Throne of David-or where ever it leads...(Cont:Satan Cast out of Heaveen)

[quiet dove]

The text in bold above is, of course, in accordance with your synthesis--which is very fine (and so on). Let's go further:



Yes, I suppose that it is written down and so on. Let's go further:



OK.

Are you aware of the implications of what you are saying? Let's see . . . here is an example of a portion of the text that they will "observe and do" (as you would say):

Eze. 45
21“In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread shall be eaten.
22“On that day the prince shall provide for himself and all the people of the land a bull for a sin offering.
23“During the seven days of the feast he shall provide as a burnt offering to the LORD seven bulls and seven rams without blemish on every day of the seven days, and a male goat daily for a sin offering.
24“He shall provide as a grain offering an ephah with a bull, an ephah with a ram and a hin of oil with an ephah.
25“In the seventh month, on the fifteenth day of the month, at the feast, he shall provide like this, seven days for the sin offering, the burnt offering, the grain offering and the oil."

But yet, our HIGH PRIEST/KING Jesus has accomplished the following already (see below):

Heb. 10
11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins;
12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,
13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET.
14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
15And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying,

16“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
He then says,

17“AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”

18Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

And so, I feel that you could not have meant what you are expressing . . . and this is just one of many aspects of your dialectic to receive additional commentary in subsequent posts . . .



(go to the next post . . .)

I understand that Jesus is the one who paid in full, the sacrificed Lamb, for sin.

However, there are several other things also clear in scripture
--the sacrificial system, the blood of animals, never did what Jesus was the only one able to do. The blood of animals never cleansed the first man.
--there, imo, are multiple passages throughout the prophets and else where that speak of the time that the Messiah, King, will rule the earth

So there are only a few options as to what to do with all those passages, including the ones regarding the future temple and sacrifices. One can either consider them allegorical then apply them in some way, or one can take them as being written literally and to be fulfilled as they appear when taken written literally.

Our lack of understanding, or grasping God's purpose in the resuming of animal sacrifices is no reason to then say it will not happen...especially when we also know that animal sacrifices never did what only Jesus could do. Can I give a definite explanation, no...but that again is no reason to reject the possibility.

Many believe the resuming of the sacrifices is as a teacher and reminder. And there is another thought that because mortal men will be serving in the temple, mortal men will again be entering into the presence of God, God's presence will again be amongst mortal men...the sacrifices are not a matter of eternal cleansing and life, "born again"...they are a matter of the flesh...the ceremonial and ritual cleansing of the flesh.

Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood of animals never cleansed men, nor did the blood of animals ever give eternal life....those of old who believed God, those of old with faith, are cleansed and have eternal life the same way we do, the Blood of the Lamb...not animals.

At present, we do not enter the presence of God within our mortal bodies...we enter spiritually and that through Jesus. Our flesh does not enter into the Most Holy, or the temple in heaven.....

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

I understand that Jesus is the one who paid in full, the sacrificed Lamb, for sin.

However, there are several other things also clear in scripture
--the sacrificial system, the blood of animals, never did what Jesus was the only one able to do. The blood of animals never cleansed the first man.
--there, imo, are multiple passages throughout the prophets and else where that speak of the time that the Messiah, King, will rule the earth

So there are only a few options as to what to do with all those passages, including the ones regarding the future temple and sacrifices. One can either consider them allegorical then apply them in some way, or one can take them as being written literally and to be fulfilled as they appear when taken written literally.

LOL

But there is a third option: why not simply suggest that . . . it's a literal VISION? I mean, after all, that is what the scripture indicates here:

Eze. 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.

Also, who said that all VISIONS must be "allegorical" and so on?

Continuing:

Eze. 40
3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

OK.

Now remember, Ezekiel was under the power of the Lord in the verses above; he was transported in a VISION state while in Babylon during the 25th year of the captivity for the entirety of the 9 chapters of Eze. 40-48, yes?

