OSAS Question

[Gadgeteer]

What kind of belief becomes broken?

True-saved-belief that gets deceived into unbelief, even as we just read --- "hearts hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God" --- don't do this!

This seal that the Holy Spirit places upon us indicates ownership. A seal indicates that the contents are not to be tampered with until they arrive at their destination.

No, that would be "sealed un-TIL" --- but it says "sealed un-TO". Unto is a promise, and it can be broken; until is a guarantee that's not there.

You mentioned in Ephesians 4:30 that "until" instead of "unto" the day of redemption would support OSAS, yet Ephesians 1:14 does say, guarantee of our inheritance "until" the redemption of the purchased possession..

NASV says "...who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." We can look at the Greek if you wish; it's not guaranteed.

My view of OSAS is "eternal security of the believer," not eternal presumption of all who profess to believe.

And we've just read verse after verse that warns "Don't MOVE away from God".

If corruptions and defilements are the same idea, then why are they two different Greek words with two different definitions? Why didn't Peter just simply use the word "corruption-phthora" in chapter 2 as well?

Which one does not mean "sins"?

Corruption is deeper than pollutions.

Which one does not mean "impure"? Is there a corrupt-PURE? Or a defiled-PURE? Is that what you're arguing?

Why is "partakers of the divine nature" connected with "escaped the corruption that is in the world" in chapter 1 yet not connected with "escaped the pollutions of the world" in chapter 2? I'm looking for solid conclusive evidence.

When those in chapter 1 "escaped corruptions", did they escape sin by the saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus? Yes.

When those in chapter 2 "escaped defilements", did they escape sin by the saved-knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus? Yes!

I believe the point is that the dogs and pigs are still dogs and pigs.

A dog WANTED to escape vomit? A pig WANTED to escape mire? You ever see a dog or pig want to escape defilements? It's the same thing as "the soils" --- a good soil is one THAT believed/persevered, a bad soil is one that believed but DID NOT persevere. They did not heed the "do-not-move" warning.

He didn't need to. "Good ground, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it and bear fruit with patience" says it all.

No, you're not recognizing an implied (presumed) dictate; you perceive "they held fast BECAUSE they were saved/good, the others fell BECAUSE they were rocky/unsaved". But one cannot fall from where one never was; those in Luke8:13 (Mk4:17) believed joyfully but when confronted with temptation/persecution/affliction they FELL AWAY. They did not "remain dogs and pigs", they did not "hold true to their bad-soil-nature", they FELL.

They were rocky because they fell; the others were good because they held fast.

The first group moved, the second group heeded the "DO NOT MOVE" warning.

We cannot deny the reality of movement.

[Gadgeteer]

In James 2:19, we read - You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! The word "believe" (pisteuo), can describe "mere mental assent" belief (James 2:19) or also include "trust and reliance" in Christ for salvation belief (Acts 16:31). If "believed" in Luke 8:13 equated to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ in Acts 16:31, then why is this belief without root and where is the fruit?

Apples and oranges. Those in Jms2:19 were not believers when they went out --- is it possible by the wording that they were believers once, but fell from belief and went out? Yes! They COULD have been believers last year! Last week! Yesterday!!!

The context of Luke8:13, is verse 12 --- "believe-and-BE-SAVED". In literally the same breath verse 13 says "they believed" --- but you impose "it's a DIFFERENT belief, they were NOT SAVED". How is belief in 13 different than belief two dozen or so words earlier?

How can a belief that is described as having "no root" and produces "no fruit" be descriptive of saving belief?

Because it MOVED! Belief that is uprooted still was once rooted!!! They did not heed the warning "do-not-move", "make-sure-your-roots-are-DEEP"!

"Therefore (against the man who WAS PURIFIED from former sins), be all the more diligent to make your calling and election FIRM/STEADFAST; as long as these fruits are yours ...you will not stumble/ptaio/become-wretched ...in THIS way the gates of God's kingdom will BE ...provided to you!" 2Pet1:5-11

Same context as 2:1:1-4, and 2:2:20-22. "DO NOT MOVE" --- make sure your roots are deep. Be good soil, do not be rocky. Many verses warn us "don't be like those who FELL" or "don't be wicked" (2Pet1:9-10, Heb4:11 & 6:11-12, Eph4:17-18 etcetera). Why warn the saved not to be like the wicked, if it's not possible to fall?

Is there anything in what I'm saying that's not solid, Dan?

Yet the demons believe and are not saved (James 2:19). In Acts 8:13, we see that Simon "believed," but the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done"

Again, apples and oranges; on what basis is "believe-and-be-saved" clear in Luke8:12, [b]but it is "believe-WITHOUT-being-saved" in Luke8:13? [quote]

Later, Simon gives himself away when he offers to buy the Holy Spirit with money (vs. 18-19), and in verses 20-23, Peter denounces Simon, showing that Simon's "belief" was NOT genuine saving faith. *But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity." That doesn't sound like saving belief to me. Most likely, Simon had some sense that Jesus was "true," but his faith was in His power to do miracles, rather than His power to forgive sin. By becoming a so-called follower of Jesus, Simon hoped to obtain the same ability to perform wonders.

