OSAS Question

[Gadgeteer]

Disobedience and unbelief are the opposite of obedience and belief. Hebrews 3:10-11 - "Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' " Disobedience, unbelief, always go astray in their heart, have not known My ways is not descriptive of saved believers. I've been making more connections in Hebrews. Their evil hearts manifested in UNBELIEF which resulted in departing from God (Hebrews 3:12).

No, it's a warning --- "do not harden YOUR hearts, take care lest your hearts be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God". He's using historical Israel as a "bad-example", saying "don't be like them". He also contrasts the earthly "Promised Land" (their rest) with eternal life, "God's rest".

Their hearts were hardened by the deceitfulness of sin to the point that they departed and demonstrated that they have NOT become partakers of Christ (Hebrews 3:14).

Departed from where? Where were they that they "departed from", and where were they that they "fell away from"?

Holding the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, is the demonstrative evidence that we HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ.

Not what it says. We are partners IF we hold fast. We are Christ's house IF we hold fast.

For having heard, rebelled (vs. 16) "instead of believing." They drifted away from what they heard (Hebrews 2:1) and neglected the offer of salvation (Hebrews 2:3)

He says "WE shall not escape if we neglect salvation". Same as Heb12:25, WE shall not escape who turn away from God". Why does he say "we"?

by not mixing faith with what they heard (Hebrews 4:2).

There is a direct contrast with Israel --- they did not mix hearing with faith. But were they always faithless? No! So what about us, here today? If WE do not mix faith with hearing (if we STOP mixing faith!), then we can FALL (4:11) and fail to enter God's rest.

Fall from where?

See how this all fits together?

Yes --- but not the way you thought. I've asked pointed questions --- as always I look forward to your thoughts. You are intelligent, and we have always been able to disagree without harsh feelings; I respect you and I think you respect me.

Those who drift away here were not earnest to heed the things they heard. Hearing does not necessarily equate with believing. Jesus declared: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life (John 5:24). These Hebrews needed to take heed that they did not drift away from what they heard and neglect the offer of such a great salvation.

Do you still perceive this as "they-were-never-saved"?

The author of Hebrews is writing to a very large group of Hebrews (Jews) and does not infallibly know the heart of each person,

In saying "WE", the writer (Paul!) includes himself.

but he does know that in the end, the ones who will be identified as those who have become partakers of Christ, those who did take heed to what they heard, those who did mix faith with that they heard, will have been those who hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end." These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. But later? They demonstrate their unbelief by their actions.

Can you please explain how you perceive 3:6 & 3:14 as "they SHOWED their salvation BY holding fast (and the others demonstrated their NEVER-salvation by not holding fast)", rather than "We are Christ's house IF we hold fast", "we are partners in Christ IF we hold fast"?

Thanx again for your thoughts, if you're inclined to respond --- both to this post and to the previous one.

:-)

[Bandit]

I think what James is doing is defining what a true, saving faith really is. So I do not believe James is saying that "good works" will follow true faith, but rather, I think James is defining what true faith really is. Properly understood, "faith" and "good works" are the opposite sides of the same coin. One cannot possess the coin apart from possessing both sides of the coin.

I like how you said that. I haven't pondered the difference between "true faith inexorably leading to good works", and "opposite sides of the same coin". Why do you think the difference is important?

Hello Gadgeteer,

This might take a little while to explain. I think both views are worthy, but at least in my mind the view that a "sincere faith" (see Paul in 1 Tim. 1:5) - which is also the same implied "living faith" in James - and how one lives - the "good works" - are opposite sides of the same coin is the better and more biblical model. (And I might get a lot of flack on this.)

First of all, I think we would have to ask just what does it mean for someone to have faith in God? Would it not be correct to say that we believe what God says? Well, if that is what faith is (believing what God has said), then the next question should be, what has God said? (What does God want us to believe?)

So let me reiterate, to have faith in God is to believe what God has said. But that brings us back to what God has said. So what is it that God has said? I think there are a small number of core things God wants us to believe. First and foremost, that He is. (But as James says, even the demons believe that there is a God; so that fact alone is not enough to save.) Another core fact, the 2nd in my mind, is that judgement is coming. This truth is foundational to the bible - and the gospel message in particular. (There is no need to be saved if you are in no danger.) Both Jesus and John the Baptist gave many similar warnings, like "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" (Please read Matthew 3 for a fuller description.)

So God wants us to believe that He is, and that judgement is coming, but what else is there? To me the next core fact that God wants us to believe is that there is a way to escape the coming judgement. (Okay, hope I haven't lost anyone yet.) And how will this salvation (way of escape) come? As John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!"

Now I could spend a lot of time, but don't have a lot of time, but let's assume that everyone here knows enough about what the bible says about Jesus to know that He is both KING and LORD, and He is the way of salvation. As Paul said in various places in the Book of Acts, "in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him... Jesus Christ - He is Lord of all!" (Acts 10:35-36), and "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved!" (Acts 16:31), and "these (Paul and Silas) are all acting contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another King - Jesus" (Acts 17:7), and "concerning the faith in Christ... he (Paul) reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgement to come" Acts 24:24-25).

