Yes; but "backslidden" is not saved.
Originally Posted by mailmandan
True. But context shows he was somewhere he could wander away from, and it was a place he could be brought back TO. Clearly "faithlessness" and "unforgiven sins" are in view; has to be movement to "unsalvation".
Actually, I was pointing out that "death" can either refer to "physical" or "spiritual death." Is that true or false?
The context has two opposing positions; "wandered-from-faith-soul-death" (unsaved!), and "saved-covered-sins" (has to be "restored salvation").
I also showed you how 1 Peter 4:8 says, Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.
James 5:20 says cover a multitude of sins.
So if we love others, does that mean sins will be washed away or covered in a lesser sense? Sins of others covered by love as a veil thrown over them?
Right; but in James' words a man can wander away from a place he actually had been ("in the faith"!), to a place where he is soul-dead and unforgiven-sins.
In Matthew 20:18 - ...the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death - thanatos.
Of course, spiritual condemnation is not in view. In Matthew 26:38, Jesus did say, "My soul [psuche]
is deeply grieved, to the point of death" - thanatos.
I'm just comparing Scripture with Scripture. If we interpreted all Scripture at face-value, then we would conclude that we are saved by works "justified by works" (James 2:24) and that we are saved by baptism "baptism now saves us" (1 Peter 3:21). Of course, you and I know that we are not saved by water and works. That would contradict other passages of Scripture. Scripture must harmonize with other Scripture or else these face-value interpretations would contradict other Scripture.
It is recoverable; as Rom11:23 says, "if they do not continue in unbelief".
If "upset" the faith of some means they "had saving faith but no longer do" because someone said the resurrection has already happened, they had an extremely weak faith! What kind of faith is that? 1 Timothy 6:10 and 6:21says wandered
from the faith, which according to James 5:19,20 is recoverable.
The race-for-salvation is an individual race; each runs his own race, each wins salvation. See Heb12:1-3, run with endurance the race set before us, fixing our eyes upon Jesus the archegos-leader/prince and teleiotes-chief-example of faith; and let us not grow weary and lose heart, considering the example He set by the Crucifixion.
In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words - the reference is to the great test as to whether Christ is in a person; in 2 Tim. 3:8 of those "reprobate concerning the faith," i.e., men whose moral sense is perverted and whose minds are beclouded with their own speculations; in Titus 1:16, of the defiled, who are "unto every good work reprobate," i.e., if they are put to the test in regard to any good work (in contrast to their profession),
they can only be rejected. If disqualified for the prize means disqualified for salvation, then this chapter is very confusing. Verses 17-18 say, For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. verses 24-25 say, Do you not know that in a race all the runners run,
but only one receives the prize?
So run that you may obtain it.
Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath,
but we an imperishable.
This sounds like an Olympic race to me. All
runners run, but only one
receive a gold medal. Is everyone else disqualified from the race?
And yet Ezk18:24 says a righteous man can BECOME wicked, and die. Make a choice (Ezk18:31-23) is the theme of Scripture. Most eloquent in Deut30:11-20, where "hold fast" is part of the choice...
Proverbs 24:16 says, For a righteous man may FALL seven times And rise again,
But the wicked shall fall by calamity. If born-again was fallible because of sin, then all who are born again would become un-born again because we are not sinless. Fall does not necessarily mean that we permanently fall and never get back up again, as stated in Proverbs 24:16.
I certainly don't; the works expose where the heart WAS --- he who abides in Christ has good works (even as James said), but he who has evil works reveals a heart that did not know Christ.
We all need warnings. Unbelievers need to be warned that if they don't believe, they won't be saved. Believers can experience all kinds of problems if they do not heed warnings. I came from a Roman Catholic background in which I associated NOSAS with works salvation. It took time for me to disassociate works salvation with everyone who teaches NOSAS. After having many discussions with various people on this forum, I can see that not everyone in the NOSAS camp teaches works salvation.
I've heard good arguments come from believers who teach NOSAS and OSAS, but we must certainly reject "works salvation" on the extreme side of the NOSAS camp and a "license to sin" on the extreme side of the OSAS camp.
I think it's more subtle than that; it's as if we can walk in such a way as that there IS a high wall protecting us, and we can walk in such a way that there is no wall at all. Thus:
If I am mistaken and it is possible for a really "saved" person to really "lose their salvation," then I would say that our salvation is as secure as a man walking along the edge of a cliff that has a high wall between him and the edge. He is secure. But, he is still free to climb the wall and go over the other side.
Col2:6-8 "Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. "
Walk in Him, established and built-up in faith (the wall), and do not be taken captive away from Jesus by worldly deception (no wall).
Right. It teaches "protected by the power of God through faith", and "build yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love".
The Bible does not paint a picture of a Christian living on a tightrope that he or she might slip off of suddenly, but neither does it teach that someone can continuously practice sin as a willful habitual lifestyle and be a Christian at the same time.
No wonder! It took me considerable time to type the reply! But you are worth it, even if we don't agree; and I pray you and I are of benefit to others reading.
I'm out of time. Good discussion!
It is a good discussion!!!