You find a verse that speaks of "belief-without-salvation", and that qualifies your perception of Luke8:13; but it does not fit the context.

Luke8:12 "...believe-and-be-saved"
Luke8:13 "They received the word with JOY and believed" (...but were not saved).

Really? "believe" is saved in 12, but "believe" is NOT saved in 13? Why?
If it wasn't SAVING belief in 13, what did they fall FROM? Ya' can't fall down if yer' not up.

These plants have no root, they bear no fruit, and they do not persevere. How does that represent "saved"?

WHY did they not have root? How does 2Pet2:5-11 fit in? "Make your calling and election/salvation FIRM". Make your roots deep!

Do you see it, Dan? The doctrines of "OSAS" seem solid to those who hold them (else they wouldn't hold them); but what you're holding, including "no-movement", is melting. Do you see?

No, it's because they had no root and produced no fruit. Faith without works is dead. Their faith was not firmly rooted or established from the start.

We have no evidence that they did not produce fruit at first. They must have produced fruit, or they wouldn't have had any place to fall FROM!!!

Is there any other reason to think "believed-but-were-NOT-saved" in 13?

All the reasons that I listed above.

Do you still perceive that? How does "belief" change in a couple dozen words, literally the same breath between Lk8:12-13? OSAS views go through many gyrations trying to survive; for instance 2Jn1:7-9 presumes a subject change first half of verse 9 --- verse 8 is talking to the SAVED, verse 9a UNSAVED, verse 9b back to SAVED. There is no subject-change, Dan; there is movement.

We choose to have a good heart but we don't prepare our hearts apart from the Lord.

That's true; but it's by our own decided faith. 1Pet1:9.

Either our heart is honest and good and ready to receive the word and bear fruit or else it's not.

No, that does not fit 2Pet1:5-11 --- make your salvation firm/steadfast.

The Thirteeners had a belief that had no root. This belief was not firmly rooted or established from the start so of course it did not continue or produce fruit.

It's clear that belief did produce fruit, until they FELL to temptation and affliction and persecution. "Shallow roots" are still roots; the only difference between "shallow roots" and "deep roots", is conscious perseverance; back to 2Pet1:5-11, make your salvation steadfast, make your roots deep.

Only those with saving faith produce good fruit.

No, only those with saving-faith that makes itself FIRM (holds fast and perseveres!) continues to produce good fruit.

Without the Lord, there is no saving faith or perseverance. It's not by our power that we are saved or remain saved.

Not by our power, but by our faith; see 1Pet1:5, 2Tim1:12-14, etcetera.

I see perseverance as a consequence of true salvation. "Have become" partakers of Christ if we continue/consequence. "Will become" or "will remain" partakers of Christ if we continue/cause of it.

I think now we've very much proven "movement". Can you deny it?

Luke 8:13 conveys temporary belief with no root and no fruit. That's why I deny that this belief resulted in salvation.

Again, they had to have been producing fruit (up until they FELL), or they wouldn't have had anywhere to fall FROM.

They fell, Dan; the only place they fell from is "saved". If they were "never really saved", then they did not fall, they remained fallen/unsaved.

It is completely possible to discuss disparate views with kindness and mutual respect; I pray I've embodied respect and love to all with whom I've talked. We all claim to have the same goal --- to serve Jesus and promote the Gospel, to encourage each other in faith and in Christ. Do our words bear out our claim? They do. :-)

Amen! Well said. I pray also that I've embodied respect and love to all with whom I've talked with. I'm with you, same goal --- to serve Jesus and promote the Gospel, to encourage each other in faith and in Christ.

You have --- God is pleased with you, and you're a blessing to us. That's a fact.

One thing that you and I certainly agree on - In the end, those who will be saved will be those who whose faith continues to the end. Saving faith is a faith that continues and is not some superficial temporary faith that has no root and produces no fruit.

And THAT is a serious amount of agreement! WITH that agreement, we both will pursue God with all our hearts, we will dwell in Him and rejoice and fellowship within the veil, and we'll be family forever.

We have probably run this discussion into the ground...

I don't think so. I'm looking forward excitedly to your response to this post; can we still deny "movement"?

but still a great discussion!

I agree.

God bless you!