So not only are we to believe that God is, and that judgement is coming, but we are to believe that Jesus is both the Lamb of God and the Eternal King who alone provides salvation. So if we claim to have faith in Christ, then what are we saying? Are we not saying that we believe Jesus is both God and Savior and King and Judge and Master? So if we say we believe in Jesus, then are we not saying that we believe He is all these things? And if so, then aren't there also certain implications which should be recognized up front. The King makes the rules, does He not? So if we believe Jesus to be King and Master, then are we not also accepting Him to be our King and Master (and simultaneously acknowledging our postion as servant)? So then, even if we have never before lived according to His royal statutes (and may not even know what all of them are), are not we saying we believe Him to be our King and that His statutes are the ones we shall live by and be judged by? In other words, when we come to "believe" in Jesus, we also accept that there is a set of rules to live by - His rules - and we are actively choosing to learn what they are and to live by them.

Okay, so now back to my view that a true living faith and good works are opposite sides of the same, two-sided coin. Think of one side as the "faith" side. This is a side you will never see. You can look at this side of the coin all day long and never see it (for who can look into the heart of another) - but God can see it (for He can look into the heart of another). Now think of the other side as being the "good works" side. This is the side you can see (you can see how someone lives). If one truly has "faith" in God, then the presence of the visible side proves the presence of the invisible side. That is why James says I will show you my faith (invisible to all but God) by my works (visible for all to see).

To me, the reason all this is so hard to "see" (pardon the pun) is because of the cheap grace gospel which is so common today. Most people want a salvation which demands nothing, and a great many churches are more than willing to give them what their itching ears want to hear.

Bandit

P.S. Hope I didn't ramble too much.

[Gadgeteer]

Hello Gadgeteer,

This might take a little while to explain. I think both views are worthy, but at least in my mind the view that a "sincere faith" (see Paul in 1 Tim. 1:5)

We have to quote that verse, it's too good to overlook:

"The goal of our commandment is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith."

...which is also the same implied "living faith" in James - and how one lives - the "good works" - are opposite sides of the same coin is the better and more biblical model. (And I might get a lot of flack on this.)

I think you won't.

First of all, I think we would have to ask just what does it mean for someone to have faith in God? Would it not be correct to say that we believe what God says?

Technically correct, but inadequate. The "faith that saves" is a union between Creator and creature. What I want to teach most is the intimate fellowship of love that is the substance of our salvation. Jesus called it a "marriage" --- are we in love with Him? Do we spend time with Him, and fellowship? Do we enter within the veil that He tore for us? Imagine a marriage between Humans that tries to exist without investment of time and fellowship --- it will fail.

Well, if that is what faith is (believing what God has said), then the next question should be, what has God said? (What does God want us to believe?)

So let me reiterate, to have faith in God is to believe what God has said. But that brings us back to what God has said. So what is it that God has said? I think there are a small number of core things God wants us to believe. First and foremost, that He is. (But as James says, even the demons believe that there is a God; so that fact alone is not enough to save.)

What do demons not have, that saved people do? Communion with Him. Intimate fellowship.

Another core fact, the 2nd in my mind, is that judgment is coming. This truth is foundational to the bible - and the gospel message in particular. (There is no need to be saved if you are in no danger.) Both Jesus and John the Baptist gave many similar warnings, like "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" (Please read Matthew 3 for a fuller description.)

So God wants us to believe that He is, and that judgment is coming, but what else is there? To me the next core fact that God wants us to believe is that there is a way to escape the coming judgment. (Okay, hope I haven't lost anyone yet.) And how will this salvation (way of escape) come? As John the Baptist said, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world!"

I think it's a "focus thing"; in James4:7-10 the focus is NOT on "resisting the devil", but on drawing near to God --- that His "overcoming-the-world" (Jn16:33) becomes ours. We do not overcome; He has already overcome through us, if we abide in Him and He in us.

Now I could spend a lot of time, but don't have a lot of time, but let's assume that everyone here knows enough about what the bible says about Jesus to know that He is both KING and LORD, and He is the way of salvation. As Paul said in various places in the Book of Acts, "in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him... Jesus Christ - He is Lord of all!" (Acts 10:35-36), and "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved!" (Acts 16:31), and "these (Paul and Silas) are all acting contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying there is another King - Jesus" (Acts 17:7), and "concerning the faith in Christ... he (Paul) reasoned about righteousness, self-control, and the judgment to come" Acts 24:24-25).

So not only are we to believe that God is, and that judgment is coming, but we are to believe that Jesus is both the Lamb of God and the Eternal King who alone provides salvation. So if we claim to have faith in Christ, then what are we saying? Are we not saying that we believe Jesus is both God and Savior and King and Judge and Master? So if we say we believe in Jesus, then are we not saying that we believe He is all these things?

Yes --- and it's more than that. What the demons did in James2:19 is to believe in one God; but they don't KNOW Him. Look at those in Matt7:21-23, who THINK they're saved. They cast out demons, prophesied, and did mighty works. They did visitations, gave to the needy, why some of them even sang in the CHOIR! But Jesus "never knew them". They'll be standing there at the Judgment with their mouths open, shock and dismay on their faces, cold terror gripping their hearts, until the angels come to take them away.

Salvation is not believing in Jesus; it's KNOWING Him, and Him knowing us.

And if so, then aren't there also certain implications which should be recognized up front. The King makes the rules, does He not? So if we believe Jesus to be King and Master, then are we not also accepting Him to be our King and Master (and simultaneously acknowledging our postion as servant)? So then, even if we have never before lived according to His royal statutes (and may not even know what all of them are), are not we saying we believe Him to be our King and that His statutes are the ones we shall live by and be judged by? In other words, when we come to "believe" in Jesus, we also accept that there is a set of rules to live by - His rules - and we are actively choosing to learn what they are and to live by them.