And so, some questions:

1) How do we know that the VISION was shared at all with the captives in Babylon of those days--and while they were there?

2) Were the captives ashamed at all during the ensuing 45 years of the captivity?

Interesting . . .

Continuing:

Our lack of understanding, or grasping God's purpose in the resuming of animal sacrifices is no reason to then say it will not happen...especially when we also know that animal sacrifices never did what only Jesus could do. Can I give a definite explanation, no...but that again is no reason to reject the possibility.

Many believe the resuming of the sacrifices is as a teacher and reminder. And there is another thought that because mortal men will be serving in the temple, mortal men will again be entering into the presence of God, God's presence will again be amongst mortal men...the sacrifices are not a matter of eternal cleansing and life, "born again"...they are a matter of the flesh...the ceremonial and ritual cleansing of the flesh.

B]Heb 9:11[/B] But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The blood of animals never cleansed men, nor did the blood of animals ever give eternal life....those of old who believed God, those of old with faith, are cleansed and have eternal life the same way we do, the Blood of the Lamb...not animals.

At present, we do not enter the presence of God within our mortal bodies...we enter spiritually and that through Jesus. Our flesh does not enter into the Most Holy, or the temple in heaven.....

LOL

You know, it is interesting to notice that we are both saying that these chapters of Eze. 40-48 are instructions to a people--I am saying that the people to be instructed are the captives in Babylon of those days, while you are saying that "many" believe that the "resuming of the sacrifices" is to teach and remind in the future from now and so on.

Interesting, yes?

However, all saints will be "immortal physically" at the return of Christ--this is how death is abolished. And our HIGH PRIEST/KING Christ Jesus is the "first fruits" of that. Therefore, there can not be any death and mortality after that; all will either be immortal with God, or be separated from God eternally in the second death. And the second death is the furnace (or lake) of fire:

Matt. 13
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And the HIGH PRIEST/KING Jesus is ever living to mediate for the saints--that they receive all of this "bodily immortality" aspect at His second coming. And so--with all this in mind--just look at the sacrifice of OUR HIGH PRIEST/JESUS Jesus for all time below:

Heb. 7
26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

And please notice the next verse as well:

Heb. 7
28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Yep.

Thus, the only "instruction" that men need is one which informs ALL MEN (even all people) of the possibility of receiving the finished work of the HIGH PRIEST/KING Jesus during this current age--which is the day of salvation. Why?

Because Jesus' HIGH PRIEST/KING work of sacrifice for your sins and mine was done ONE TIME.

And for ALL TIME.

Yep.

And when He comes the Second time, there will not be any mortality or death after that; the new heavens and new earth does not have that at all, yes?

II Pet. 3
7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Rev. 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

Yes?

(go to the next post . . .)

[quiet dove]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)



LOL

But there is a third option: why not simply suggest that . . . it's a literal VISION? I mean, after all, that is what the scripture indicates here:

Eze. 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.

Also, who said that all VISIONS must be "allegorical" and so on?

Continuing:

Eze. 40
3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

OK.

Now remember, Ezekiel was under the power of the Lord in the verses above; he was transported in a VISION state while in Babylon during the 25th year of the captivity for the entirety of the 9 chapters of Eze. 40-48, yes?

And so, some questions:

1) How do we know that the VISION was shared at all with the captives in Babylon of those days--and while they were there?

2) Were the captives ashamed at all during the ensuing 45 years of the captivity?

Interesting . . .

Continuing:



LOL

You know, it is interesting to notice that we are both saying that these chapters of Eze. 40-48 are instructions to a people--I am saying that the people to be instructed are the captives in Babylon of those days, while you are saying that "many" believe that the "resuming of the sacrifices" is to teach and remind in the future from now and so on.

Interesting, yes?