[mailmandan]

Hi, Dan. You're struggling to perceive these verses in a "non-movement" framework. The verses say:

The message is that we are NOT Christ's house if we DO NOT hold fast. Context says "don't harden your hearts", and "take care lest there be in any of you a hard heart that falls away from God --- encourage one another lest you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin". Movement is 100% there; do not BECOME fallen.
Same context --- we are partners of Christ if we do not HARDEN our hearts and FALL.
We are reconciled to Christ if we do not fall away. It's the same in 2Cor5:20, "BE reconciled to God". 100% warning "not to be moved".
We are saved IF we hold fast and do not fall away. "Do not move" is blatant.
Rom11:20 says "They were broken off for unbelief, you stand by faith; don't be conceited but fear --- if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you." No way to deny movement --- "do not fall". Those who fall will be restored if they don't continue in unbelief --- more movement!
A command to love God and to hold fast -- "don't move away from Him".

Movement is clear in every one of these; specifically, "DON'T move away from God".

Hi Gadgeteer,

Sorry that I couldn't get back with you sooner but I've been out of town since Sunday afternoon.

The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Nothing is mentioned about them previously believing and being saved. God had revealed Himself to these Israelites and chosen them as His people, but that does not mean they were ALL saved and moved from saved to lost. These Hebrews who left Egypt may have began with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but later? Hebrews 3:10-11 - Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' They were exposed to the truth and many miracles, yet later departed from God. They were along for the ride out of Egypt and out of slavery, yet when the going got tough, they showed their true colors. That's still movement even if they were never truly saved. Where was their true commitment to God? There is more than one type of movement. If someone hears and understand the gospel and moves toward Christ and is on the verge of saving belief, but then rebels and turn away, that's still movement even if they did not truly believe the gospel and become saved. In Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers.

You do a good job of making it sound convincing that these above verses teach what you believe, but I'm struggling to find the specific wording, "saved person lost salvation." I already explained that we ARE His house and we HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ is different than "will become" or "will remain" if we continue. *At least we both agree that saving faith continues and is not temporary.* I believe that someone can be exposed to the truth, be among God's people and spend time considering what they heard (yet not end up fully embracing the truth) then harden their hearts and fall away. I still see holding fast, continuing as evidence of saving faith. I'm just not seeing belief saved for certain individuals, unbelief lost again for these same individuals, then back to belief and saved again for these same individuals in Romans 11:22. I see do not continue in unbelief as they were always in unbelief, even though these Jews were the "natural branches." In Deut 30:19, we read: I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. I see choose, not don't move away from your choice.

NASV says "...who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory." We can look at the Greek if you wish; it's not guaranteed.

I don't read no guarantee in the NASV. It is GOD, not us that made the down payment; and it is GOD not us who is making the promise. The NKJV says...who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. The ESV says...who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. The NIV says...who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. Are these translations wrong? The Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says of "arrabon" - originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; in Eph. 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. So Vine's is wrong as well?

As far as the word "believe-pisteuo" is concerned. I don't believe that "all" belief is the same. As I explained to you in James 2:19, the demons "believe-pisteuo" that there is one God, yet they are not saved. Believe-pisteuo on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). Same Greek word yet not the exact kind of belief. Pisteuo can be used to describe mental assent belief or also include trust and reliance in Christ for salvation belief. It depends on the context. I believe that there is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed on him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of mob tactics and attempted murder of the one they have professed to believe (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that “many of his disciples . . . said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).

If it wasn't SAVING belief in 13, what did they fall FROM? Ya' can't fall down if yer' not up.

You can fall before reaching the top on the way up.

WHY did they not have root? How does 2Pet2:5-11 fit in? "Make your calling and election/salvation FIRM". Make your roots deep!

In Luke 8:13, they did not have root because their belief was not firmly established. Luke did not say shallow roots but "no root." The soil was shallow and so was the belief. In 2 Peter 1:10, the NASB reads...be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble. Either He called and has chosen us or else He has not. We need to be certain of this. As long as we practice these things, we will never stumble (to be tripped up, lose one’s footing, or lose salvation?)

New American Standard Lexicon

Ptaio

to cause one to stumble or fall to stumble to err, make a mistake, to sin to fall into misery, become wretched. So it appears that fall or stumble can be used to describe a temporary fall (Matthew 26:31-35; James 3:2) or permanent fall. Verse 8 says, For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. It doesn't say you will "maintain your salvation." Verse 9 says, For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Don't we all start out lacking these things or else why would we be told to "add" these things to our faith? 1 John 3:9-10 says that those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin, so how could someone who is born of God permanently lack these virtues mentioned in 2 Peter 1:5-7?

Again, they had to have been producing fruit (up until they FELL), or they wouldn't have had anywhere to fall FROM. They fell, Dan; the only place they fell from is "saved". If they were "never really saved", then they did not fall, they remained fallen/unsaved.

