Throne of David-or where ever it leads...(Cont:Satan Cast out of Heaveen)

[John146]

Well, at present it isn't though. I mean, I think in it we can see that the Jews desire to bring their Messiah, which requires what in their mind, is obedience to God. And at present obedience to God would be to come to Christ.

But what the future, on down the road may be involved regarding this temple...idk...will it continue on into the Millennium, obviously requiring cleansing as it will be defiled by the AC...Idk

Sorry, but I don't see how what you're saying here addresses my question. What exactly would make a temple built by unbelieving Jews "the temple of God"?

All I would say with more certainty is that from what is said here and there, a temple is needed.

For what exactly?

And that Ezekiel's temple is yet future and a real temple.

Where real sin offerings will be performed? Why would there be any need for future sin offerings in light of Christ's once for all sin offering?

Niether the one in Revelation or the one in Ezekiel are speaking of anything other than an actual temple.

What does that mean? When you say "actual" do you mean "physical"? What does scripture say is the temple of God right now?

[quiet dove]

Sorry, but I don't see how what you're saying here addresses my question. What exactly would make a temple built by unbelieving Jews "the temple of God"?

It would require cleansing, and it would require God bringing the whole issue about

For what exactly?

One place is 2 Thess 2:4

Where real sin offerings will be performed? Why would there be any need for future sin offerings in light of Christ's once for all sin offering?

This is going to take us in a way other direction...and again, just what Ezekiel says but I do not claim to have all those answers, though we have been over discussion on it in other threads

What does that mean? When you say "actual" do you mean "physical"? What does scripture say is the temple of God right now?

Scripture says the Church, the believers, via the indwelling Spirit are the temple of God, however, that is not to claim that God cannot exist outside of the Church, nor does it sufficiently explain the many Millennial prophecies found in the OT. I know you apply them as so, but I disagree

If the believers are the only temple of God, then in 2 Thess the AC sits in believers, and that simply cannot be the case. Either a person is indwelt with the Spirit or they are not, the indwelling Spirit sealing them because they are believers and thus the temple of God...so if the AC is sitting in a person, they cannot be the temple of God as a believer is said to be. Besides, the believer being the temple of God means that the believer serves God, the believers body being submitted to the service of the Lord, a living sacrifice unto the Lord. But it certainly does not mean that the persons body is the place or only place that God can be, is, we are said to be indwelt and sealed by the Spirit, not the Father...

A building can be built to be a temple of the true God but heaven only knows what is going on in some of those buildings. The AC could sit in the temple of God only if said temple is a building claimed to be a temple of God,...it cannot be believers...a person cannot be both indwelt and sealed to God and also have the spirit of the AC within them

Using the whole believers are the temple of God argument against a building does not hold water for me....

[John146]

It would require cleansing, and it would require God bringing the whole issue about

Where does scripture speak of that taking place? Of what use would God have for a temple at this point when we are the temple of God? He dwells in us now. He has no use for physical temples anymore.

One place is 2 Thess 2:4

No, I'm asking what purpose a physical temple of God would serve at this point. That verse doesn't answer that question.

This is going to take us in a way other direction...and again, just what Ezekiel says but I do not claim to have all those answers, though we have been over discussion on it in other threads

Do you think it's important to take the time to try to find those answers? I personally could not just say "well, that's what it says so that's it" without being able to reconcile it with the rest of scripture at all.

Scripture says the Church, the believers, via the indwelling Spirit are the temple of God,

Thank you. So, what do we need any other temple of God for at this point?

however, that is not to claim that God cannot exist outside of the Church, nor does it sufficiently explain the many Millennial prophecies found in the OT.

Yeah, I think it does, actually, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on that, I guess.

If the believers are the only temple of God, then in 2 Thess the AC sits in believers, and that simply cannot be the case.

I believe you are reading the text too literally. For one thing "the man of sin" does not have to refer to an individual but can refer to sinful men in general. Similar to how "the man of God" in 2 Tim 3:17 is not referring to an individual but godly men (people) in general. Also, you know that figurative language is sometimes used in scripture. In Isaiah 66 it says heaven is God's throne. We know He doesn't literally phsycially sit on heaven. Other scripture refers to "Satan's seat" and we know that's not a physical chair. And so on. So, I believe sitting in the temple of God is a figurative reference to sinful men being among or within the church and deceiving people. Similar to this:

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

See how Paul warned them that even "of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them". Even among the church people of our own selves rise up claiming to have all the answers (thereby basically claiming to be God) and telling people they have the truth people need rather than the teachings of the church being the truth.