I think "compartmentalization" fits here. How did Nazi monsters take off their "monster-cloaks" and hang them up, then put on their "family-cloaks" and go home to their wives and children, full of tenderness and gentleness? Then the next day they'd return to work and hang up their family-cloaks and put the monster-cloaks back on. Do we obey God's rules to please Him? Or is our obedience indissolubly bonded to our faith and love in Him? Do we put God in a box up on our closet shelves except when we need Him? It is as you say --- two sides of the same coin.

I've heard people like Joyce Meyer teach on Luke10:17-19; terrible tragedy --- because she MISSED verse 20, and it's the key. We don't rejoice that we have power over evil, we rejoice that we belong to HIM, and power over evil is but the consequence of Him-in-us.

Okay, so now back to my view that a true living faith and good works are opposite sides of the same, two-sided coin. Think of one side as the "faith" side. This is a side you will never see. You can look at this side of the coin all day long and never see it (for who can look into the heart of another) - but God can see it (for He can look into the heart of another). Now think of the other side as being the "good works" side. This is the side you can see (you can see how someone lives). If one truly has "faith" in God, then the presence of the visible side proves the presence of the invisible side. That is why James says I will show you my faith (invisible to all but God) by my works (visible for all to see).

I think you have a way with words. And James teaches "intimacy" --- by his good works he will show you the fellowship-of-love inside.

To me, the reason all this is so hard to "see" (pardon the pun) is because of the cheap grace gospel which is so common today. Most people want a salvation which demands nothing, and a great many churches are more than willing to give them what their itching ears want to hear.

Amen! But the heart of "itching-ears", is personal thrones. Back to James4, "HUMBLE yourselves in the Lord and He will exalt you." (1Pet5:6, Matt18:4.)

We are exalted NOT on our own glory, but on His (Jn5:44!). And that's it --- do we love ourselves, or do we surrender ourselves in full love of Him? To whom do we belong --- Jesus, or ourselves and darkness? We are "not our own, but bought with a price" (1Cor6:19-20); who paid our price? Jesus? Or worldly things?

Bandit

P.S. Hope I didn't ramble too much.

No --- ya' done good.

:-)

[Gadgeteer]

Hi slug,
I have not read this thread and that probably seems rude, but I have read so many threads in the last few years with this same title that I didn't understand and I don't want to hear arguments right now. But I have a question and I don't want to hear an argument on it either. I only want to hear your answer. Sorry if it sounds rude that I only want to hear what you have to say on it and that I won't be reading anyone else's answers. Sorry guys. So I've done my apologizing for breaking in on a thread to ask a question only of Slug.

Hi, "Awestruck". Okay, no answers from me; but a couple of questions for you...

I've had a colossal failure in obedience lately. I'm pretty torn up over it (as I should be) but I still know I am in Him and He is in me, and I still have the Holy Spirit. My failure has not had any affect on his love for me and it has not caused Him to remove His Spirit from me.

Are "shame and guilt" His plan for you? How much of ourselves do we "clean up" before coming to Him?

I have a hard time with extremes in preaching. I have a hard time with extremes in just about anything. So I struggle with this a lot because I read threads where the whole Gospel is not preached and only one extreme is preached.

This happened to me - AGAIN - in a thread recently. It is distressing because no matter the argument, opposing...teams face off, each one presenting and defending one extreme, with neither ever being able to see and present the beautiful cohesiveness that the Gospel and the bible are, the extremes woven together to make the beauty and peace that they just naturally do.

There is a time when OSAS matters --- and a time when it does not. Brothers (or brothers & sisters) who agree on what salvation is, can disagree on this but fellowship in love and expect to rejoice together in eternity with Jesus.

You are one of the few men I have run across who is able to do this sometimes with a topic, and this is how I know God teaches you. So my question is: if you have the time and you feel inclined, could you maybe present for me and help with my confusion on this matter, a weaving together of Him never leaving me and the amazing assurance I have of this, with the other extreme, so I can maybe find some cohesiveness on this?

I know it is a lot to ask and it isn't that I am trying to get you to do all of my work for me, but I just know from past experience, that reading through this thread will NOT clear up my confusion, but will only make it worse.

I need to understand this, how it is possible for me to do something that would cause Him to abandon me, while still walking in complete trust in His promises of never leaving me. I need to hear the extremes woven together in some semblance that brings peace and trust. I need to be done with this fracture in me that sometimes feels like an adopted child who better watch her step or the family might toss her out.

He will NEVER abandon you, for He has said "I will NEVER leave you nor forsake you" (Heb13:5). The issue is whether we can leave Him.

No one who struggles has completely left God, "Awestruckchild". Unbelievers tend not to struggle.

If you have the time, thank you. If you don't, I understand. Thanks slug.

Slug has excellent things to say, clearly he is one of those who love God and belong to Him. I thought I might have something to add; you can consider my post, or not, fully up to you.

Big question --- what is salvation to you? What is it that distinguishes a "saved person", from one who is not saved?

[awestruckchild]

Hi Gadgeteer,
I did not do any cleaning up before I went to Him.When I realized He was actually...real, my only thought wasn't to go clean up but to just tell Him how sorry I was, and that I didn't KNOW. That's really about the only thing that I was doing - just asking Him to please forgive me.

I think what distinguishes someone saved from someone not saved is that God is in them. They've met Him and have His Spirit actually in them.

But what I need is to....I think I have given the wrong impression here.
Honestly, I was having some real struggles that I was having trouble finding any help for, but I did finally get some help, and while it isn't over by a long shot, I'm okay.

