Throne of David-or where ever it leads...(Cont:Satan Cast out of Heaveen)

[Raybob]

No no no, sigh*, why on earth do people think Satan flitted from earth to heaven, the only verses they use to support it are ambiguous verses at the best which are the ones in Job.
There is another verse in Isaiah but it contradicts that Satan is fluttering up and down from heaven, because it points out that it is wrong for him to enter heaven. Fallen art thou o Lucifer... for you have said in your heart "I will ascend above the clouds" He is going to enter heaven at some time in the future from the writing of Isaiah...

Even in Job God asks Satan where have you been, Satan replied Going to and fro between Heaven and earth... Wait, no!! he did not say that!!! because he does not have access to heaven!... he Said "going to and fro upon the earth

lets look at Job and apply context

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ON the Earth
Job 1:2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. On the Earth
Job 1:3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. On the Earth
Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. On the Earth
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. On the Earth
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. On the Earth I believe simply that Job presented a sacrifice to the Lord and other sons of God came from around to do the same.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. On the Earth
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job,(right here on earth presenting before the Lord) that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

How people apply that this gives Satan access to heaven is an enigma to me! even the day Satan was created He was in Eden, yes thats right, on the earth

Satan used to have free access to heaven but he was kicked out of heaven when he was bound by our Lord Jesus Christ.

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(Luk 10:18)

[billy-brown 2]

No no no, sigh*, why on earth do people think Satan flitted from earth to heaven, the only verses they use to support it are ambiguous verses at the best which are the ones in Job.
There is another verse in Isaiah but it contradicts that Satan is fluttering up and down from heaven, because it points out that it is wrong for him to enter heaven. Fallen art thou o Lucifer... for you have said in your heart "I will ascend above the clouds" He is going to enter heaven at some time in the future from the writing of Isaiah...

Even in Job God asks Satan where have you been, Satan replied Going to and fro between Heaven and earth... Wait, no!! he did not say that!!! because he does not have access to heaven!... he Said "going to and fro upon the earth

lets look at Job and apply context

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil. ON the Earth
Job 1:2 And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. On the Earth
Job 1:3 His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east. On the Earth
Job 1:4 And his sons went and feasted in their houses, every one his day; and sent and called for their three sisters to eat and to drink with them. On the Earth
Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. On the Earth
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. On the Earth I believe simply that Job presented a sacrifice to the Lord and other sons of God came from around to do the same.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. On the Earth
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job,(right here on earth presenting before the Lord) that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

How people apply that this gives Satan access to heaven is an enigma to me! even the day Satan was created He was in Eden, yes thats right, on the earth

But boangry,

The "sons of God" in the verse in bold above are angels--at least, the following translations seem to imply that:

Job. 1:6

New International Version (©1984) One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. New Living Translation (©2007) One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the LORD, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them. English Standard Version (©2001) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. New American Standard Bible (©1995) Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Are you aware of this?

[boangry]

Satan used to have free access to heaven but he was kicked out of heaven when he was bound by our Lord Jesus Christ.

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
(Luk 10:18)

As I said the verses people use to show Satan has/had free access to heaven are ambiguous at best, Duly noted that you use this verse as confirmation of Satan having free access, however Ill stick to the facts!

But boangry,

The "sons of God" in the verse in bold above are angels--at least, the following translations seem to imply that:



Are you aware of this?

Yes, and I am almost sure that you will be aware that "bene Elohim" means "sons of God", and that two of those translations the translators took their doctrine into the translation this is very sad and dishonest and misleading that translators try to teach people their misconstrued doctrine, Even if I thought Sons of God was "angels" I would still find it abhorrent to mislead people.

Actually I will give you the benefit of the doubt were not aware of this, Im sure you would not try to mislead me, but now you know

[billy-brown 2]

As I said the verses people use to show Satan has/had free access to heaven are ambiguous at best, Duly noted that you use this verse as confirmation of Satan having free access, however Ill stick to the facts!



Yes, and I am almost sure that you will be aware that "bene Elohim" means "sons of God", and that two of those translations the translators took their doctrine into the translation this is very sad and dishonest and misleading that translators try to teach people their misconstrued doctrine, Even if I thought Sons of God was "angels" I would still find it abhorrent to mislead people.

