Even so, come, Lord Jesus
I can only assume from your responses that you would agree with me that there is no scripture that specifically mentions anyone being changed at some other time besides "at the last trump" (1 Cor 15:51-52). If you disagree then please show me a passage that specifically speaks of people being changed at some point besides "at the last trump".Originally Posted by quiet dove
God promises eternal life to all who come to Christ...thats it good enough for me regarding those during the Millennial Kingdom who are alive at the time of Revelation 20
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Why didn't Jesus call it "the kingdom of the Son" then? I think the reason He calls it "the kingdom of their Father" is because the following will have happened at that point:
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Whether you agree with me on this or not, can you at least see the point I'm making?
Because I find it difficult to believe things that I don't see taught in scripture anywhere. Imagine that.Plus, again, any domain, be it heave or earth and if it be heaven and earth, that is under submission to God, is part of God's kingdom..why do you find it so difficult to believe God can indeed have His kingdom contain both a heavenly and an earthly? Why must it be either/or?
It has nothing to do with having difficulty believing one thing or another. I believe lots of things that are difficult for some people to believe. Including that God created the heavens and the earth and that Jesus rose from the dead. You may have noticed there's a lot of people who have difficulty believing those things. So, again, it has nothing to do with having difficulty in believing God would have a heavenly kingdom and an earthly kingdom, it has to do with what I see taught (or not taught) in scripture, which is that there is just one kingdom that encompasses heaven and earth. During the time period between Christ's resurrection and His return the Father has put Christ in charge of the kingdom. At His return He will deliver the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:23-24).
I didn't say otherwise, so why did you feel the need to say that?Jesus coming to rule the earth over mortals takes nothing away from the Church, or those mortals. An earthly Israel as purposed by God throughout the OT takes nothing away from the Church or Israel, nor does it mean the latter will not live and be in the kingdom of God with eternal life through Christ.
So He calls it the kingdom of His Father, that does not change anything. Christ ruling over an earth, including Israel...from Jerusalem, would make the earth and all nations under submission to God the Father, thus they would be included in the Kingdom of God.Why didn't Jesus call it "the kingdom of the Son" then? I think the reason He calls it "the kingdom of their Father" is because the following will have happened at that point:
1 Cor 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Whether you agree with me on this or not, can you at least see the point I'm making?
Because I find it difficult to believe things that I don't see taught in scripture anywhere. Imagine that.
It has nothing to do with having difficulty believing one thing or another. I believe lots of things that are difficult for some people to believe. Including that God created the heavens and the earth and that Jesus rose from the dead. You may have noticed there's a lot of people who have difficulty believing those things. So, again, it has nothing to do with having difficulty in believing God would have a heavenly kingdom and an earthly kingdom, it has to do with what I see taught (or not taught) in scripture, which is that there is just one kingdom that encompasses heaven and earth. During the time period between Christ's resurrection and His return the Father has put Christ in charge of the kingdom. At His return He will deliver the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor 15:23-24).
I didn't say otherwise, so why did you feel the need to say that?
And just because you don't see it, does not mean I imagined it......
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
Do you have any idea why Paul would say "we shall all be changed...at the last trump" but not mention that there would be others changed at a later time as well? I can't think of any reason why he wouldn't have mentioned that if that was the case. So, I think when he said "all" he meant all believers from all-time since he doesn't mention anyone being changed at any other time except "at the last trump".
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
It means something if it means that He has delivered the kingdom to the Father at that point, as per 1 Cor 15:24. But I guess you're not seeing that connection.
If they are included in the kingdom of God then that would mean you have flesh and blood mortals inheriting the kingdom of God. But Paul said "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50).Christ ruling over an earth, including Israel...from Jerusalem, would make the earth and all nations under submission to God the Father, thus they would be included in the Kingdom of God.
When all things have been brought under submission to God He delivers the kingdom to God...it is all the kingdom of God once under submission to God...
Flesh and blood can't inherit the kingdom of God and flesh and blood doesn't... are we not still in our flesh and blood but yet citizens of the kingodm of God?
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
But you said this:
What did you mean when you indicated that "all nations...would be included in the Kingdom of God"? How could they be included in the kingdom of God without inheriting the kingdom of God?
Yes, but what is your point exactly? That has nothing specifically to do with 1 Cor 15:50, right?are we not still in our flesh and blood but yet citizens of the kingodm of God?
Senior Member
Ok, the messianic kingdom lasts only 1000yrs (about the only thing the old testament dosnt record for us is the time span of it) then (I know I differ from other pre mills here) Then after the millennial kingdom is the new heavens and earth, and the heavenly Jerusalem descends out of heaven, yes I think I am a living stone and part of this heavenly building!!
anyway everyone then has access to the living waters and to the tree of life, which is why I ask the question, Why did God remove Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden?? and guard the way to the tree of life??
The answer is that they would eat of it and live forever!!!
Senior Member
I can understand how those newly saved can leave the doctrine they were taught, one needs to learn for themselves. but if you held the viewpoint and were taught you would remember that we dont take single verses out of the bible to form a complete doctrine, this leads to error and there are numerous verses written that at first appear contradictory and only on deeper examination ie. comparing scripture with scripture do we learn what they mean. And I am confused if you once held my doctrine you already know what Im about to say!!
What I take out of this verse;
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."
Is that there is two resurrections, even though I can see how you see one! The resurrection of the righteous and the resurrection of damnation, and the day is coming when all that have died will hear his voice!
The first resurrection is completed at the beginning of the 1000yr period
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
But as the previous verse has already explained the rest of the dead are not resurrected until after the 1000yr period
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. ([This is the first resurrection] :note this is a summary of the first five verses which declares and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
No one will enter the Millennial Kingdom but the righteous....those that are born into it will be dealt with ...I would think...on an individual basis according to however God chooses.
My point is...we as believers have inherited, are citizens, of the kingdom of God, while we still are stuck living in the midst of the world...because with God, any promise that awaits to be realized is still as good as done. Plus, are we not already His ...just as much today as we will ever be?
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
How do you reconcile that statement with this:
Isaiah 9:6For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus
So, when you said "all nations...would be included in the Kingdom of God" what did you mean by that exactly if that does not mean you were saying all nations will inherit the kingdom of God? What does it mean to be "included in the kingdom of God", in other words?
All nations will be ruled by Christ ..."rod of iron", they will either come to worship Him, or suffer the consequences such as what passages in Zechariah speak of. Christ makes the earthly Millennium part of the kingdom of God...not the nations. But to inherit the kingdom of God, one must come to Christ. Which those Christ is speaking to in Matthew ...have come to Christ
Men can still choose to accept Christ as Savior or not...but they will submit to His rule as King during that time....or deal with the consequences. The sheep entering the Millennium will have children, those children, like the sheep, must make their own decision ...and from Revelation it is clear that some do choose to rebel.
I can't give you every detail of the Millennial Kingdom...but that does not mean there will not be one
Last edited by quiet dove; Mar 16th 2012 at 01:49 PM.
Posting Freak
QD,
But the two people groups are placed in clear relief when Jesus mentions "all" stumbling blocks and those who commit lawlessness in Matt. 13.
Yep.
ALL.
So, which wicked person does that leave out? Indeed, these will all be tossed into the furnace of fire at the end of the age. This will leave, of course, all the righteous "behind" to "shine forth" and so on.
And so, which righteous person does that leave out?
At any rate, all of these perspectives are being taught by Jesus below:
Matt. 13
40“So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
41“The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
42and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43“Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Matt. 13
47“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
48and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
49“So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
50and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Grace and peace,
Billy-brown 2
I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
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