I still don't see how it is possible that a man could have His Spirit one day and then not have His Spirit the next, and lose his salvation, but I don't think I'm going to find an answer no matter who tries to explain it to me. I don't see how it is possible that anyone who has met Him would decide they don't want to know Him anymore, and even if they did, I don't think He would let it happen. I think once you've been sealed with His Spirit, He is never going to abandon you. Even when we aren't faithful, He is. If no one can snatch you from His hand, but I could goof it up and lose Him, then that's no good, because I AM the worst danger to myself. What good would it be to know that no one else could snatch me from His hand, while knowing that I myself - my biggest danger - could do it? Something's not right here. He can save me from every enemy, but my worst one, He CAN'T save me from? He can assure me that I am safe in my eternal life from every human, demon, and satan himself, but there is one human who does have the power to snatch me from His hand and undo His sealing with the Spirit, and it's me. Something's not right there. I had hoped slug might be able to put it all together in a way that made sense to me. There are two extremes here, like with every neverending debate. There has to be a way to weave it all together in a harmony that makes God stronger than me.

[Gadgeteer]

Hi Gadgeteer,
I did not do any cleaning up before I went to Him. When I realized He was actually...real, my only thought wasn't to go clean up but to just tell Him how sorry I was, and that I didn't KNOW. That's really about the only thing that I was doing - just asking Him to please forgive me.

That's the right answer, "Awestruck". I asked it in such a way that I hoped it was obvious --- He is the righteousness and cleansing and regenerating for all who believe and receive Him. :-)

I think what distinguishes someone saved from someone not saved is that God is in them. They've met Him and have His Spirit actually in them.

Excellent --- agree perfectly.

But what I need is to....I think I have given the wrong impression here.
Honestly, I was having some real struggles...

We all do; temptation and persecution and affliction are real for all of us. Jesus actually told us that belonging to Him will anger the world, for the world follows the evil one. We will be hated on Jesus' account, and some of us may even die; but He is beyond the world, and we've already entered eternity when we enter Jesus-the-door.

...that I was having trouble finding any help for, but I did finally get some help, and while it isn't over by a long shot, I'm okay.

Praise God for that. People on an internet site can love you and encourage you, and can help to the best of their ability; but there's no substitute for one-on-one face to face interaction.

I still don't see how it is possible that a man could have His Spirit one day and then not have His Spirit the next, and lose his salvation, but I don't think I'm going to find an answer no matter who tries to explain it to me. I don't see how it is possible that anyone who has met Him would decide they don't want to know Him anymore, and even if they did, I don't think He would let it happen. I think once you've been sealed with His Spirit, He is never going to abandon you. Even when we aren't faithful, He is. If no one can snatch you from His hand, but I could goof it up and lose Him, then that's no good, because I AM the worst danger to myself. What good would it be to know that no one else could snatch me from His hand, while knowing that I myself - my biggest danger - could do it?

I can answer all these, and so can Slug and others. Sin can deceive us away from Jesus, people can, and bad-angels can. We can give you Scriptures in support of this if you wish.

But all of us can find agreement --- if we agree that we must abide in Christ, that we must spend time with Him and communicate, that we cannot walk in sin while expecting to waltz through the gates of Eternal Life, then that's sufficient agreement for us to focus on the main commandment, to share Jesus with a lost and dying world.

I can see from your words we do have that much agreement.

Something's not right here. He can save me from every enemy, but my worst one, He CAN'T save me from?

Understand there are subtle issues that influence the direction of discussions like this. For instance, does "saving-faith" flow in direction from God-towards-men --- that is, are we passive recipients of His sovereign grace, as "Reformed Theology" perceives? Or is "saving-faith" something that we consciously choose? Such a conscious choice is often seen as "merit/works salvation", and raises strong objections. Of course we do object to the idea of "works-salvation"; but what if God really does effectively draw every Human to the point where he or she CAN believe, and then permits each to choose? How else could God judge mankind?

He can assure me that I am safe in my eternal life from every human, demon, and satan himself, but there is one human who does have the power to snatch me from His hand and undo His sealing with the Spirit, and it's me.

What do you mean by "snatch"? Are you thinking of John10:26-28? The Greek is "harpazo", which means sieze or remove forcibly. No one can force us away from Jesus; and Scripture does not say they can. But are we immune to being deceived?

Something's not right there. I had hoped slug might be able to put it all together in a way that made sense to me.

Well, I really hope I'm not stepping on his toes --- his posts are excellent. He and I often say the same things. :-)

There are two extremes here, like with every never ending debate. There has to be a way to weave it all together in a harmony that makes God stronger than me.

On what I said about "faith" --- if faith comes from us, and is something God receives from us, then do you think it's a one-time-deal, or do we practice faith constantly?

I don't see enough teaching on "prayer". Prayer is our hotline to God. Many people engage in PETITION --- "God give me ____, make me ____" (as if God's some kind of "cosmic Santa"). But there are other facets. He inhabits praise and worship; He is worthy, and when we praise Him He inhabits us. There is the prayer of confession, with the confidence He forgives (1Jn1:9) and FORGETS (Heb8:12). There is the prayer of intercession; when we're praying for our friends, family, loved-ones, AND ENEMIES, it is impossible to be selfish. And "selfish" is the opposite of "Christian". There is the prayer of thanksgiving --- thankfulness is the heart of humility, and unthankfulness is the root of sin. There is the prayer of fellowship --- realizing that the veil tore for YOU (Matt27:51). Washed clean by His blood, YOU are invited behind the veil, into the very presence of God. God delights in your company, celebrates your fellowship; His thoughts of you outnumber the grains of sand. Then there is "waiting-on-God", stilling our thoughts and voices, and waiting on His voice. Last (and least!) is the prayer of petition. If we walk in the other prayers FIRST, then we will not run afoul of James4:3. The secret of Psalm37:4 is that if we are delighting in the Lord, then His desires will be our desires; His heart will be ours.