However, all saints will be "immortal physically" at the return of Christ--this is how death is abolished. And our HIGH PRIEST/KING Christ Jesus is the "first fruits" of that. Therefore, there can not be any death and mortality after that; all will either be immortal with God, or be separated from God eternally in the second death. And the second death is the furnace (or lake) of fire:

Matt. 13
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And the HIGH PRIEST/KING Jesus is ever living to mediate for the saints--that they receive all of this "bodily immortality" aspect at His second coming. And so--with all this in mind--just look at the sacrifice of OUR HIGH PRIEST/JESUS Jesus for all time below:

Heb. 7
26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

And please notice the next verse as well:

Heb. 7
28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Yep.

Thus, the only "instruction" that men need is one which informs ALL MEN (even all people) of the possibility of receiving the finished work of the HIGH PRIEST/KING Jesus during this current age--which is the day of salvation. Why?

Because Jesus' HIGH PRIEST/KING work of sacrifice for your sins and mine was done ONE TIME.

And for ALL TIME.

Yep.

And when He comes the Second time, there will not be any mortality or death after that; the new heavens and new earth does not have that at all, yes?

II Pet. 3
7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Rev. 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

Yes?

(go to the next post . . .)

Resurrection is what abolishes death for the individual....and of course this is because of Jesus. But if there are mortals who survive the GT... I believe scripture says there will be And the unrighteous mortals are removed..and I believe scripture says they will be. Thus leaving only righteous mortals who survive the GT to enter into the Millennial Kingdom. Of those mortals, those who are Jews, will be serving in these things of the temple, so we have mortals where the presence of God is, and a flesh issue to be dealt with. Not to mention in places such as Zechariah, Gentiles are commanded to also come and worship the King and those Gentiles will also be in mortal flesh and coming to where the presence of God the Father is.

That changes nothing regarding resurrection and those who have been resurrected, nor does it mean that those mortals who live out their lives in the Millennium will not, at some point, be resurrected to immortality...if, they too, have place their faith in Christ.

It changes nothing of who Christ is and what He has provided for those who place their faith in Him. He is still High Priest, He is still the Mediator of a better Covenant, and He is still King of kings, Lord and Savior...the promised Redeemer.

The blood of animals never did nor could they nor will they in the future be able to provide the means of cleansing, being born again, and made a new creature......they never provided the means for eternal life in the kingdom of God....faith was accounted as righteousness back then and really still is in that we must have faith in Christ Jesus and that by and through Him we are cleansed.

Animals never ever ever did accomplished that for any man, ever...

And our mortal flesh bodies do not enter the presence of God, nor can they, and they never will, thus those who have been resurrected in Christ Jesus have no need of any more animal sacrifices in order that their flesh would be ceremonially and ritually clean. However, those of the Millennial Kingdom, still in their mortal flesh, though new creatures in Christ Jesus... will have the matter of the flesh to deal with when it comes to the presence of God in this temple. And we have both already quoted and seen the passages that God tells us His presence will indeed be in that temple

And these sacrifices do not contradict what Christ did because they never did what Christ did, nor can any one find through animal sacrifices what they find through Christ. It is not possible for animal sacrifices to take anything away from Christ, if that were the case, the OT saints would have been saved through animal blood and not Christ, and we know that is not possible. The same Holy blood covers the OT "faith" ful as covers NT "faith" ful

[John146]

I understand that Jesus is the one who paid in full, the sacrificed Lamb, for sin.

However, there are several other things also clear in scripture
--the sacrificial system, the blood of animals, never did what Jesus was the only one able to do. The blood of animals never cleansed the first man.

No one disputes this. But scripture indicates that those things foreshadowed Christ's sacrifice (Heb 10:1) and were no longer necessary after He made His sacrifice. Because of that I don't understand at all how anyone can believe that animal sacrifices for sin will be performed again. They already served their purpose so what purpose could they possibly have in the future? And if you believe that Ezekiel 40-48 will be fulfilled in the future then that means you believe animal sacrifices for sin will be performed in the future. In light of Christ's once for all sacrifice I find that impossible to believe could even be possible.