Either a person is indwelt with the Spirit or they are not, the indwelling Spirit sealing them because they are believers and thus the temple of God...so if the AC is sitting in a person, they cannot be the temple of God as a believer is said to be.

I'm not saying the AC could sit in a person. It's your doctrine that says 2 Thess 2 is speaking of an individual Antichrist, not mine.

Using the whole believers are the temple of God argument against a building does not hold water for me....

I don't understand that. We are the temple of God so why does there ever need to be any other temple of God in the future? I'd like an explanation as to what possible use a physical temple building could be in the future and what would qualify it to be called the temple of God.

Acts 7:48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, 49Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest?

God came to meet man in temples made with hands in the past but that is no longer necessary as He dwells in us now. So, I don't see any possibility of Him dwelling in a physical temple in the future again since that is unnecessary.

[boangry]

Well, this (the text in bold above) means that the Son Jesus has been exalted above the heavens to the greatest position of Authority and Power--this is what the phrase "the right hand of God" is expressing. Thus, the following events in the verse below has happened; let's look at it:

Rev. 12
10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now

1) the salvation, and
2) the power, and
3) the kingdom of our God and
4) the authority of His Christ

have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

Yes?

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

First off I agree that the events in rev 12:10 have happened but I think Satan was cast out at the beginning of the Lords life and think the fallen Satan was an instigator of the events at Bethlehem with the killing of the male children, therefore rev 12:10 applies to Jesus during his life and ministry.

If you think Satan was cast out at the lords ascension, then I can understand why you try and apply rev 12:10 to now, however I disagree for numerous reasons.

I think the timing of the pronouncement coincides with the Lords life and ministry for it was Christ all these attributes are for, for He is the salvation, He is the power, He is the kingdom, He is the authority, does scripture support this?

1. Salvation

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;


Simeon when he seen the Lord in the flesh, had seen salvation
Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Then down to verse 30 Simeon sees Jesus
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation

2. Power … Jesus showed forth his power with mighty signs and wonders, power proving He was God with authority and power, He commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

Luk 4:36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

He had power over death!! to prove He was God

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

3. Kingdom… Jesus is the rightful King of Israel and their king and kingdom was at hand!

Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.


4. Authority… Jesus came with authority and power but he has now gone but as ambassadors we are not just representatives as ambassadors in the world today have, but we are ambassadors with the king’s seal like in Daniels day.

Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

So we have been sealed with the Holy spirit, it gives us authority to act on our Lords behalf and to work as able.

Now remember you said "Now of course, the complete consummation of the Kingdom has not happened yet.

Thus, some saints would say "the Kingdom of God has come already--but not yet."

lol Is this saying not from a pre mill? it makes perfect sense the kingdom had come with its king, when the king left to be exalted above the heavens, isnt it strange he didnt set up his kingdom on earth, I equate Davids throne as the earthly throne, So the kingdom had come, it was, is not, yet will be... fits in perfectly with a gap at the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week.

anyway this post is getting to long, but when I go through the 4 points of rev12:10 and see if they fit now with the age we are in now, scripture again (to me anyway) is pointing not only to now but to the will be or the consummation that has not happened yet! for example

1. Salvation

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

In other words he is not coming the second time to deal with sin because it is already dealt with, and even though we all have the offer of salvation now to accept the offer of eternal life to become subjects of the kingdom of God, when He returns that offer will be fully realised, or we will be glorified, and physically transferred to the Lords kingdom, to rule with Him, To no longer be in this domain etc
Oh and of course having a pre-tribulation rapture perspective would definitely help but does not limit it to

If salvation has happened, how can it be for those who look for him to appear with salvation?

[billy-brown 2]

Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

First off I agree that the events in rev 12:10 have happened but I think Satan was cast out at the beginning of the Lords life and think the fallen Satan was an instigator of the events at Bethlehem with the killing of the male children, therefore rev 12:10 applies to Jesus during his life and ministry.

If you think Satan was cast out at the lords ascension, then I can understand why you try and apply rev 12:10 to now, however I disagree for numerous reasons.

I think the timing of the pronouncement coincides with the Lords life and ministry for it was Christ all these attributes are for, for He is the salvation, He is the power, He is the kingdom, He is the authority, does scripture support this?

Well, here's what Jesus said:

John 12
31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

And notice John's comment on the text above:

John 12
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Yep.

