What, me worry?
How could that be when all saints will no longer have corrupt physical bodies?Originally Posted by boangry
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(1Co 15:51-53)
Senior Member
As per previous post, not all saints/believers will be resurrected/changed, they will be the ones who enter the into the 1000yr period.
What, me worry?
Wonder why the bible doesn't tell us that?
Senior Member
?? That there will be a rapture? then seven years? then the people still alive will enter the millennium?Wonder why the bible doesn't tell us that?
not sure why it doesn't tell you that? have you considered
Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
I think this explicitly states those left of the nations that go up against Jerusalem under the Antichrist, shall go up from year to year to worship the King, It shows these ones are believers for two reasons, first reason they did not come up against Jerusalem, second they go up to worship in the Millennium. However that will not always be the case as the nations population grow in number.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
While it does talk about the new Jerusalem "coming down from God out of heaven" there is also a sense in which we are already part of the new Jerusalem. Look at these passages:
Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Can you see how these indicate that we are already spiritually part of the heavenly Jerusalem even though we are not literally in heaven yet? So, that's how I understand Rev 20:9 when it refers to "the holy city". I don't believe that the new Jerusalem will have already come down from God out of heaven to then new earth at that point because I believe when the new Jerusalem comes down from God out of heaven "there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain". So, if it had already come down from God out of heaven to the new earth as of what is described in Rev 20:9 then that wouldn't make sense since a lot of people will die at that time. It's interesting to me that you see Rev 19-20 as being chronological but not Rev 20-21. That's where we differ.
Later, as I've shown you several times before, John refers to the new Jerusalem as being "the bride, the lamb's wife". So, why you continue to deny that the new Jerusalem is the bride is beyond me.Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
This part...the holy city, new Jerusalem..prepared as a bride adorned for her husband....isn't that a simile? Isn't the new Jerusalem being compared to prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. If this is a simile, in which I tend to believe it is, then how can the new Jerusalem and the bride be one and the same? If you disagree that it's a simile, then why wouldn't it be?
Rev 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
The angel told John he would show him "the bride, the Lamb's wife" and then proceeded to show him "that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God". It shouldn't be hard to see that the angel was equating "the bride, the Lamb's wife" with "that great city, the holy Jerusalem".
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
It seems to me that your statement is in direct contradiction to Paul's statement here:
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Paul taught that all saints/believers will be changed "at the last trump".
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
I think he was asking why the Bible doesn't tell us that not all believers will be changed if that was the case? That passage you quoted says no such thing. How could any believers live forever without being changed from mortal to immortal? Do you think the ones described in that passage will never be changed from mortal to immortal?
Senior Member
Thats why I pointed out my pretrib belief, I know the viewpoint has been well gone over enough without me having to point out that this view point applies
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
before the seventieth week of Daniel, so I didnt see the point at the moment to go over it.
I think the ones in that populate the earth in the millennium are the survivors of the tribulation, They will not receive their glorified bodies until the end of the millennium, they will age, as opposed to myself who will not age in my glorified body, but an old man of 1000yrs will not be considered too old to do anything, someone who is 100yrs is considered a lad. A wolf will again be a vegetarian and lie down with the lamb, a child will again play with an adder etc... things will be dramatically different to now.
this is totally different to be resurrected. If Im raptured right now I would not class that as being resurrected from the dead.How could any believers live forever without being changed from mortal to immortal
Answer me this, If Cain found his way past the flaming sword and entered Eden, would he be immortal or mortal?
I live here!
What exactly happens to your body at the time? Do you enter heaven in your flesh body? Does your flesh body stay behind on the the earth? Do you enter heaven as a mortal?
When folks die, their bodies usually stay behind and eventually become dust, while their spirit and or soul goes to live somewhere else. So what exactly happens to the physical body of a pre-trib raptured saint?
I was pretrib for many years, yet none of these questions ever came to mind. I had never thought about it one way or the other. Do these thoughts ever cross your mind, as in how you enter heaven at the time, and what happens to your flesh bodies in the meantime? If you don't class this as a resurrection from the dead, I'm then taking that to mean that you think the resurrection from the dead happens later. Is that what you're meaning?
What, me worry?
You say that 'some' Christians won't be changed but will enter a future time period, then be changed at a later time. The bible says we "all" will be changed. It does NOT say some will be changed, then the rest will live in their mortal body to be over 1000 years old, then they will be changed.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(1Co 15:51)
I live here!
In the Rev 20 passage, why not just state the camp of the saints. Why does it say...and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city? It says the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city...not the camp of the saints about, the beloved city. It's not saying the camp of the saints are the beloved city, but that the saints camp is in the beloved city. This heavenly Jerusalem in Heb 12, how could it be compassed about? The ones that would be coming against it wouldn't even be aware of it's spiritual presence. But they would be aware of an actual city they could see with their own eyes.
Because it's not a logical conclusion. The bride is not new Jerusalem. I have also shown in the past how illogical this is. So it's also beyond me why you continue to conclude otherwise. The new Jerusalem will be a literal city where the bride of Christ will live. It makes no sense whatsoever to give dimensions of something that doesn't even exist. This would be one of many reasons that I conclude the new Jerusalem will be a literal city. It fits perfect with the fact that Jesus said He went to prepare a place, and that in His Father's house are many mansions, etc. Plus I'm certain you're read Rev 21 numerous times, especially beginning at verse 11.
pre trib teaches that....