--there, imo, are multiple passages throughout the prophets and else where that speak of the time that the Messiah, King, will rule the earth

And that time is now. He said Himself He has all authority in heaven an in earth (Matt 28:18). That means He rules the earth. Maybe not the way you and other premils as well as religious Jews expect the Messiah to rule, but He does rule the earth already even now. If He doesn't then that would mean He was mistaken when He said He has all authority in heaven and in earth.

So there are only a few options as to what to do with all those passages, including the ones regarding the future temple and sacrifices. One can either consider them allegorical then apply them in some way, or one can take them as being written literally and to be fulfilled as they appear when taken written literally.

You missed one option, at least as far as Ezekiel 40-48 is concerned. I believe the prophecy was conditional upon the house of Israel of that time being "ashamed of all that they have done" (Eze 43:11) and it turned out that they were not ""ashamed of all that they have done".

Our lack of understanding, or grasping God's purpose in the resuming of animal sacrifices is no reason to then say it will not happen.

Why would His purposes for resuming animal sacrifices be such a mystery if He was going to be doing that? I'm sorry, but I find that to be a cop out answer to the question of why He would do that. But as far as Ezekiel 40-48 is concerned there is no mystery as to what the purpose of the the sin offerings mentioned there would be.

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Ezekiel 46:20Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.

Hasn't Christ already made "reconciliation for the house of Israel" with His sacrifice? Doesn't His sacrifice already "sanctify the people"?

especially when we also know that animal sacrifices never did what only Jesus could do. Can I give a definite explanation, no...but that again is no reason to reject the possibility.

The reasons to reject the possibility are because Christ's sacrifice is all anyone needs and that the animal sacrifices already served their purpose.

Many believe the resuming of the sacrifices is as a teacher and reminder.

And where does scripture teach that?

And there is another thought that because mortal men will be serving in the temple, mortal men will again be entering into the presence of God, God's presence will again be amongst mortal men...the sacrifices are not a matter of eternal cleansing and life, "born again"...they are a matter of the flesh...the ceremonial and ritual cleansing of the flesh.

What would be the point of all that? Isn't having the Holy Spirit dwelling in us good enough?

Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

At present, we do not enter the presence of God within our mortal bodies...we enter spiritually and that through Jesus. Our flesh does not enter into the Most Holy, or the temple in heaven.....

But we don't need to do that because we are the temple of God and God dwells in us. There is no need for a physical temple building in order to experience God's presence.

[John146]

That changes nothing regarding resurrection and those who have been resurrected, nor does it mean that those mortals who live out their lives in the Millennium will not, at some point, be resurrected to immortality...if, they too, have place their faith in Christ.

Where does scripture speak of people dying after the second coming of Christ and later being resurrected to immortality? When exactly would they be resurrected to immortality?

[billy-brown 2]

Resurrection is what abolishes death for the individual....and of course this is because of Jesus. But if there are mortals who survive the GT... I believe scripture says there will be And the unrighteous mortals are removed..and I believe scripture says they will be. Thus leaving only righteous mortals who survive the GT to enter into the Millennial Kingdom. Of those mortals, those who are Jews, will be serving in these things of the temple, so we have mortals where the presence of God is, and a flesh issue to be dealt with. Not to mention in places such as Zechariah, Gentiles are commanded to also come and worship the King and those Gentiles will also be in mortal flesh and coming to where the presence of God the Father is.

QD,

Well, the text in bold above is the reason that I shared the following passages in an earlier post:

II Pet. 3
7But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!
13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.

Rev. 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”

Now these verses above indicate that no unrighteous person will survive the fire of God at the Second Coming of Christ; it is the day of the Lord, and after the day of the Lord happens, Peter indicates that "we are looking for a new heavens and a new earth" and so on.

And the new heavens and new earth does not have mortality or death; all who go into the new heavens and new earth will be "immortal physically" indeed.