Actually I will give you the benefit of the doubt were not aware of this, Im sure you would not try to mislead me, but now you know

boangry,

I think that the LXX (Septuagint) is the Greek Old Testament; the English rendering of Job 1:6 is below:

Job 1:6 (the LXX English translation from the Greek--[with some context])
6 And it came to pass on a day, that behold, the angels of God came to stand before the Lord, and the devil came with them.
7 And the Lord said to the devil, Whence art thou come? And the devil answered the Lord, and said, I am come from compassing the earth, and walking up and down in the world.
8 And the Lord said to him, Hast thou diligently considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a man blameless, true, godly, abstaining from everything evil?

And the LXX is a very good Bible; the Apostle Paul (and others) used it a lot . . .

(I guess we are all at the mercy of the Bible translators and so on . . .)

[boangry]

boangry,

I think that the LXX (Septuagint) is the Greek Old Testament; the English rendering of Job 1:6 is below:

And the LXX is a very good Bible; the Apostle Paul (and others) used it a lot . . .

(I guess we are all at the mercy of the Bible translators and so on . . .)

I disagree, we are not at the mercy of the translators, I admit when the NIV translators translate into English I hold them to a far higher standard than that I would for normal people, Because they have taken on a job of high responsibility to translate the Word of God as accurately and honestly as possible, Therefore I find it almost unbelievable when they translate bene Elohim as angels. Even if they are 100 percent sure they understand the scripture, they have a responsibility to just accurately translate the words and let the readers decide what the passage means, not force their own opinions upon the reader, So even if they were right and Jobs references was angels, God for whatever reason said “sons of God” Who do they think they are to change it.


That being said the Niv is still a good translation as well as the Septuagint. But the translators should never have allowed themselves to take the liberty with God’s Word as they did. The Niv translators also cannot blame the Septuagint for the mistake they made, there was of course other texts to compare it to; hence other versions have a more honest translation.
Anyway look at the damage of interpreting ones own doctrine into Gods text, you yourself seem convinced these translators are right in doing so because of your own doctrine, Should you not even though you disagree with my point of view agree that Gods word must be preserved as close as it can to its original text?





Even Brenton was honest towards the nature of the Septuagint translation and recognised errors, he said

“In estimating the general character of the version, it must be remembered that the translators were Jews, full of traditional thoughts of their own as to the meaning of Scripture; and thus nothing short of a miracle could have prevented them from infusing into their version the thoughts which were current in their own minds. They could only translate passages as they themselves understood them. This is evidently the case when their work is examined.

It would be, however, too much to say that they translated with dishonest intention; for it cannot be doubted that they wished to express their Scriptures truly in Greek, and that their deviations from accuracy may be simply attributed to the incompetency of some of the interpreters, and the tone of mental and spiritual feeling which was common to them.”

[billy-brown 2]

I disagree, we are not at the mercy of the translators, I admit when the NIV translators translate into English I hold them to a far higher standard than that I would for normal people, Because they have taken on a job of high responsibility to translate the Word of God as accurately and honestly as possible, Therefore I find it almost unbelievable when they translate bene Elohim as angels. Even if they are 100 percent sure they understand the scripture, they have a responsibility to just accurately translate the words and let the readers decide what the passage means, not force their own opinions upon the reader, So even if they were right and Jobs references was angels, God for whatever reason said “sons of God” Who do they think they are to change it.


That being said the Niv is still a good translation as well as the Septuagint. But the translators should never have allowed themselves to take the liberty with God’s Word as they did. The Niv translators also cannot blame the Septuagint for the mistake they made, there was of course other texts to compare it to; hence other versions have a more honest translation.
Anyway look at the damage of interpreting ones own doctrine into Gods text, you yourself seem convinced these translators are right in doing so because of your own doctrine, Should you not even though you disagree with my point of view agree that Gods word must be preserved as close as it can to its original text?





