OSAS Question

[Bandit]

v2Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;^[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Takes away what?

Bearing fruit generates pruning, which results in ability to generate MORE fruit... not generating fruit generates REMOVAL, which results in withering and THEN, fire.

Hi Slug1,

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that produce no fruit and branches that produce fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that produced fruit but then stopped producing fruit. ...

Hello mailmandan,

I hate to break it to you, but the use of the Greek present participle in this verse encompasses both cases: the branch that never produced, and the one that formerly produced but produces no longer. So you've got no support for your argument here.

[episkopos]

Hello mailmandan,

I hate to break it to you, but the use of the Greek present participle in this verse encompasses both cases: the branch that never produced, and the one that formerly produced but produces no longer. So you've got no support for your argument here.

This is crucial to grasp this. We must continue in the way of truth to continue to benefit thereby. Otherwise Jesus would have commended the one who received the seed with initial gladness but was unable to continue since the cares of this world choked out any fruitfulness due to the shallowness of the ground. We live in a time of shallowness and superficiality. How important it is to "go against the flow" of modern thinking and this more than ever.

[Colight]

Probally against better judgement I decided I would respond to some of your points.
IF you do not like the tone.. remember you set it...

Security is to be found by serving the one true God, not in a doctrine which claims security.

Aka Salvation by works???.... That is in no way securty.. for it depends on your works.
Are you perfect? Sinless? NO!!!!!
IF you are not sinless and perfect.. why would God have any thing to do with your service as a merit to salvation?
And to say you are sinless and perfect you would be LYING!!!! ( another sin)(1 John 1:8,10)

Talking about putting one's faith in a doctrine. I thought we were to find security in Christ, but now you seem to be saying that it is in the OSAS doctrine that we are to find security.

And just what is that Doctrine?
Believe on Christ, even just his very name...and your salvation is secure FOREVER!
( john 1:12, 3:16)

Is it really folly to believe that one must serve the one true God to be saved?

Service to God does not save us, nor does it keep us saved!!( eph 2:8-9, gal 3:2-3)
You are teaching another doctrine, one that is false.

And is it folly to believe that people who were once servants of God can cease to be servants (and thereby serve another God)? If this is impossible, why all the warnings to believers about falling into idolatry?

Yeah they can cease to serve.. but they can not cease to be the creature that God has made them ito thru a birth. THat creature, being spiritualy alive will go to heaven..and there forever have loss for not acheiving what Christ has meant for them to achieve..( 2 cor 5:17)

[Slug1]

Hi Slug1,

In John 15, Jesus mentions branches that produce no fruit and branches that produce fruit (vs. 2) but Jesus says nothing about branches that produced fruit but then stopped producing fruit.

If it's not clear with the John 15 scripture, then divide the scripture with this other scripture so you can understand the meaning of the entire context.

Mt 13: ²² Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

So we can understand the context of scriptures involving the vine, or tree, fruitful, not fruitful and, becoming UNfruitful.

For a person who has BECOME UNfruitful... means that at one time they HAD to BE fruitful. A person who is never in Christ is NEVER on the vine and they can never BE fruitful for them to have the cares of the world overcome them and they become UNfruitful.


The scriptures in John is explaining WHAT happens to those who are on the vine but have become unfruitful.

The scripture in Matthew is the Parable that Jesus spoke so that those who are IN Christ can understand WHY and HOW, this has happened to those who were once fruitful but stopped.

We see this in the Body of Christ a lot... a person of God becoming wrapped up in the world and they reach a point that the world overcomes, they leave church, stop fellowshipping, stop praying, stop reading the Bible... and they turn away from God and return to the world.

OSAS believers will say they were NEVER in Christ... that is a LIE!!

This is why that is a LIE of that doctrine... the Bible explains in all the clarity needed that helps us understand that those who become unfruitful were overtaken by the problems of the world, the lure of the world overcame them and for the PERIOD of time they were IN Christ and were FRUITFUL... this ended when they were REMOVED from the vine due to BEING UNfruitful... they withered, and are/will be burned. Remember... for a person to BE fruitful, they must be IN Christ, in other words... ABIDING! For a person to be UNfruitful means they have STOPPED abiding in Christ!!!!!!

This is why in James chapter 5, Christians are to TURN those who turn to error, BACK to the truth!!! So that those who DO turn to error, will not be burned in the end if a brother or sister turns them BACK to the truth!!

If OSAS was even believable... then there is NO reason for the scripture from James telling us that a brethren who has turned to error MUST be turned back so their soul is SAVED from death.

OSAS means there is NO chance for the soul to see death... if this was remotely true, then why is the Bible telling us to turn a Christian in ERROR, away from error for the salvation of their soul??