And so, the "casting out of Satan" required the death of Christ on the cross for you and I. Also, all authority had been given unto Christ after He rose from the dead:

Matt. 28
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

And of course, Jesus was Immortal at that point, yes? In other words, He had received Indestructible Everlasting Kingdom Dominion and Glory (the IEKDG) to rule as KING/PRIEST OVER THE KINGDOM OF GOD per Dan. 7:13-14:

Dan. 7
13“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

14“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

And of course, this means that Jesus could not have had "All authority" before His ascension. And if Jesus had "All authority" and so on, then it means that He had "the Kingdom of God" as well; I mean, He came up to the Ancient of Days to receive just that in the applicable verses, yes?

Therefore, we have two elements of the passage from Rev. 12:10 that Jesus received upon His ascension to the Right Hand of the Power (in bold below):

1) the salvation, and
2) the power, and
3) the kingdom of our God and
4) the authority of His Christ

But these four things above are interconnected to each other absolutely. After all, the authority of His Christ makes it possible for salvation to occur for men--Jesus IS salvation, yes? You are aware that Satan cannot stop anyone from the salvation experience once the Gospel is received, yes? And of course, this is due to the power of the Spirit of Christ; thus, Satan has been cast out and bound.

Yep.

And the "sitting at the Right Hand of the Power" is "the coming on the clouds" to receive the IEKDG:

Mark 14
60The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?”
61But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
63Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?
64“You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

(go to the next post . . .)

[boangry]

Well, here's what Jesus said:

john 12
31 “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

And notice John's comment on the text above:

John 12
33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Yep.

And so, the "casting out of Satan" required the death of Christ on the cross for you and I. Also, all authority had been given unto Christ after He rose from the dead:



And of course, Jesus was Immortal at that point, yes? In other words, He had received Indestructible Everlasting Kingdom Dominion and Glory (the IEKDG) to rule as KING/PRIEST OVER THE KINGDOM OF GOD per Dan. 7:13-14:



And of course, this means that Jesus could not have had "All authority" before His ascension. And if Jesus had "All authority" and so on, then it means that He had "the Kingdom of God" as well; I mean, He came up to the Ancient of Days to receive just that in the applicable verses, yes?

Therefore, we have two elements of the passage from Rev. 12:10 that Jesus received upon His ascension to the Right Hand of the Power (in bold below):


But these four things above are interconnected to each other absolutely. After all, the authority of His Christ makes it possible for salvation to occur for men--Jesus IS salvation, yes? You are aware that Satan cannot stop anyone from the salvation experience once the Gospel is received, yes? And of course, this is due to the power of the Spirit of Christ; thus, Satan has been cast out and bound.

BB2 Jesus also said...
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

He is casting out the prince of this world, He is not casting out the prince of heaven! He wasnt coming from heaven, Satan entered Judas previously, Satan is on earth, Judas was coming to place him into the hands of the authority's

Jesus entered Satans house which is the world, not heaven;
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
according to you did Jesus enter heaven Satans house to bind him and plunder his goods?

The guy, you know who was before creation and by him and through him all things were made through his power, is now immortal, lol


14“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

This is true and it is the kingdom of heaven, which we are now apart of the everlasting kingdom, the kingdom has another couple of stages to go through, It will soon envelope Israel on earth, and its kingdom will be everlasting and know only peace, then after 1000 years it will envelope the entire world and the kingdom will be consummated.

Ill try and explain in another way

The king of England decided to capture France and sent His Son to enlarge his kingdom, He knew some of France’s subjects are wanting to be under his rule for he was a good and just king. So he journeyed alone without his army, for the lords of France also knew the king of England was a legitimate heir to their throne and they would accept him and put him in rule. However to make a long story short they rejected Him. And sentenced him to death, He returned home in what appeared to be defeat, But the father Gave him the Throne of England and abdicated all power authority and judgment to his Son the Heir J however some of the subjects of France throughout all the provinces still accepted him as the rightful king of France and the king of England sealed them with an invisible mark that would show up under his scanners, for he was going to return with his army and set up his kingdom in the capital province. These marks or seals translated or conferred the subjects of France into subjects of England, they were now citizens of England. They are now dead to France, while still in France for France was not an everlasting kingdom and they waited for the return of the king. This seal(holy spirit)gives authority for the subjects of England to tell the other French citizens the truth concerning the throne and the soon return. This can result in persecution and death……..ok trying to keep it short…

So this world is not the everlasting kingdom ie it is not a part of the kingdom of God....even though we are now subjects and fellow heirs of the kingdom. This world is not part of the kingdom it will be destroyed...

[billy-brown 2]

(This is the continuation of the last post . . .)