THAT is how His power enables us, and it's what James meant in 4:7-10. If we agree on "fellowshipping with God and Jesus", then that's most of the discussion.

:-)

[awestruckchild]

I was hoping for slug, but I see that you will do just fine!! Thanks for being willing to talk about this. It is nice to talk instead of argue!

When you say that sin can deceive us away from Jesus, can you define sin for me?
The reason I ask is because I do things that other people view as "sinning" that I don't have any real concern for or about. He only really deals with one particular sin with me. It seems to be all He really wants me to focus on stopping.
============
I have never heard anyone describe this as you have, and had concluded that I must be the only person to believe it...it has bothered me very much to hear people talk about "free will" in the manner that they proclaim it, as if they were saved because they made the right choice to believe whereas others made the wrong choice to not believe and so have not been saved. Because of my own experience, I see that something is wrong there. I know that I had no choice but to not believe He was true until I could SEE that He was true. There wasn't a choice there, and the entire Gospel shows me this was so because He came to open blind eyes, and blind men do not ever come to see simply by choosing or deciding to see. This isn't how it works. Blind men only come to see if someone GIVES them their sight, through an operation. But AFTER I could see, then something of this "free will" made sense. Because though it is a tremendous struggle at times, at every moment of my life, I face a spot where I have to make a choice to either believe and follow what Jesus said, or make a choice to believe what someone else says. It seems this shouldn't be the struggle that it is, but at times it is gargantuan. It isn't always someone else trying to convince me away from believing what He said. Often, it is my own mind trying to do it, all on it;s own, without any help. All that was just to say that...you are the first person I have ever heard echo my own thoughts on this, when you broke it into two parts - first that He makes it so you CAN see, and then you make a choice. Except it hasn't been a one-time choice for me. It is a choice I have to make many times in even a single day.

I had some more questions about your post, but since I have run on for so long, I will save them for later. I am happy I have met you, Gadgeteer.

Well, maybe just one more question. When you asked if we were immune to being deceived, it's obvious from my post that I am not. Many times, I make the decision wrong and choose to believe something that goes against what He said. But the thing is, He doesn't leave me in that wrong turn. He shows me that it WAS a wrong turning. Honestly, it doesn't seem to me that I do it blatantly on purpose. It is more like I do it because something He has said has been misunderstood by me. Or maybe it is more accurate to say, He said one thing and I seem to understand it, but then I find where He said another thing that seems to be the complete opposite, and I either forget the first thing to go with the second, or I ignore the first thing and choose the second instead of being able to see how they really DON'T oppose each other. I am running on again. I guess my question is, seeing as how He has been so faithful to turn me right, even when I am deceived, (either not blatantly on purpose, or other times when I am trying to play a clever trick because I don't WANT to accept something), then how can I believe that it is possible that I can lose my salvation and have His Spirit ripped from me and not be saved anymore? My experience is that He has been faithful to keep me and turn me right. So why do men feel it is important that I must believe that I face the danger of losing Him? It isn't that I am just refusing to believe it, it is that my experience is that He hasn't allowed it to happen, so I am not ABLE to believe it. I think it is that I trust Him to much to be able to believe it.
Sheesh. I just never shut up. Sorry.

[episkopos]

If this doctrine was accurate in that a person's belief in Christ is SECURE... then why is God giving this warning?

2 Peter 3:¹⁷ You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

This is due to the fact that man does not possess God for himself. It is the other way around.

[Gadgeteer]

Hi, “Awestruckchild”! Did you see what Bandit cited above?

1Tim1:5 "The goal of our commandment is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith."

This embodies 1Jn4:20, about how if we do not love brothers then we cannot love Jesus.

Thanks for being willing to talk about this. It is nice to talk instead of argue!

I think “Slug1” would discuss this fine also, perhaps better. :-)

When you say that sin can deceive us away from Jesus, can you define sin for me?

The literal definition of “sin” is falling short of the mark. It is going against God’s will (and I believe Rom12:3 says God has ONE will). There is a “sin of commission”, and a “sin of omission”. Though Paul spoke of sins that do not lead to death (and others that do), I perceive the only sins that do not lead to spiritual death are the ones followed by repentance.

Sins never condemn us, just as lack-of-sins never saves us. Only unbelief condemns (Jn3:18, 1Jn5:1); but one who is not saved, by definition dwells in sin (it’s the only location outside of Jesus), and sins expose a heart that was NOT saved --- this fits Rom2:8, and Rev20:13.

Regarding "sin being able to deceive us away from Christ" --- Jn3:20-21 has Jesus saying that people can choose to pursue righteousness, so they come to Jesus-the-light; others can pursue sin, so they avoid the light lest their sins be exposed. James says in 1:14-16 that we are tempted when enticed and carried away by our own lusts --- lust conceived births sin, and sin brings death. "Do not be deceived, beloved brethren".

Being deceived by sin away from God is also clear in Hebrews3:6-14. It's the warning of Hebrews4:11, where we're warned not to fall and fail to enter God's rest by imitating Israel's disobedience and unbelief (see Heb3:18-19).