[Slug1]

This is crucial to grasp this. We must continue in the way of truth to continue to benefit thereby. Otherwise Jesus would have commended the one who received the seed with initial gladness but was unable to continue since the cares of this world choked out any fruitfulness due to the shallowness of the ground. We live in a time of shallowness and superficiality. How important it is to "go against the flow" of modern thinking and this more than ever.

OK... so I'm long winded in raising this truth of the scriptures

[Slug1]

Thanks for your input....

So you know me and Slug1 love to go toe to toe.. it is nothing personal.. we love each other and have respect for each other.. but that is how tough guys are.

A note for you..
Maybe you should look back over some of my past posts to see how I can to my conclusions before you totally go on the attack...

Saved7 made a really interesting thread that you should review before you address me again.. Thread

You still have to address the other points in that one post of mine where I concluded with a request for the scripture concerning King Saul

You only focused on the scripture request.

[Colight]

You still have to address the other points in that one post of mine where I concluded with a request for the scripture concerning King Saul

You only focused on the scripture request.

Sorry but you will have to go into what you want in a more defined manner.
Exacally which point you would like expanded

[Slug1]

Sorry but you will have to go into what you want in a more defined manner.
Exacally which point you would like expanded

From here:

OK

OK

NO... the scripture says that they are removed, wither, and then tossed in the fire.

Unless you have scripture that means what is removed from the vine, IS used to grow more productive plants... until then, you're making things up.

According to the context of the scriptures presented... the only way for growth and more production is for a person to remain in Christ and be pruned.

If there are other scriptures that show us those who are removed are used to grow others... please, post the scriptures.

In the context of this topic, lets see the scripture. Not "A" scripture about spirit's going to heaven, but in the context of those removed from the vine, withered, burnt up... going to heaven.

Ending here ^^^^^

[Colight]

From here:



Ending here ^^^^^

Whoops...
I exposed a advanced doctrine..
That is above your rank grade..sorry it is only on a need to know basis.

( Brush off for.....It will stray way off OSAS.. and will need set up time as I dig back into my research.... when I was posting I fired from the hip rather than a typical aim.. so I didnt have that reference material fresh at hand)

[mailmandan]

Hello mailmandan,

I hate to break it to you, but the use of the Greek present participle in this verse encompasses both cases: the branch that never produced, and the one that formerly produced but produces no longer. So you've got no support for your argument here.

Hi Bandit,

How does the Greek present participle encompass both cases? How do you get "formerly produced fruit but no longer produces fruit" out of "does not bear fruit," "has no fruit," "fails to bear fruit"? I see failed to formerly produce fruit and presently fails to bear fruit. I agree with Greek scholar AT Robertson. There are two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). A branch that does not abide in the vine and does not bear fruit is a dead branch.

[mailmandan]

This is crucial to grasp this. We must continue in the way of truth to continue to benefit thereby. Otherwise Jesus would have commended the one who received the seed with initial gladness but was unable to continue since the cares of this world choked out any fruitfulness due to the shallowness of the ground. We live in a time of shallowness and superficiality. How important it is to "go against the flow" of modern thinking and this more than ever.

Hi episkopos,

Saving faith is certainly a faith that continues and is not a temporary superficial faith that has no root and produces no fruit. The shallow ground hearer is described as having no root and produces no fruit. The thorny ground hearer also proves unfruitful because the word is choked out. As for the seed sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty. If saving faith results in producing works (at least to some degree), then we can conclude that the 4th soil certainly represented genuine believers. I suppose the question still remains, "can this forth soil eventually become fruitless?" I have to conclude that if this were possible, Christ would have included such a scenario before concluding. There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Crops are produced from "good ground" and there is no mention of choking or withering thereafter.

[mailmandan]

If it's not clear with the John 15 scripture, then divide the scripture with this other scripture so you can understand the meaning of the entire context.

Mt 13: ²² Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

So we can understand the context of scriptures involving the vine, or tree, fruitful, not fruitful and, becoming UNfruitful. For a person who has BECOME UNfruitful... means that at one time they HAD to BE fruitful. A person who is never in Christ is NEVER on the vine and they can never BE fruitful for them to have the cares of the world overcome them and they become UNfruitful.

Hi Slug1,

In Matthew 13:22, one may use that argument from the word "becomes" yet other translations say:

Bible in Basic English - put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit.

Complete Jewish Bible - so that it produces nothing.

English Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

New Century Version - So the teaching does not produce fruit in that person's life.

New Revised Standard - choke the word, and it yields nothing.