Thus, some saints would say "the Kingdom of God has come already--but not yet."

lol Is this saying not from a pre mill? it makes perfect sense the kingdom had come with its king, when the king left to be exalted above the heavens, isnt it strange he didnt set up his kingdom on earth, I equate Davids throne as the earthly throne, So the kingdom had come, it was, is not, yet will be... fits in perfectly with a gap at the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week.

anyway this post is getting to long, but when I go through the 4 points of rev12:10 and see if they fit now with the age we are in now, scripture again (to me anyway) is pointing not only to now but to the will be or the consummation that has not happened yet! for example

1. Salvation

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

In other words he is not coming the second time to deal with sin because it is already dealt with, and even though we all have the offer of salvation now to accept the offer of eternal life to become subjects of the kingdom of God, when He returns that offer will be fully realised, or we will be glorified, and physically transferred to the Lords kingdom, to rule with Him, To no longer be in this domain etc
Oh and of course having a pre-tribulation rapture perspective would definitely help but does not limit it to

If salvation has happened, how can it be for those who look for him to appear with salvation?

LOL

Well, "all kinds of saints" know about the "already--but not yet" aspect and so on--because we know that if the following has not happened to us:

Col. 1
13For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

then there is no way for the following to happen for us:

Rom. 8
23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

And the Apostle Paul wrote both passages by the Spirit, yes?

In other words, we have salvation right now--but not yet, because bodily immortality--the redemption of our body--is the "salvation" reward for our faith in Christ during this age. And so, the "redemption of our body" is indeed the "salvation" which is mentioned in this verse:

Heb. 9
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

And the "salvation" in Heb. 9:28 is the "redemption of our body" in Rom. 8:23-25.

Do you see what I am saying?

And so, it took the death and resurrection/ascension of Christ to defeat Satan, because Jesus became Immortal thereby; this is what made "salvation" a possibility for those who believe--as taught here:

I John 3
7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Heb. 2
14Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He (Jesus) Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
15and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives.
16For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
17Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

And notice also in Heb. 2:17-18 that Jesus became our HIGH PRIEST after His death--and not before. This means that Jesus became the Immortal HIGH PRIEST:

Heb. 7
23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

as well as the Immortal KING at the same time--after His death:

I Tim. 6
13I charge you in the presence of God, who gives life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate,
14that you keep the commandment without stain or reproach until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
16who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

And Jesus as our Immortal HIGH PRIEST/KING "has taken" His Seat already--and it's at the right hand of the Power:

Heb. 8
1Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.

Mark 14
60The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?”
61But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
63Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?
64“You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

Mark 16
15And He (Jesus) said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
17“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
19So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

And the "right hand of the Power" is mentioned below as well; look carefully at the grammar:

Rev. 3 (Jesus is talking)
20‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.
21‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

Yes?

[billy-brown 2]

BB2 Jesus also said...
Joh 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Joh 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Joh 14:29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

He is casting out the prince of this world, He is not casting out the prince of heaven! He wasnt coming from heaven, Satan entered Judas previously, Satan is on earth, Judas was coming to place him into the hands of the authority's

Jesus entered Satans house which is the world, not heaven;
Mat 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
according to you did Jesus enter heaven Satans house to bind him and plunder his goods?

The guy, you know who was before creation and by him and through him all things were made through his power, is now immortal, lol

LOL

Satan does not have access to heaven AT ALL right now-he has been cast to the earth. And it was the victory of Christ at the cross that made that happen. But before the cross, Satan had access to heaven as well as earth (see Job 1)--but no more. Why?

Well, there was a war in heaven, yes? Just look at the vision below:

Rev. 12
7And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war,

8and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven.

9And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

11“And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death.

12“For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

13And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

14But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

15And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.

16But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

17So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

And besides all this, Satan has various names; one of them is the prince of the power of the air . .

Eph. 2
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.

And so . . .

(go to the next post . . .)

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

14“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

This is true and it is the kingdom of heaven, which we are now apart of the everlasting kingdom, the kingdom has another couple of stages to go through, It will soon envelope Israel on earth, and its kingdom will be everlasting and know only peace, then after 1000 years it will envelope the entire world and the kingdom will be consummated.