The reason I ask is because I do things that other people view as "sinning" that I don't have any real concern for or about. He only really deals with one particular sin with me. It seems to be all He really wants me to focus on stopping.

I don’t know what your sin is; but the essence of salvation is “Christ-in-you” (Gal2:20), also indwelt by the Spirit (Eph5:18). As such, ANY sin is us turning our backs on the indwelling Savior and Spirit. God will not participate in sin! What is critical when we sin, is what we do next --- do we turn BACK to Him and throw ourselves on His mercy begging forgiveness? Or do we sin again? So you see it is not the SIN that is the problem, but the AGAIN.

I have never heard anyone describe this as you have, and had concluded that I must be the only person to believe it...it has bothered me very much to hear people talk about "free will" in the manner that they proclaim it, as if they were saved because they made the right choice to believe whereas others made the wrong choice to not believe and so have not been saved.

Recognize “Once Saved Always Saved” is in fact three separate and distinct beliefs; each must be addressed by its own claims. But part-n-parcel of all “OSAS” views is the thought that ”If they aren’t saved NOW, then they were never REALLY saved in the FIRST place.” There are plenty of verses that speak of "falling", with no proof those who fell were never truly saved.

Doctrines are usually complicated structures, built of many bricks. We must disassemble our whole doctrines, being wary of preconceptions, and examine every brick and verse; and then assemble them the way the verses fit together. Start with the foundation --- what is the foundation of salvation?

The Greatest Commandment, on which all law and prophets base, is ”You shall LOVE GOD with all that you are”. Matt22:37. Is this a command that God thinks we can DO? Does He expect us TO do it? Yes, and yes. Please read Acts17:26-31 --- God arranges for EACH of us to be able to seek Him and perhaps find Him, though He is not far from ANYONE. He has commanded all men everywhere to repent. This passage connects with Deut30:11-20, and Romans10:6-10; the “word of faith” is placed in everyone’s heart and mouth, each can confess and be saved, or can turn away and perish.

[Gadgeteer]

Because of my own experience, I see that something is wrong there. I know that I had no choice but to not believe He was true until I could SEE that He was true. There wasn't a choice there, and the entire Gospel shows me this was so because He came to open blind eyes, and blind men do not ever come to see simply by choosing or deciding to see.

Why are men blinded? Here is another Biblical subtlety --- in Exodus10:1 God hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Wait --- God CAUSED sin and unbelief in someone? Not exactly; a couple verses earlier Pharaoh hardened his OWN heart --- Ex9:34. So we see something called “Semitic View” (Anthropomorphism) which ascribes to GOD what men do THEMSELVES. No one in Biblical times would read Ex10:1 (or Rom9:18 and think ”God caused sin and unbelief”.

So when we read Mark 4:11-12 or 2Cor4:4, it may appear that God blinded men (or the devil blinded them) --- but it does not conflict Matt13:15 ”they closed their OWN eyes and ears”. Matt13:16 furthers the thought; blessed are those who see --- and that makes no sense if it’s GOD who decides who sees and who doesn’t.

Also, the principle of “believing-because-of-seeing” is clear in Jn10:38, and Jn20:29 (more blessed are those who have NOT seen and yet believe).

This isn't how it works. Blind men only come to see if someone GIVES them their sight, through an operation. But AFTER I could see, then something of this "free will" made sense. Because though it is a tremendous struggle at times, at every moment of my life, I face a spot where I have to make a choice to either believe and follow what Jesus said, or make a choice to believe what someone else says. It seems this shouldn't be the struggle that it is, but at times it is gargantuan. It isn't always someone else trying to convince me away from believing what He said. Often, it is my own mind trying to do it, all on it’s own, without any help. All that was just to say that...you are the first person I have ever heard echo my own thoughts on this, when you broke it into two parts - first that He makes it so you CAN see, and then you make a choice. Except it hasn't been a one-time choice for me. It is a choice I have to make many times in even a single day.

And that’s exactly what Scripture says. When Jude says that God is ABLE to keep us and make us stand before Him blameless (24), that follows the rebuke to “build ourselves in faith” and to “KEEP ourselves in His love”, 20-21. No place in Scripture does it assert that faith is something God gives/does TO us. See 2Tim2:25, where “God-granting-repentance” is another Semitic-view and does not conflict verse 20’s “come to their senses and repent” (just as the Prodigal did in Luke15:17).

Consider the whole idea of “free will” (see Jn7:17); God is love (1Jn4:16), and love cannot demand its own way (1Cor13:5). Therefore it cannot be God’s decision who will believe --- each has to freely choose. Love can be refused, or it isn’t really love. Please look at the rebuke of John5:39-47, where men studied Scripture but REFUSED to come to Jesus to have life. Why? Because they sought their own glory, because they would not believe Moses, but beneath all that because they did not love God.

John5:39-47 contrasts nicely with 2Tim3:15, where studying Scripture can lead to wisdom/conviction which leads to saving-faith in Jesus.

I had some more questions about your post, but since I have run on for so long, I will save them for later. I am happy I have met you, Gadgeteer.