Becomes fruitful is the opposite of becomes unfruitful and "produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing" doesn't seem to support "was previously fruitful but later became unfruitful." Only the 4th soil is described as "good ground" that bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty. A faith that is not rooted and firmly eastablished from the start will not produce good fruit.

The scriptures in John is explaining WHAT happens to those who are on the vine but have become unfruitful.

Yet in John 15, Jesus simply said "does not bear fruit" in contrast with "does bear fruit."

The scripture in Matthew is the Parable that Jesus spoke so that those who are IN Christ can understand WHY and HOW, this has happened to those who were once fruitful but stopped.

When Jesus spoke these words in Matthew 13, how many people at that time, prior to Him being glorified had received the Holy Spirit and were baptized by one Spirit into one body? (1 Corinthians 12:13). When we believe the gospel, we are sealed IN Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise (Ephesians 1:13), but was this yet a reality for believers prior to Christ being glorified? John 7:38,39 - He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. I just can't find the words, "once fruitful but stopped" in the parable of the sower, but I see the words, proves unfruitful, produces nothing, in contrast to produces a crop, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

We see this in the Body of Christ a lot... a person of God becoming wrapped up in the world and they reach a point that the world overcomes, they leave church, stop fellowshipping, stop praying, stop reading the Bible... and they turn away from God and return to the world. OSAS believers will say they were NEVER in Christ... that is a LIE!!

I've seen believers leave church for a time, stop fellowshipping with other believers, become lax in praying and reading the Bible, temporarily backslide away from God, yet later return with a new found zeal to serve the Lord. I've also seen professing Christians leave church, stop fellowshipping, stop praying, stop reading the Bible...and completely turn away from God never to return. We don't infallibly know the hearts of everyone so we can't say for sure whether or not people who leave never to return were saved or not. John does mention those who went out from us, but were not of us in 1 John 2:19. If I could find a verse in the Bible that says someone who was in the body of Christ is no longer in the body of Christ or someone who was sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit became UN-sealed with the Holy Spirit then I could believe it.

This is why that is a LIE of that doctrine... the Bible explains in all the clarity needed that helps us understand that those who become unfruitful were overtaken by the problems of the world, the lure of the world overcame them and for the PERIOD of time they were IN Christ and were FRUITFUL... this ended when they were REMOVED from the vine due to BEING UNfruitful... they withered, and are/will be burned. Remember... for a person to BE fruitful, they must be IN Christ, in other words... ABIDING! For a person to be UNfruitful means they have STOPPED abiding in Christ!!!!!!

I see "in Me" as part of the metaphor of the vine, (in the vine) not in the body of Christ under the New Covenant which was not yet fully established (John 7:38,39; 1 Corinthians 12:13). I see the words "does not bear fruit" and "does bear fruit." I see the words "Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit" and "If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers." A branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine. I still see two kinds of connections with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, and the vital which bears fruit). Whether or not we agree that these unfruitful branches were previously fruitful or not, we can certainly agree that we must abide in Christ in order to bear fruit and apart from Him we can do nothing.

This is why in James chapter 5, Christians are to TURN those who turn to error, BACK to the truth!!! So that those who DO turn to error, will not be burned in the end if a brother or sister turns them BACK to the truth!!

If OSAS was even believable... then there is NO reason for the scripture from James telling us that a brethren who has turned to error MUST be turned back so their soul is SAVED from death.

OSAS means there is NO chance for the soul to see death... if this was remotely true, then why is the Bible telling us to turn a Christian in ERROR, away from error for the salvation of their soul??

I've seen three different interpretations to this passage of Scripture.

The sinner represents someone who is saved and will lose their salvation if they do not turn back from the error of their way. The sinner represents someone who wandered off before becoming born again. They have been exposed to the truth and were among genuine believers, but have not yet fully embraced the truth. Bringing such people back to complete their salvation saves them from death and covers all their sins. The sinner represents a believer who may face physical death for wandering from the truth. Since the word soul (psyche) may mean "life," the clause may be taken as a warning that backsliding may end in physical death.

Reading the notes in more than one Study Bible, I find this statement. The wanderer is either a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored. For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is physical death (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 John 5:16).

In Matthew 26:38, Jesus did say, "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death." Jesus was not saying that His soul was deeply grieved to the point of spiritual death in hell, rather, Jesus was talking about his human life. The same language is used in Revelation, "The second angel poured out his bowl into the sea, and it became blood like that of a dead man; and every living soul [psuche] in the sea died" Revelation 16:3. Every living soul in the sea is every whole being in its entirety that previously lived in the sea. Jesus covered our sins by bringing forgiveness for all our sins through faith in Christ, however, sins can be covered in a different way. In Proverbs 10:12, we read: Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers all sins. In 1 Peter 4:8, we read: Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. In light of this, it appears to be inconclusive that James is saying that a really "saved" person is going to "lose their salvation."