Ill try and explain in another way

The king of England decided to capture France and sent His Son to enlarge his kingdom, He knew some of France’s subjects are wanting to be under his rule for he was a good and just king. So he journeyed alone without his army, for the lords of France also knew the king of England was a legitimate heir to their throne and they would accept him and put him in rule. However to make a long story short they rejected Him. And sentenced him to death, He returned home in what appeared to be defeat, But the father Gave him the Throne of England and abdicated all power authority and judgment to his Son the Heir J however some of the subjects of France throughout all the provinces still accepted him as the rightful king of France and the king of England sealed them with an invisible mark that would show up under his scanners, for he was going to return with his army and set up his kingdom in the capital province. These marks or seals translated or conferred the subjects of France into subjects of England, they were now citizens of England. They are now dead to France, while still in France for France was not an everlasting kingdom and they waited for the return of the king. This seal(holy spirit)gives authority for the subjects of England to tell the other French citizens the truth concerning the throne and the soon return. This can result in persecution and death……..ok trying to keep it short…

So this world is not the everlasting kingdom ie it is not a part of the kingdom of God....even though we are now subjects and fellow heirs of the kingdom. This world is not part of the kingdom it will be destroyed...

boangry,

Are you aware that any Kingdom has a King?

Indeed, we know already that an earthly Kingdom would have an earthly, mortal King to rule over it.

But the Everlasting Kingdom of Dan. 7:14 was given to someone who is matched appropriately to it--someone who is Immortal. Indeed, we would not expect an Everlasting Kingdom to be given to any mortal at all.

Why?

Well, a mortal would have to die at some point; thus, that person would have a relinquishment of their rulership. But notice this phrase in the verse (in red):

Dan. 7
14“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Yep. To Him was given the IEKDG . . .

To who was given the IEKDG?

Well, let's look at the previous verse of Dan 7:13 and we will see it:

Dan. 7
13“I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.

“And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom, . . .

Yep.

The IEKDG was given to someone who came UP with the clouds of heaven--even one like a Son of Man. Does this sound familiar? Here we go:

Mark 14
60The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?”
61But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
63Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?
64“You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

Yep.

In other words, Jesus was anticipating the "SITTING and COMING" of Dan. 7:13-14; He told the high priest of that time (Caiaphas) that "you will see" (or understand) that I will be exalted above the heavens to the greatest position of Authority and Power.

And to do this, Jesus had to be Immortal.

Thus, Jesus rose from the dead Immortal, led captivity captive (see Eph. 4), and "came with the Clouds of Heaven UP to sit at the right hand of the Power"--and thus He received the IEKDG already.

In other words, this is what the phrase "the right hand of God" is expressing in other parts of the Bible. And notice when Jesus ascended to the "right hand of God" (or similar) below:

Heb. 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

Heb. 12
1Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Col. 1
1Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
2Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.
3For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
4When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

Mark 16
15And He (Jesus) said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16“He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
17“These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
18they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
19So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

Yep. After He rose from the dead. Thus, the Everlasting Kingdom is NOW--it does not have a time limit on it at all (as in "1000 years" and so on). And this Everlasting Kingdom is administered right now by the KING/HIGH PRIEST Jesus from the heavenly tabernacle:

Heb. 8
1Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.”
6But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

And so, the Everlasting Kingdom is a DOMAIN where the KING/PRIEST Jesus rules and administers mediation ministry on our behalf. And one day, the wicked will be taken out of the Kingdom:

Matt. 13
40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Yes?

[billy-brown 2]

Ok, sorry. I should not have guessed at your views....my bad

Many do apply it as to being the Church.....


I agree, but that is all I was trying to say...by God's ability it will be built as were the first two, and God used men to build the first two.

And I agree, Ezekiel was to tell the captives the vision of the temple...but I do believe this temple will be built because just as Israel will be brought back to her God, by God, so will this temple be built. In other words, God will accomplish His purpose, and this vision is no less to be fulfilled than the many other visions that have or will be fulfilled. Not because of who we, or they are...but because of who God is and what He has declared via prophecy is to be accomplished.

Like I told john146...I make no claim to be able to answer all the questions regarding the temple issues...but...based on the set standard of God's fulfilling prophecy to the minute details, I believe this to be prophecy and thus to be fulfilled in the same manner as those that have already been fulfilled...not because I understand all things about them, but because of who God is...and His track record regarding the fulfillment of prophecy


Well, this makes sense to me from something else I said to john146, and that was that the temple of the "end times" would not be a temple sanctioned by God...I think I was only partially right in saying that. What I mean is, a temple will be built that was not a "thus sayeth the Lord" command...as you just pointed out regarding Ezekiel...however...if a temple is built, and it will be, that temple is defiled, and it will be...and if that temple then remains into the Millennial and it to be used and brought to this temple described in Ezekiel..of course it would have to be cleansed from it's defilement...but then we have a temple built, that was built with out a "thus sayeth the Lord"...but the vision of this prophecy fulfilled. And with Christ here, this temple of Revelation(and elsewhere) would be cleansed and useable...?