I am honored and blessed by you! I pray that what both of us say will only be Jesus’ words, that the only one who wins in discussions like this is JESUS. :-)

Well, maybe just one more question. When you asked if we were immune to being deceived, it's obvious from my post that I am not. Many times, I make the decision wrong and choose to believe something that goes against what He said. But the thing is, He doesn't leave me in that wrong turn. He shows me that it WAS a wrong turning. Honestly, it doesn't seem to me that I do it blatantly on purpose. It is more like I do it because something He has said has been misunderstood by me. Or maybe it is more accurate to say, He said one thing and I seem to understand it, but then I find where He said another thing that seems to be the complete opposite, and I either forget the first thing to go with the second, or I ignore the first thing and choose the second instead of being able to see how they really DON'T oppose each other.

It’s all a question of “maturing in Him”, as Eph4:13-14 says, to mature manhood to the measure and stature of the fullness of Christ, to no longer be children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Best way to do that is to bury yourself in Scripture, that you come to know what they meant to teach.

It was humbling for me to realize the connection between Deut30:11-20 and Rom10:6-10 and Acts17:26-31. There are many other connections; “ei-dunatos” really does mean “it-is-possible” in Matt24:24, because the same phrase is in Acts20:16.

[Gadgeteer]

I am running on again. I guess my question is, seeing as how He has been so faithful to turn me right, even when I am deceived, (either not blatantly on purpose, or other times when I am trying to play a clever trick because I don't WANT to accept something), then how can I believe that it is possible that I can lose my salvation and have His Spirit ripped from me and not be saved anymore?

Why don’t you look at Hebrews10:26-29? If WE (the writer including himself!) continue in sin, then Jesus’ sacrifice no longer covers us and we’re in danger of fire. Verse 29 describes US if we don’t heed the warning of 26, a man who was sanctified by Jesus’ blood (how could that possibly refer to a “never-saved” man?), now scorns that very blood, tramples Jesus and insults the Spirit. The entire letter of Hebrews is warning against “falling-from-salvation”. So is Galatians, James, and 2Peter.

My experience is that He has been faithful to keep me and turn me right.

James 5:19-20 says if one is led BACK then he is saved and his sins covered/forgiven. Jesus prayed for Peter that he NOT fail, but when he TURNED BACK (epistrepho!) he’d strengthen his brothers, Lk22:31-32. Romans11:18-31 says that if those who were cut off from Jesus do not continue in unbelief, they’ll be grafted in again.

So why do men feel it is important that I must believe that I face the danger of losing Him?

It’s not, as long as you dwell in Him. But it’s hard or impossible sometimes to defend against dangers that we don’t believe exist. Please read 2Cor11:3 --- what is the risk? How about Acts20:28-29 --- are SAVED SHEEP really at risk?

It isn't that I am just refusing to believe it, it is that my experience is that He hasn't allowed it to happen, so I am not ABLE to believe it. I think it is that I trust Him to much to be able to believe it.

I’m really pleased and proud of your strong faith; I pray that you and I both remain strong in Him. As long as we do, this is not an issue. But --- when confronted with temptation/affliction/persecution (like those in Lk8:13 & Mk4:17), perhaps something we discussed will come BACK to us and strengthen us to stand.

God does call us back when we wander; but must we return? Please read 2Tim1:12-14 --- we see it’s by the Spirit’s power that we guard the treasure (eternal life) which God entrusts to us. His power, but whose decision? Paul’s admonishment only makes sense under “continuous choice”. Just as you said, “daily, not one-time”. His power, our faith. See 1Pet1:9!

Sheesh. I just never shut up. Sorry.

No need to worry. They say “there are no stupid questions”; and usually the ones we ask, dozens of other people reading these threads are thinking “Yeah, what he asked!”

May God bless you and keep you.
:-)

[awestruckchild]

Gadgeteer,

No, I have to say I did not read Bandits comment. The only comments I read in here were the op and yours after you specifically addressed a post to me. It was not to be rude but because I just can't bear to slog through the arguing in threads. But after I read your post, I went and read Bandits post, and it is very good, I think! I do not get into such intricacies usually because I have all I can do keeping myself busy with where I say I am following Jesus when completely disregarding His commands on things like not worrying about provision for tomorrow WHEN tomorrow comes, and not stockpiling so I can stop depending on Him every moment like Israel in the desert. It is extremely difficult to keep following His instruction when the whole world has gone after these other ways. It's like something in me wants to run with the pack, and this is maybe partly because the world has set itself up to accommodate following the pack and it just seems easier than the way He demands.
I do believe as Bandit says that God is concerned that we believe He IS, but it isn't just done with there because honestly, this isn't enough. Adam and Eve believed He is, but their problem is my problem. Allowing someone else to hink around with what God has said (or allowing myself on my own to hink around with it) and deciding to see if I can try to accommodate both what God has said and someone else has said, or what seems to be something I would like to do because it would make me feel secure.

I have to think about these two kinds of sins, commission and omission....I'm not sure this distinction is important to God. I think maybe, because of how He deals with me, that addressing sins of commission and stopping them is putting a bandaid on a mortal wound, or cleaning the outside of the cup. For instance, has it done me any good to fuss over not being sharp or curt in my replies to others if inside I am doing just that? But if I listen to Him and take to heart when He explains to me that my curt replies are NOT a problem that is fixed by just stopping doing it on the outside when I am fuming that the person just doesn't know how to be polite, then I can stop blaming them for what has ensued and begin to see when He shows me that they aren't the problem but instead pride inside of me is, which leads me to want to defend myself and cut them down a notch, and how this is loving and having concern for myself instead of Him.