Even Brenton was honest towards the nature of the Septuagint translation and recognised errors, he said

Well, I suppose that even the greatest translations have errors in them; I don't know why the errors are there--I always wondered about that. Nevertheless, I agree that the Bible must be preserved as close as it can to the original text and so on.

But what I try to do is read a lot of different translations and come to some conclusions about a scripture passage from that . . .

(Incidentally, I didn't go to seminary . . .)

[billy-brown 2]

Where does scripture speak of people dying after the second coming of Christ and later being resurrected to immortality? When exactly would they be resurrected to immortality?

This is a very good question . . . and of course, bodily immortality for the saints is "salvation"--and as discussed in this verses below. And notice in the verses below that Christ returns the second time only to accomplish "salvation":

Heb. 9
27And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

[boangry]

Where does scripture speak of people dying after the second coming of Christ and later being resurrected to immortality? When exactly would they be resurrected to immortality?

I cannot speak for all premill viewpoints nor would I want to, they are a varied and individual lot! But your question shows your misunderstanding of my viewpoint anyway. For example why would believers need resurrected to immortality if they dont die? Does scripture show those in the camp of the saints dying or something? I believe believers live throughout and a handful live the entire 1000yr period, those that were there at the start anyway. If Adam and Eve were not put out of the garden they and their descendants could have lived forever?

Those that die are considered accursed. Those that gather around the borders of the kingdom at the end of the 1000yrs under their new found, just released leader, will be the ones resurrected with all the other non believers, this is not the resurrection I will partake in I will partake in the first resurrection.

I hope this helps at least explain how I think, ive got a feeling it wont though lol

[billy-brown 2]

I cannot speak for all premill viewpoints nor would I want to, they are a varied and individual lot! But your question shows your misunderstanding of my viewpoint anyway. For example why would believers need resurrected to immortality if they dont die? Does scripture show those in the camp of the saints dying or something? I believe believers live throughout and a handful live the entire 1000yr period, those that were there at the start anyway. If Adam and Eve were not put out of the garden they and their descendants could have lived forever?

Those that die are considered accursed. Those that gather around the borders of the kingdom at the end of the 1000yrs under their new found, just released leader, will be the ones resurrected with all the other non believers, this is not the resurrection I will partake in I will partake in the first resurrection.

I hope this helps at least explain how I think, ive got a feeling it wont though lol

However, Paul taught that when the Lord comes, all will be caught up together to meet Him--even the dead as well as the living in Christ. Also, Paul taught that we should not grieve for the dead saints in I Thess 4:13-18; indeed, we will not preceed them to meet the Lord in the air; we will be caught up together to meet Christ in the air--and be with the Lord forever.

We really need to take another look at this scripture passage below:

I Thess. 4
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.
15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
18Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Now, these are comfort scriptures from Paul. And apparently, Paul was correcting the notion that the dead in Christ would not be resurrected to immortality because they were not going to be alive physically at the coming of the Lord.

Thus, all Paul is doing with this passage above is encouraging the Thessalonian saints that those who have died in Christ will indeed be

1) resurrected to bodily immortality at the coming of the Lord, and
2) caught up together with saints who had not died physically at the coming of the Lord; these saints will have been made immortal physically as well.

That's all he is doing . . . .

Thus, all saints are represented in this passage of I Thess 4:13-18; indeed, all saints will be made immortal physically together--and meet the Lord in the air at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Don't forget that Paul anticipated the coming of the Lord in his lifetime . . .

And when the saints are made immortal physically; death will have been abolished at that point; it can then be tossed in the furnace of fire (lake of fire)--which is the second death:

Rev. 20
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

And so, since death will have been placed in the second death, the "new heavens and new earth" can be in full display:

Rev. 21
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,
4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”

[John146]

I cannot speak for all premill viewpoints nor would I want to, they are a varied and individual lot! But your question shows your misunderstanding of my viewpoint anyway. For example why would believers need resurrected to immortality if they dont die?

They wouldn't, but don't you believe that some become saved after Christ's second coming and die during that time?

Does scripture show those in the camp of the saints dying or something?

No. The bodies of those who are alive and remain until Christ's coming will be changed from mortal to immortal.