The temple would have to be cleansed and sanctioned, which Christ would certainly be able to accomplished...after all, it is not the temple that makes the people holy, it is the people who make the temple holy...So those who enter the Millennial, those Jews, will have accepted Christ, and thus be back in obedience to God...like the 144K of Revelation, and the many more that survive...

Plus also, as you bring up about no place for an actual physical throne...if there is already a temple, that temple is cleansed, there will be a place.

I think what we need is one of the diagrams out there...I don't know where...of the temple that Israel wants to build...and then someone, maybe you..(not me I know)smart enough to figure out if it fits the Ezekiel description. I think the Ezekiel one is to big for the area...but I am not sure...but I guess whatever temple is built could be added to for the other areas described in Ezekiel...Idk.

Like I said, regardless of my not having all the answers...I fully do believe the Ezekiel temple will be built. And I believe, based on end times prophecies regarding the AC, that a temple must be built and exist during the Tribulation...but I am not claiming to have all the answers...

Well, I certainly don't have all the answers either. And of course, I could be wrong completely on all of this . . .

Nevertheless, it is important to realize that the temple vision of Ezekiel was given at a time when there was NO EARTHLY PHYSICAL BRICK-AND-MORTAR facility on the earth.

Yep.

I mean, after all, the vision was given during year 25 of the captivity in Babylon; Judah was there for 70 years, yes?

Ezekiel 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.

2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.

3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.

4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

5And behold, there was a wall on the outside of the temple all around, and in the man’s hand was a measuring rod of six cubits, each of which was a cubit and a handbreadth. So he measured the thickness of the wall, one rod; and the height, one rod.

etc . . .

And so, obedience to the Law of Moses requires a Temple. And so, I would think that if one was to build a temple; why not use the diagram in Ezekiel 40-48 for when the people of Judah would come out of captivity? I mean, look at the detail here (for example):

Ezekiel 41
5Then he measured the wall of the temple, six cubits; and the width of the side chambers, four cubits, all around about the house on every side.

6The side chambers were in three stories, one above another, and thirty in each story; and the side chambers extended to the wall which stood on their inward side all around, that they might be fastened, and not be fastened into the wall of the temple itself.

7The side chambers surrounding the temple were wider at each successive story. Because the structure surrounding the temple went upward by stages on all sides of the temple, therefore the width of the temple increased as it went higher; and thus one went up from the lowest story to the highest by way of the second story.

8I saw also that the house had a raised platform all around; the foundations of the side chambers were a full rod of six long cubits in height.

9The thickness of the outer wall of the side chambers was five cubits. But the free space between the side chambers belonging to the temple

10and the outer chambers was twenty cubits in width all around the temple on every side.

11The doorways of the side chambers toward the free space consisted of one doorway toward the north and another doorway toward the south; and the width of the free space was five cubits all around.

etc . . .

Interesting . . .

And so, you do realize that the next "earthly" physical temple that was built for the exiles from Babylonian captivity was Zerrubabbel's--and that temple did not look at all like Ezekiel's temple. Now why?

Well, because Ezekiel's temple was never meant to be built: it was a simple VISION which provided specific instructions to the people of Judah to OBEY the Law of Moses. And it seems that Ezekiel was to declare aspects of VISION on condition only--as implied below:

Ezekiel 43
6Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me.

7He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,

8by setting their threshold by My threshold and their door post beside My door post, with only the wall between Me and them. And they have defiled My holy name by their abominations which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger.

9“Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever.

10“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.

11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.

12“This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Interesting . . .

[quiet dove]

Well, I certainly don't have all the answers either. And of course, I could be wrong completely on all of this . . .

Nevertheless, it is important to realize that the temple vision of Ezekiel was given at a time when there was NO EARTHLY PHYSICAL BRICK-AND-MORTAR facility on the earth.

Yep.

I mean, after all, the vision was given during year 25 of the captivity in Babylon; Judah was there for 70 years, yes?

Ezekiel 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.

2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.

3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.

4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

5And behold, there was a wall on the outside of the temple all around, and in the man’s hand was a measuring rod of six cubits, each of which was a cubit and a handbreadth. So he measured the thickness of the wall, one rod; and the height, one rod.

etc . . .

And so, obedience to the Law of Moses requires a Temple. And so, I would think that if one was to build a temple; why not use the diagram in Ezekiel 40-48 for when the people of Judah would come out of captivity? I mean, look at the detail here (for example):

Ezekiel 41
5Then he measured the wall of the temple, six cubits; and the width of the side chambers, four cubits, all around about the house on every side.