I will go look at those two verses. I am still missing something that will tie this all together, I am sure. The two extremes can be made to work together to have seemingly opposing verses fit together as they are meant to...I want to not ignore some verses at the expense of being so extreme with the others because I am always heading sideways when I do this. If I am wrong to depend wholly on His faithfulness to keep me and am supposed to fear that He might not always find me or be able to get through to me to lead me the right way, then I want to know and accept this, no matter HOW panicked it might make me. Panic is better than believing a lie I suppose. Thanks Gadgeteer.

[awestruckchild]

And now I see that you have posted twice more. Going to read them now. Didn't know you had more to say before I responded!!

[Slug1]

Hi slug,
I have not read this thread and that probably seems rude, but I have read so many threads in the last few years with this same title that I didn't understand and I don't want to hear arguments right now. But I have a question and I don't want to hear an argument on it either. I only want to hear your answer. Sorry if it sounds rude that I only want to hear what you have to say on it and that I won't be reading anyone elses answers. Sorry guys. So I've done my apologizing for breaking in on a thread to ask a question only of Slug.

I've had a colossal failure in obedience lately. I'm pretty torn up over it (as I should be) but I still know I am in Him and He is in me, and I still have the Holy Spirit. My failure has not had any affect on his love for me and it has not caused Him to remove His Spirit from me.

I have a hard time with extremes in preaching. I have a hard time with extremes in just about anything. So I struggle with this a lot because I read threads where the whole Gospel is not preached and only one extreme is preached.

This happened to me - AGAIN - in a thread recently. It is distressing because no matter the argument, opposing...teams face off, each one presenting and defending one extreme, with neither ever being able to see and present the beautiful cohesiveness that the Gospel and the bible are, the extremes woven together to make the beauty and peace that they just naturally do.

You are one of the few men I have run across who is able to do this sometimes with a topic, and this is how I know God teaches you. So my question is: if you have the time and you feel inclined, could you maybe present for me and help with my confusion on this matter, a weaving together of Him never leaving me and the amazing assurance I have of this, with the other extreme, so I can maybe find some cohesiveness on this?

I know it is a lot to ask and it isn't that I am trying to get you to do all of my work for me, but I just know from past experience, that reading through this thread will NOT clear up my confusion, but will only make it worse.

I need to understand this, how it is possible for me to do something that would cause Him to abandon me, while still walking in complete trust in His promises of never leaving me. I need to hear the extremes woven together in some semblance that brings peace and trust. I need to be done with this fracture in me that sometimes feels like an adopted child who better watch her step or the family might toss her out.

If you have the time, thank you. If you don't, I understand. Thanks slug.

Awestruckchild, being tempted and failing to resist is not going to cause Jesus to leave you. It's when a person stops failing to resist and resists no more when there is a problem. The fact is, you don't have to fear that problem because a person who has stopped resisting, would not be asking the questions you are asking... instead, they'd stop fellowshipping on a board like this or with anyone who is Christian, they'd stop going to church or care about church, care about Jesus, care about being in obedience!

They would completely return to the world.

Now, the root of this is this colossal failure in obedience that is tearing you up. So... is it guilt or conviction you are feeling? Conviction feels like guilt by DRIVES a person to face God in surrender and fills them with a desire to END sin. Ultimately conviction will lead to the building UP of a Christian. On the other hand, guilt and conviction initially feel the same but the difference is that guilt will NOT drive a person to face God in surrender and they are NOT filled with a desire to END sin. Ultimately guilt will lead to the tearing down of a Christian...

This is why a Christian feels torn down when they are filled by guilt and not conviction... guilt is of satan and conviction is of the Holy Spirit. When a person is guilt ridden, they feel bad, say they won't do it anymore but have NOTHING to guide them or help them against the temptation. WHY... because guilt is not of God and a Christian who happens to be failing against temptation is falling INTO the hands of satan and OUT of the hands of God. Eventually, satan doesn't even need to tempt them and they seek sin out... these are Christians who have returned to the world. The thing is... some still DO go to church.

Also... with conviction, it begins as the temptation is touching you or presented TO you and the conviction is a WARNING. Guilt can't begin until AFTER lack of resistance of the temptation and thus, once sin happens... THEN guilt begins.

Also... those who play the one foot in the world and one food in the Kingdom of God. The Bible WARNS us about being double-minded. If a Christian could NOT BE double-minded then the Bible would NOT warn us about the problems with being double-minded. If a Christian couldn't be double-minded then we'd have no need to be warned NOT to be double-minded. A person who is NOT a Christian CANNOT BE double-minded and HAVE one foot in the world and the other in the Kingdom of God.

Also... ONLY a Christian can be lukewarm. Think about this truth... a person who has not accepted Christ CAN'T ever be labeled double-minded or lukewarm!!!!!! The Bible has NOTHING good to say about those who ARE double-minded or lukewarm but the truth remains... ONLY Christians can be either one. If OSAS is correct... then being lukewarm or double-minded WOULD NOT MATTER. If OSAS is correct... then a Christian can't be lukewarm or double-minded... which leads to this question... how does a person who has NEVER been IN CHRIST, get spit back out?????

Now... read this scripture and go into fasting and prayer and seek Jesus in placing this scripture DEEEEEEEEEEPPPPP into your heart so that you can LIVE as this scripture instructs Christians to live:

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

This is HOW Christians lives a life that is NOT double-minded or lukewarm!!

[Gadgeteer]

This is due to the fact that man does not possess God for himself. It is the other way around.

Hi, Episkopos!

Referring to 1Jn5:12:

"He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. I write this that ...you may know you have eternal life."

What does that mean to you? Is it kinda "possessing" God, in a received/abiding sense?

:-)