I believe believers live throughout and a handful live the entire 1000yr period, those that were there at the start anyway. If Adam and Eve were not put out of the garden they and their descendants could have lived forever?

So, you're saying you don't believe that any believers would die during the supposed future thousand years? If so, that is a unique viewpoint and I'm sure you can understand how it wouldn't have occurred to me that you believed that since that is not at all the typical premil belief.

Those that die are considered accursed. Those that gather around the borders of the kingdom at the end of the 1000yrs under their new found, just released leader, will be the ones resurrected with all the other non believers, this is not the resurrection I will partake in I will partake in the first resurrection.

I hope this helps at least explain how I think, ive got a feeling it wont though lol

No, I actually do understand your belief. Do you know of anyone else who shares that belief? I disagree with it, of course, but I do understand what you said.

[boangry]

Um... I think some wires are crossed already, I was talking only in regards to the messianic kingdom, when I said camp of the saints...

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Yes I believe people will be saved after Christs coming in the millennium lots will be born? I thought it was a pretty typical viewpoint that believers dont die during this age, maybe not on this forum though!

You's are going to try and drag me into a rapture education thread now aye!!

[John146]

Um... I think some wires are crossed already, I was talking only in regards to the messianic kingdom, when I said camp of the saints...

So was I. I'm not premil, though. I'm amil. I thought you knew that. I believe the camp of the saints represents those who will be alive and remain until the coming of Christ.

Yes I believe people will be saved after Christs coming in the millennium lots will be born? I thought it was a pretty typical viewpoint that believers dont die during this age, maybe not on this forum though!

I don't believe that is a typical viewpoint anywhere.

[divaD]

So was I. I'm not premil, though. I'm amil. I thought you knew that. I believe the camp of the saints represents those who will be alive and remain until the coming of Christ.

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You do know that there is the camp of the saints, and the beloved city in the context, right? No way these could be the same. If the camp of the saints is believers worldwide, then what is the beloved city in that context? It's only logical that this passage is meaning after the new Jerusalem is on the earth, since that would have to be the beloved city, with the camp of the saints being those that live within.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


This part...the holy city, new Jerusalem..prepared as a bride adorned for her husband....isn't that a simile? Isn't the new Jerusalem being compared to prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. If this is a simile, in which I tend to believe it is, then how can the new Jerusalem and the bride be one and the same? If you disagree that it's a simile, then why wouldn't it be?

[billy-brown 2]

Um... I think some wires are crossed already, I was talking only in regards to the messianic kingdom, when I said camp of the saints...

Yes I believe people will be saved after Christs coming in the millennium lots will be born? I thought it was a pretty typical viewpoint that believers dont die during this age, maybe not on this forum though!

You's are going to try and drag me into a rapture education thread now aye!!

boangry,

When Christ comes, He will abolish death for all saints. All of them. Indeed, there cannot be anyone "saved" after Christ comes back; because that occurs once only. And there are no martyrs which die after the Lord comes back the second time . . .

In other words, all saints will be immortal bodily when Christ comes the second time only--just like Jesus Christ is right now.

And there will not be any marriage after that--nor death:

Luke 20
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Yes?

[boangry]

boangry,

When Christ comes, He will abolish death for all saints. All of them.

Yes He will abolish death for all saints

Indeed, there cannot be anyone "saved" after Christ comes back;

Unless there is a messianic kingdom

because that occurs once only.

yes it occurs once, I havnt got time to explain but I will in the future, obviously my viewpoint is pretrib rapture otherwise who is going to populate the kingdom.

And there are no martyrs which die after the Lord comes back the second time . . .

Yep, no one is saying there will be martyrs in the kingdom.

In other words, all saints will be immortal bodily when Christ comes the second time only--just like Jesus Christ is right now.

And there will not be any marriage after that--nor death:



Yes?

Yes, I will not be married nor given in marriage in the next age like all the other resurrected saints at the Lords second coming, but those that are not resurrected and have entered the messianic kingdom can! both Jew and Gentiles; in fact I think they will be prolific breeder's

Luke 20:35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.