6The side chambers were in three stories, one above another, and thirty in each story; and the side chambers extended to the wall which stood on their inward side all around, that they might be fastened, and not be fastened into the wall of the temple itself.

7The side chambers surrounding the temple were wider at each successive story. Because the structure surrounding the temple went upward by stages on all sides of the temple, therefore the width of the temple increased as it went higher; and thus one went up from the lowest story to the highest by way of the second story.

8I saw also that the house had a raised platform all around; the foundations of the side chambers were a full rod of six long cubits in height.

9The thickness of the outer wall of the side chambers was five cubits. But the free space between the side chambers belonging to the temple

10and the outer chambers was twenty cubits in width all around the temple on every side.

11The doorways of the side chambers toward the free space consisted of one doorway toward the north and another doorway toward the south; and the width of the free space was five cubits all around.

etc . . .

Interesting . . .

And so, you do realize, that the next "earthly" physical temple that was built for the exiles from Babylonian captivity was Zerrubabbel's--and that temple did not look at all like Ezekiel's temple. Now why?

Well, because Ezekiel's temple was never meant to be built: it was a simple VISION which provided specific instructions to the people of Judah to OBEY the Law of Moses. And it seems that Ezekiel was to declare aspects of VISION on condition only--as implied below:

Ezekiel 43
6Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me.

7He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My throne and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the corpses of their kings when they die,

8by setting their threshold by My threshold and their door post beside My door post, with only the wall between Me and them. And they have defiled My holy name by their abominations which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger.

9“Now let them put away their harlotry and the corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever.

10“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.

11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.

12“This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Interesting . . .

I agree, the vision was given during the captivity...but I believe it was given to inspire the exiled Israelites. There is a consistency within the prophets that though God is displeased and has some harsh words towards Israel, He never leaves them without encouragment regarding the end result and their future. I believe this temple is a shining example of such...and I realize it was not the temple built by the returning exiles...thus, it is still yet future...There is no glimpses within prophecy that are not to be fulfilled...imho, this temple included

[billy-brown 2]

1. Salvation
Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;


Simeon when he seen the Lord in the flesh, had seen salvation
Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.
Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Then down to verse 30 Simeon sees Jesus
Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation

2. Power … Jesus showed forth his power with mighty signs and wonders, power proving He was God with authority and power, He commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

Luk 4:36 And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

He had power over death!! to prove He was God

Joh 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

3. Kingdom… Jesus is the rightful King of Israel and their king and kingdom was at hand!

Luk 11:20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.


4. Authority… Jesus came with authority and power but he has now gone but as ambassadors we are not just representatives as ambassadors in the world today have, but we are ambassadors with the king’s seal like in Daniels day.

Mar 13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

So we have been sealed with the Holy spirit, it gives us authority to act on our Lords behalf and to work as able.

boangry,

This is some good thinking here, and I would have though the same about these things from the following verse:

Rev. 12
10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying,
“Now

1) the salvation, and
2) the power, and
3) the kingdom of our God and
4) the authority of His Christ

have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.

However, the "accuser of the brethern" would not have been thrown down if these four things have not come. And look at what the dragon (the "accuser of our brethern") began to do when he was cast to the earth:

Rev. 12
13And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child.

14But the two wings of the great eagle were given to the woman, so that she could fly into the wilderness to her place, where she was nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent.

15And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.

16But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

17So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Yep. Persecution and "war" with the people of faith--as here also:

Rev. 13
5There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.
7It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him.
8All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
9If anyone has an ear, let him hear.
10If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

And so, which "person of faith" is left out of all of that? And apparently, Paul concurs generally:

II Tim. 3
12Indeed, all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will be persecuted.

[billy-brown 2]

I agree, the vision was given during the captivity...but I believe it was given to inspire the exiled Israelites. There is a consistency within the prophets that though God is displeased and has some harsh words towards Israel, He never leaves them without encouragment regarding the end result and their future. I believe this temple is a shining example of such...and I realize it was not the temple built by the returning exiles...thus, it is still yet future...There is no glimpses within prophecy that are not to be fulfilled...imho, this temple included

Thanks QD,

Might we look at these verses again--especially the text in bold?

Ezekiel 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

Eze. 43
10“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.
12“This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Yep. (Did you see it?)

These verses indicate specifically that Ezekiel was asked to "declare to the house of Israel all that you see" so that "they may observe its entire design and all its statues and do them" and so on. In other words, Ezekiel was asked to provide instruction for Israel to do the statues of God; that would be the Law of Moses--and they were in captivity for not doing the Law of Moses to begin with, yes?