Also, the present heavens and earth (the first heavens and earth) has death, mourning, crying, and pain--these are all mortal things. And of course, the "millennium" contains mortality and death:

Rev. 20
5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Yes?

(go to the next post . . .)

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . . )

That changes nothing regarding resurrection and those who have been resurrected, nor does it mean that those mortals who live out their lives in the Millennium will not, at some point, be resurrected to immortality...if, they too, have place their faith in Christ.

But is there not only one physical bodily resurrection from the dead according to the following text?

Luke 20
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
37“But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB.
38“Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.”

And the "millennium" has mortality and death everywhere, yes?

(go to the next post . . .)

[John146]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . . )



But is there not only one physical bodily resurrection from the dead according to the following text?

Luke 20
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
37“But that the dead are raised, even Moses showed, in the passage about the burning bush, where he calls the Lord THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB.
38“Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him.”

And the "millennium" has mortality and death everywhere, yes?

(go to the next post . . .)

Right. Jesus didn't seem to know of more than one time when the dead would be resurrected. Also, Jesus said this:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Where does scripture teach that anyone "which seeth the Son, and believeth on him" will be raised up at a different time than "the last day"? Nowhere that I can see. Yet premils believe that some believers will be resurrected at a different time than "the last day". But Jesus didn't seem to know of any other time when those who believe in Him would be resurrected besides "the last day".

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

It changes nothing of who Christ is and what He has provided for those who place their faith in Him. He is still High Priest, He is still the Mediator of a better Covenant, and He is still King of kings, Lord and Savior...the promised Redeemer.

The blood of animals never did nor could they nor will they in the future be able to provide the means of cleansing, being born again, and made a new creature......they never provided the means for eternal life in the kingdom of God....faith was accounted as righteousness back then and really still is in that we must have faith in Christ Jesus and that by and through Him we are cleansed.

Animals never ever ever did accomplished that for any man, ever...

And our mortal flesh bodies do not enter the presence of God, nor can they, and they never will, thus those who have been resurrected in Christ Jesus have no need of any more animal sacrifices in order that their flesh would be ceremonially and ritually clean. However, those of the Millennial Kingdom, still in their mortal flesh, though new creatures in Christ Jesus... will have the matter of the flesh to deal with when it comes to the presence of God in this temple. And we have both already quoted and seen the passages that God tells us His presence will indeed be in that temple

QD,

You are sharing some interesting things here:

1) He is still High Priest
2) He is still the Mediator of a better Covenant, and
3) He is still King of kings, Lord and Savior...the promised Redeemer.

And the church said:

And remember, if Jesus is High Priest, then He is King, Savior and Lord.

And this brings us back to the OP as well as whether Satan has been cast out or not.

After all, an "earthly, physical brick-and-mortal" temple is required absolutely in our future for your view--and during at time when mortality and death is still present and so on.

On the other hand, Jesus is the IMMORTAL High Priest and King, Savior, and Lord RIGHT NOW with Power--and by the resurrection from the dead:

Rom. 1
1Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures,
3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh,
4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord,
5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake,
6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
7to all who are beloved of God in Rome, called as saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

And since Jesus is King, then ALL Kings have a throne as well as a facility to house the throne that come with the title of KING--otherwise, how can they be King? And you have agreed that Jesus is King already.

And of course, "we have" a High Priest (our KING Jesus) who "has taken" . . . HIS seat. In other words, only the "seat" that the High Priest has taken already . . . is HIS. (See Heb. 8:1.)

And the seat that the High Priest has already is mission appropriate for an Immortal being. But the seat that you are suggesting "on the earth" (as "in the millennium") is not mission appropriate for an Immortal being--namely our High Priest Jesus. Why?

Because Jesus is Immortal NOW. And the "millennium" has death and mortality everywhere. But when Jesus returns (His Second coming), He will have abolished death to the place that He can toss it into the furnace of fire. And the furnace of fire is the lake of fire--which is the second death. And look who (and what) will be in the second death:

Rev. 20
9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev. 20
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Matt. 13
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Does this make sense?