Those that are raptured will be changed....those who were not saved prior to the rapture(won't be raptured-obviously) but then those who are saved after the rapture at some point during the Tribulation, will be the ones that enter, as mortals, and go into the Millennial kingdom...which will include Jews and Gentiles because there will be both that will come to salvation during the GT.
So thus the separation of those who survive the GT(sheep/goats), the goats removed and the sheep entering the Messianic Millennial Kingdom, a kingdom in which Christ will rule over the earth upon the throne(authority) of David of which Christ is rightful Heir and came as promised...fulfilling the events found with in the prophecies, those of a suffering Messiah the First Advent....and King/Messiah in all His glory the Second Advent.
Last edited by quiet dove; Mar 13th 2012 at 09:33 PM. Reason: question came across wrong
Posting Freak
But boangry,
Here are the words of Jesus on all this:
And so, here's some of what we can glean from this passage:Luke 20
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
1) Jesus is teaching us that the resurrection from the dead is the dividing point between "this" age and "that" age.
2) Jesus is teaching us that "this" age has marriage available to it.
3) Jesus is teaching us that "that" age does not have death.
4) Jesus is teaching us that those who attain to "that" age are immortal people of faith. In other words, these are the wheat as gathered in the barn of the Lord at harvest time--which is at the end of this age. And remember, the tares are gathered at the end of this age as well and burned--there are no survivors to repopulate anything:
And there are only two kinds of people according to Jesus:Matt. 13
24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
25“But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26“But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27“The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
28“And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
29“But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
30‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”
//
36Then He left the crowds and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”
37And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man,
38and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;
39and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.
40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
1) the wheat (the righteous) and
2) the tares (the unrighteous) . . .
That's it . . .
Yes?
Grace and peace,
Billy-brown 2
I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Senior Member
Ok, how to explain? Right I believe the rapture is imminent and could happen later today, If it happens later today, I will be caught up into the air and my body will be changed, however I will not precede those who have already died for they will be Resurrected at the same time and receive their new physical Bodies.
I will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, and on my way to heaven, but I will not be resurrected because I will not have died. Those that have died will be resurrected from the dead. But we will not all die, or as Paul puts it not all sleep. And we all receive our new physical bodies
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now I believe 1 Cor 15:51 only happens once and is the event known as the rapture, after this though is seven more years which is divided up into two three and a half year periods, with more people being resurrected from the dead, for example the two witnesses which the whole world will see ascending into heaven.
Anyway the people that enter the millennium are the survivors of the great tribulation, and they will not taste death in the millennium and they will live in peace throughout the 1000yrs etc... Therefore They will not need resurrected.
Therefore the believers in the Messianic kingdom do not need resurrected from the dead. And I do not think one has to be legalistic about what a mortal and immortal body is! Why did God put Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden? Why did He guard the way back with a flaming sword? I think the Messianic kingdom, Israel which is where Davids throne will be will be close to resembling Eden although I realise not the exact same.
good questionSo what exactly happens to the physical body of a pre-trib raptured saint?there is absolutely no need for saints that are in heaven at the moment to have physical bodies, they wont need them until the wedding
So the saints dead in Christ and those alive and caught up will then need there new physical bodies as the wedding is about to take place in heaven.
No, But the resurrection of the dead(unbelievers) happens at the end of the 1000yrs there are no believers to resurrect.I'm then taking that to mean that you think the resurrection from the dead happens later. Is that what you're meaning?
Senior Member
BB2 Jesus was talking to the Sadducees, they dont believe in the resurrection and they asked Jesus a question trying to trap him in His words and trying to prove that there is no resurrection from the dead. Jesus clarified for them that there is indeed a resurrection and totally dismantled their trap by clarifying more what the resurrection entails...But boangry,
Here are the words of Jesus on all this:
And so, here's some of what we can glean from this passage:Luke 20
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
1) Jesus is teaching us that the resurrection from the dead is the dividing point between "this" age and "that" age.
2) Jesus is teaching us that "this" age has marriage available to it.
3) Jesus is teaching us that "that" age does not have death.
4) Jesus is teaching us that those who attain to "that" age are immortal people of faith. In other words, these are the wheat as gathered in the barn of the Lord at harvest time--which is at the end of this age. And remember, the tares are gathered at the end of this age as well and burned--there are no survivors to repopulate anything:
And there are only two kinds of people according to Jesus:
1) the wheat (the righteous) and
2) the tares (the unrighteous) . . .
That's it . . .
Yes?
Luke 20
34Jesus said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,
35but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.No, He said Those that are from this age and attain to that age and the resurrection cannot die anymore3) Jesus is teaching us that "that" age does not have death.
Luke 20:35 but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
36for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrectionyep, and those from this age cannot marry in the next age. Its one giant leap to assume those born in the 1000yr period cannot marry and procreate and another giant leap because that those who have put on incorruptible from this age and cannot die in the next means that those who haven't put on incorruptible in the 1000yr period cant die!2) Jesus is teaching us that "this" age has marriage available to it.
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