II Chron. 36
15The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;
16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
17Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
18All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
19Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

And so, one has to wonder how much "ashamed" feeling the people of Israel had while they were in captivity; do you see that word "If" in the scripture below . . . ?

Eze. 43
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. . . .

[quiet dove]

Thanks QD,

Might we look at these verses again--especially the text in bold?

Ezekiel 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

Eze. 43
10“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.
12“This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Yep. (Did you see it?)

These verses indicate specifically that Ezekiel was asked to "declare to the house of Israel all that you see" so that "they may observe its entire design and all its statues and do them" and so on. In other words, Ezekiel was asked to provide instruction for Israel to do the statues of God; that would be the Law of Moses--and they were in captivity for not doing the Law of Moses to begin with, yes?

II Chron. 36
15The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;
16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
17Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
18All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
19Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

And so, one has to wonder how much "ashamed" feeling the people of Israel had while they were in captivity; do you see that word "If" in the scripture below . . . ?

Eze. 43
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. . . .

When the exiles returned, few in number returned in comparison to those who stayed...again, God's plan being accomplished does not depend on men, but God, and God has declared a certain time upon the earth with His Son Jesus ruling over the nations, visibly, and all those nations worshiping His Son, the King of kings...

If we stay within the context of Ezekiel in this section of scripture, God is not making it all contingent upon Israel, but is telling Ezekiel what will be. God clearly tells Ezekiel that this temple, not only will exist, but is one He will dwell in....just as He has in Solomon's temple.

The only thing depending on the Israelites is if they were ashamed, Ezekiel was to show them the plans, tell them what God said would be, and considering we have that written down, Ezekiel obviously gave forth the word from God. But in verse 11, you are not keeping with the context to all the sudden change course making all contingent upon Israel as opposed to their being shown the plan if they were ashamed, a closer look shows that this is not a contingent upon Israel statement, but a statement declaring that Israel will indeed "do them", which again, is still yet future. Just as God declares His presence will be in this temple, He declares also that Israel will keep His statutes and follow His ordinances in complete obedience. It is not a statement made that "if" they will observe them and do them...it is a statement declaring that they "will" observe and do them, just as described in Ezekiel, and within the context of all that God told Ezekiel in these chapters.

[billy-brown 2]

When the exiles returned, few in number returned in comparison to those who stayed...again, God's plan being accomplished does not depend on men, but God, and God has declared a certain time upon the earth with His Son Jesus ruling over the nations, visibly, and all those nations worshiping His Son, the King of kings...

If we stay within the context of Ezekiel in this section of scripture, God is not making it all contingent upon Israel, but is telling Ezekiel what will be. God clearly tells Ezekiel that this temple, not only will exist, but is one He will dwell in....just as He has in Solomon's temple.

The text in bold above is, of course, in accordance with your synthesis--which is very fine (and so on). Let's go further:

The only thing depending on the Israelites is if they were ashamed, Ezekiel was to show them the plans, tell them what God said would be, and considering we have that written down, Ezekiel obviously gave forth the word from God.

Yes, I suppose that it is written down and so on. Let's go further:

But in verse 11, you are not keeping with the context to all the sudden change course making all contingent upon Israel as opposed to their being shown the plan if they were ashamed, a closer look shows that this is not a contingent upon Israel statement, but a statement declaring that Israel will indeed "do them", which again, is still yet future. Just as God declares His presence will be in this temple, He declares also that Israel will keep His statutes and follow His ordinances in complete obedience. It is not a statement made that "if" they will observe them and do them...it is a statement declaring that they "will" observe and do them, just as described in Ezekiel, and within the context of all that God told Ezekiel in these chapters.

OK.

Are you aware of the implications of what you are saying? Let's see . . . here is an example of a portion of the text that they will "observe and do" (as you would say):

Eze. 45
21“In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
22“On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.
23“During the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering.
24“He shall provide as a grain offering an ephah with a bull, an ephah with a ram and a hin of oil with an ephah.
25“In the seventh month, on the fifteenth day of the month, at the feast, he shall provide like this, seven days for the sin offering, the burnt offering, the grain offering and the oil."

But yet, our HIGH PRIEST/KING Jesus has accomplished the following already (see below):

Heb. 10
11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
He then says,

17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

And so, I feel that you could not have meant what you are expressing . . . and this is just one of many aspects of your dialectic to receive additional commentary in subsequent posts . . .



(go to the next post . . .)