(go to the next post . . .)

[billy-brown 2]

Right. Jesus didn't seem to know of more than one time when the dead would be resurrected. Also, Jesus said this:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Where does scripture teach that anyone "which seeth the Son, and believeth on him" will be raised up at a different time than "the last day"? Nowhere that I can see. Yet premils believe that some believers will be resurrected at a different time than "the last day". But Jesus didn't seem to know of any other time when those who believe in Him would be resurrected besides "the last day".

Well, "the last day" has to be at "the time of harvest" indeed, so I agree . . .

And here's Jesus again:

Matt. 13
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26“But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27“The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
28“And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
29“But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Yep . . .

[billy-brown 2]

(This is the continuation of the last post . . .)

And these sacrifices do not contradict what Christ did because they never did what Christ did, nor can any one find through animal sacrifices what they find through Christ. It is not possible for animal sacrifices to take anything away from Christ, if that were the case, the OT saints would have been saved through animal blood and not Christ, and we know that is not possible. The same Holy blood covers the OT "faith" ful as covers NT "faith" ful

Well, it is apparent that mortal High Priests offer sacrifices on behalf of the people of Israel under the Law of Moses.

And so, the verses below are key:

Heb. 7
26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Yep. After the law. This means that the Law would be no longer in effect at all:

Heb. 8
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

10“FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

11“AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

12“FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”

13When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

And so, why would sacrifices be accomplished in honor of an obsolete system . . . ?

[quiet dove]

(This is the continuation of the last post . . .)



Well, it is apparent that mortal High Priests offer sacrifices on behalf of the people of Israel under the Law of Moses.

And so, the verses below are key:

Heb. 7
26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

Yep. After the law. This means that the Law would be no longer in effect at all:

Heb. 8
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

8For finding fault with them, He says,
“BEHOLD, DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD,
WHEN I WILL EFFECT A NEW COVENANT
WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH;

9NOT LIKE THE COVENANT WHICH I MADE WITH THEIR FATHERS
ON THE DAY WHEN I TOOK THEM BY THE HAND
TO LEAD THEM OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT;
FOR THEY DID NOT CONTINUE IN MY COVENANT,
AND I DID NOT CARE FOR THEM, SAYS THE LORD.

10“FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,
AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,
AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

11“AND THEY SHALL NOT TEACH EVERYONE HIS FELLOW CITIZEN,
AND EVERYONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, ‘KNOW THE LORD,’
FOR ALL WILL KNOW ME,
FROM THE LEAST TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.

12“FOR I WILL BE MERCIFUL TO THEIR INIQUITIES,
AND I WILL REMEMBER THEIR SINS NO MORE.”

13When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

And so, why would sacrifices be accomplished in honor of an obsolete system . . . ?

Why? Ask God, He wrote it....lol

Besides, it does not say that Christ abolished the Law, says He fulfilled it...His fulfilling it did not abolish it...unless you are saying that the things listed in the Law as sin, are then no longer sin?

And the part of the Law that dealt with ritual and ceremonial cleansing do not apply to those entering the presence of God "spiritually" through Christ...we are not entering into God's presence in our mortal flesh, there fore our mortal flesh does not require being ritually or ceremonially cleansed or atoned for. Our mortal flesh is dead....gone, going to be replaced, never to enter into the presence of God.

The aspect of the Law that dealt with sacrifices and the ritual and ceremonial aspects, dealt with God's means for men to worship and come to Him, to seek Him and they were doing that in their mortal bodies with His presence in the temple. This aspect of the Law was the means God provided for men to approach Him. Our means at present is spiritually through Christ without ever entering in our mortal flesh. Christ is our means.

Christ will still be the means of eternal life during that time, as animals never were anyway. But the mortals of that time will still be also entering into the temple which is said, God's presence will be, so for whatever reason God has, He has said what He has said, it seems there will indeed be sacrifices...But you will have to ask God why. Not me.