[Colight]

From here:



Ending here ^^^^^

Silly question...
What happens to the Spirit.. which is also God if they are removed from the vine?
The OT saints and even the believers of Christs day only a SELECT few had the the spirit.
Therefore they literally had to stick to him how else was they to learn his teaching and doctrine, from which other source would they would get that nourishment?

Yet since Pentecost..
UNIVERSALLY all BELIEVERS ARE SEALED in the spirit a helper to help us learn doctrine.
This can not be undone.

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

So I have a seal on my forehead that is for the day of redemption..

Those Christ are talking to are not sealed like us post Pentecostal are.
We have double salvation, they have belief with the result of salvation ( gal 3:6 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. ) We have sealing on top of our belief

Also there is the issue of Ownership...

1 Corinthians 6:19-20 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
20 For you were bought at a price. Therefore glorify God with your body.

God owns me...therefore I am his property.

Also...there is the Body element..
1 Corinthians 12
13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

How does that body lose members... I have not found precedence for that.


So We have belief + sealing + ownership +Body aka salvation x4

So maybe you can explain away the belief part..aka you lose belief off to hell with yah...
Now explain away the sealing...How is that removed.
Now explain away the ownership...How is that removed.
Also explain.. how Christ saws off members of his body..(and we thought the cross was bad!!)

[Slug1]

Hi Slug1,

In Matthew 13:22, one may use that argument from the word "becomes" yet other translations say:

Bible in Basic English - put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit.

Complete Jewish Bible - so that it produces nothing.

English Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

New Century Version - So the teaching does not produce fruit in that person's life.

New Revised Standard - choke the word, and it yields nothing.

Becomes fruitful is the opposite of becomes unfruitful and "produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing" doesn't seem to support "was previously fruitful but later became unfruitful." Only the 4th soil is described as "good ground" that bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty. A faith that is not rooted and firmly eastablished from the start will not produce good fruit.



Yet in John 15, Jesus simply said "does not bear fruit" in contrast with "does bear fruit."

I'll just comment about all this part... semantics.

It all means what it means and the meaning is... a person that is on the branch is found fruitless. Whether it's... became unfruitful, has yielded nothing, not produced fruit, gives no fruit etc, etc etc...

The main part of the meaning is clear... some"one" is on the vine and unless they begin to do something, they are gonna be removed.

That is all that needs to be really understood.

The problem is accepting that, that someone is ON the vine in the first place. OSAS will say such an unfruitful (or pick any of the many you wrote up) someone was NEVER saved in the first place and that is the reason they fell away from Christ.

That don't make sense because for that "someone" to be on the vine to become unfruitful (or pick any of the many you wrote up)... then they first must HAVE accepted Christ to be on the vine at all. Thus... they are in Christ before the problem with being unfruitful (you pick), singled them out for removal from the vine.

[Slug1]

From Post #185 This thread.

1 Sam 28:19
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

Samuel, stating Saul AND HIS SONs will join him in Paradise.

Really? I think this is nothing more than a very questionable interpretation. So are you really going to hang your OSAS belief system on your interpretation of a single passage such as this? This is not a good way to try to prove your point.

Colight, I have to side with Bandit on this, here's why: the scriptures are contested by many concerning the meaning of this "Samuel" so I lean toward the medium was talking with a DEMON when the spirit of Samuel spoke... it was a LIE. Maybe because God has me serving in a Deliverance Ministry for several years now and the amount of demonic manifestations over the years has just made me VERY aware of their tactics and lies... I lean toward this medium was speaking to a demon and not Samuel, who was dead. HOWEVER, what can be discerned from the scripture is that the demon is of satan so when it said that Saul was going to be with him... I believe that was NOT a lie because all that God forsakes (as He did with Saul due to Saul's constant disobedience) aren't gonna be eternally with Him.

The scripture you present is so contested as to the meaning that I'm surprised you would use it as support for OSAS.

Tell me, would you "trust" a medium today and actually use what a "spirit" of a dead person spoke THROUGH a medium to you??

The same spirits that provided information to that women when King Saul was forcing her to divine info, are the same spirits providing information to mediums today.

If you even tried to gather info through a medium... well, let's just say, you said it the BEST:

WHAT FOOLISH FOLLY!!!

Do you believe mediums speak with the actual spirits of those who are dead? If your answer is NO, then why believe that medium King Saul was speaking with was actually speaking with the spirit of Samuel??