I can only keep repeating the same thing, the animal sacrifices never provided eternal cleansing and life. No one was ever indwelt with the Spirit because animal blood cleansed them and they were "born again" a new creature... Nor is the mortal flesh "born again".

I have already addressed these verses and no point in continuing to go in circles. I have not said anything that takes Christ from the Head of all things, the Redeemer of all men, High Priest and King....the only name under heaven in which a man may be saved.

[John146]

Why? Ask God, He wrote it....lol

Besides, it does not say that Christ abolished the Law, says He fulfilled it...His fulfilling it did not abolish it.

If it's fulfilled in Him then it's fulfilled. It's no longer in effect if it's fulfilled. If it's still in effect then it can't be fulfilled. And scripture teaches that the the old covenant of the law of Moses is no longer in effect. Why? Because Jesus fulfilled it and ushered in the new covenant of grace with His shed blood. The new covenant replaced the old covenant.

unless you are saying that the things listed in the Law as sin, are then no longer sin?

Some of them aren't. Are people still required to observe the seventh day as the sabbath today, for example? No, because Christ is the Lord of the sabbath and we rest in Him every day. And the ones that would still be considered sins are sins under the new covenant as well. For example, it was not lawful to murder under the law of Moses and it is not lawful to murder under the law of Christ, either.

And the part of the Law that dealt with ritual and ceremonial cleansing do not apply to those entering the presence of God "spiritually" through Christ...we are not entering into God's presence in our mortal flesh, there fore our mortal flesh does not require being ritually or ceremonially cleansed or atoned for. Our mortal flesh is dead....gone, going to be replaced, never to enter into the presence of God.

The aspect of the Law that dealt with sacrifices and the ritual and ceremonial aspects, dealt with God's means for men to worship and come to Him, to seek Him and they were doing that in their mortal bodies with His presence in the temple. This aspect of the Law was the means God provided for men to approach Him. Our means at present is spiritually through Christ without ever entering in our mortal flesh. Christ is our means.

Why would that ever change? Why change something that is perfect? In your view God will one day regress back from the superior new covenant system to the old covenant system again. After all the progress made by way of Christ's sacrifice why go back to the system that couldn't save anyone?

Christ will still be the means of eternal life during that time, as animals never were anyway. But the mortals of that time will still be also entering into the temple which is said, God's presence will be, so for whatever reason God has, He has said what He has said, it seems there will indeed be sacrifices...But you will have to ask God why. Not me.

Why would we ask God about something that we don't believe will happen? That doesn't make any sense. Only you can tell us why you believe it will happen. It's not reasonable for you to expect us to agree with you and go to God to ask why it will happen that way when we don't even believe it will happen that way.

I can only keep repeating the same thing, the animal sacrifices never provided eternal cleansing and life. No one was ever indwelt with the Spirit because animal blood cleansed them and they were "born again" a new creature... Nor is the mortal flesh "born again".

Where does scripture teach that animal sacrifices would ever be performed for any reason except to foreshadow Christ's sacrifice?

[billy-brown 2]

Why? Ask God, He wrote it....lol

Besides, it does not say that Christ abolished the Law, says He fulfilled it...His fulfilling it did not abolish it...unless you are saying that the things listed in the Law as sin, are then no longer sin?

And the part of the Law that dealt with ritual and ceremonial cleansing do not apply to those entering the presence of God "spiritually" through Christ...we are not entering into God's presence in our mortal flesh, there fore our mortal flesh does not require being ritually or ceremonially cleansed or atoned for. Our mortal flesh is dead....gone, going to be replaced, never to enter into the presence of God.

The aspect of the Law that dealt with sacrifices and the ritual and ceremonial aspects, dealt with God's means for men to worship and come to Him, to seek Him and they were doing that in their mortal bodies with His presence in the temple. This aspect of the Law was the means God provided for men to approach Him. Our means at present is spiritually through Christ without ever entering in our mortal flesh. Christ is our means.

Christ will still be the means of eternal life during that time, as animals never were anyway. But the mortals of that time will still be also entering into the temple which is said, God's presence will be, so for whatever reason God has, He has said what He has said, it seems there will indeed be sacrifices...But you will have to ask God why. Not me.


I can only keep repeating the same thing, the animal sacrifices never provided eternal cleansing and life. No one was ever indwelt with the Spirit because animal blood cleansed them and they were "born again" a new creature... Nor is the mortal flesh "born again".

I have already addressed these verses and no point in continuing to go in circles. I have not said anything that takes Christ from the Head of all things, the Redeemer of all men, High Priest and King....the only name under heaven in which a man may be saved.

LOL!

You know that the book of Hebrews and the book of Ezekiel are not in conflict with each other, yes?

And so, if the "word of the oath" came after the Law--as taught here:

Heb. 7
26For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
28For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

then that means that "the word of the oath" has annulled the Law of Moses completely of itself:

Heb. 7
20And inasmuch as it was not without an oath
21(for they indeed became priests without an oath, but He with an oath through the One who said to Him,
“THE LORD HAS SWORN
AND WILL NOT CHANGE HIS MIND,
‘YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER’”);
22so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

Yep.

In other words, God has a NEW (i.e., a "better") COVENANT that He is administering right now--and the OLD COVENANT is therefore obsolete right now. And where is the NEW COVENANT is administered from? From heaven--where Jesus is seated FOREVER at the right hand of the Power:

Heb. 8
1Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
3For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer.
4Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
5who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, “SEE,” He says, “THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN.”
6But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second.

And when we take communion, we acknowledge this, indeed:

I Cor. 11
23For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
24and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”
25In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”
26For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

Yep.

Thus, the OLD Covenant requires mortals for the HIGH PRIEST aspect.

But the NEW Covenant can only have an Immortal man for the HIGH PRIEST aspect--and His name is Jesus (as we all know).

And both covenants (OLD and NEW) cannot be honored by YHWH at the same time; if the NEW Covenant is in force, the OLD covenant is not in force--and vice versa.

And so, this is the main reason (among many) that the Ezekiel VISION of Eze. 40-48 is simply that: a VISION--even a VISION which was to instruct the exiles of those days.

And if Ezekiel's temple VISION is not to be built, then the throne of David cannot be on the earth, but in heaven indeed . . .

[boangry]

Satan does not have access to heaven AT ALL right now-he has been cast to the earth. And it was the victory of Christ at the cross that made that happen. But before the cross, Satan had access to heaven as well as earth (see Job 1)--but no more. Why?

Well, there was a war in heaven, yes? Just look at the vision below:



And besides all this, Satan has various names; one of them is the prince of the power of the air . .

No no no, sigh*, why on earth do people think Satan flitted from earth to heaven, the only verses they use to support it are ambiguous verses at the best which are the ones in Job.
There is another verse in Isaiah but it contradicts that Satan is fluttering up and down from heaven, because it points out that it is wrong for him to enter heaven. Fallen art thou o Lucifer... for you have said in your heart "I will ascend above the clouds" He is going to enter heaven at some time in the future from the writing of Isaiah...

Even in Job God asks Satan where have you been, Satan replied Going to and fro between Heaven and earth... Wait, no!! he did not say that!!! because he does not have access to heaven!... he Said "going to and fro upon the earth

lets look at Job and apply context

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ON the Earth
Job 1:2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. On the Earth
Job 1:3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. On the Earth
Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. On the Earth
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. On the Earth
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. On the Earth I believe simply that Job presented a sacrifice to the Lord and other sons of God came from around to do the same.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. On the Earth
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job,(right here on earth presenting before the Lord) that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

How people apply that this gives Satan access to heaven is an enigma to me! even the day Satan was created He was in Eden, yes thats right, on the earth