Yet Luke 8:13 mentions nothing about producing fruit. Only the seed which fell on the "good ground" produced a crop of various sizes and nothing is mentioned about it not producing fruit thereafter. You can fall out of a tree before reaching the top. They fell from what they heard and emotionally responded to but did not fully embrace. You can be in the process of accepting the truth after hearing the truth and considering what you heard and then fall away before actually fully embracing the truth and becoming saved.

I believe that God is pleased with you, and you're a blessing to us as well. Again, one thing that you and I certainly agree on - In the end, those who will be saved will be those who whose faith continues to the end. Saving faith is a faith that continues and is not some superficial temporary faith that has no root and produces no fruit. And as you said, THAT is a serious amount of agreement! WITH that agreement, we both will pursue God with all our hearts, we will dwell in Him and rejoice and fellowship within the veil, and we'll be family forever. AMEN!

Me - We have probably run this discussion into the ground... You - I don't think so. I'm looking forward excitedly to your response to this post; can we still deny "movement"?

Again, I see more than one type of movement. If someone climbs up a tree but falls before reaching the top, there was still movement even though they fell before reaching the top. If someone does not even attempt to climb up the tree in the first place then there is no movement. I shared my beliefs with you and I'll admit that just maybe I am mistaken about OSAS. Maybe I have a mental block of seeing it the same way that you see it because of years spent in the Roman Catholic church and hearing their version of NOSAS attached to works salvation. I spent years of riding a roller coaster of fear and bondage to insecurity before becoming a believer and finally having security in Christ. Fear and bondage to insecurity is not my idea of living the Christian life. If it is possible for a really "saved" person to really "lose their salvation" (even though I can't find those exact words in Scripture) then I believe that these would be extreme cases and it certainly would not be the majority of believers. As you know, I work at the Post Office. Technically, my job is secure as long as I don't steal mail or go Postal. I am very committed to my wife and family and freedom to ever do something that stupid, but there are some people who do it and get fired. Regardless of what the media says, this is not the majority of Postal workers who do this, but some do. This may not be the best analogy to use, but I think you get the picture.

May God continue to bless you my friend and brother in Christ!

[Eyelog]

Hi Gadgeteer,

Sorry that I couldn't get back with you sooner but I've been out of town since Sunday afternoon.

The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Nothing is mentioned about them previously believing and being saved. God had revealed Himself to these Israelites and chosen them as His people, but that does not mean they were ALL saved and moved from saved to lost. These Hebrews who left Egypt may have began with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but later? Hebrews 3:10-11 - Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' They were exposed to the truth and many miracles, yet later departed from God. They were along for the ride out of Egypt and out of slavery, yet when the going got tough, they showed their true colors. That's still movement even if they were never truly saved. Where was their true commitment to God? There is more than one type of movement. If someone hears and understand the gospel and moves toward Christ and is on the verge of saving belief, but then rebels and turn away, that's still movement even if they did not truly believe the gospel and become saved. In Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers.

You do a good job of making it sound convincing that these above verses teach what you believe, but I'm struggling to find the specific wording, "saved person lost salvation." I already explained that we ARE His house and we HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ is different than "will become" or "will remain" if we continue. *At least we both agree that saving faith continues and is not temporary.* I believe that someone can be exposed to the truth, be among God's people and spend time considering what they heard (yet not end up fully embracing the truth) then harden their hearts and fall away. I still see holding fast, continuing as evidence of saving faith. I'm just not seeing belief saved for certain individuals, unbelief lost again for these same individuals, then back to belief and saved again for these same individuals in Romans 11:22. I see do not continue in unbelief as they were always in unbelief, even though these Jews were the "natural branches." In Deut 30:19, we read: I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. I see choose, not don't move away from your choice.



I don't read no guarantee in the NASV. It is GOD, not us that made the down payment; and it is GOD not us who is making the promise. The NKJV says...who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. The ESV says...who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. The NIV says...who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. Are these translations wrong? The Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says of "arrabon" - originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; in Eph. 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. So Vine's is wrong as well?

As far as the word "believe-pisteuo" is concerned. I don't believe that "all" belief is the same. As I explained to you in James 2:19, the demons "believe-pisteuo" that there is one God, yet they are not saved. Believe-pisteuo on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). Same Greek word yet not the exact kind of belief. Pisteuo can be used to describe mental assent belief or also include trust and reliance in Christ for salvation belief. It depends on the context. I believe that there is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed on him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of mob tactics and attempted murder of the one they have professed to believe (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that “many of his disciples . . . said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).



You can fall before reaching the top on the way up.



In Luke 8:13, they did not have root because their belief was not firmly established. Luke did not say shallow roots but "no root." The soil was shallow and so was the belief. In 2 Peter 1:10, the NASB reads...be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble. Either He called and has chosen us or else He has not. We need to be certain of this. As long as we practice these things, we will never stumble (to be tripped up, lose one’s footing, or lose salvation?)

New American Standard Lexicon

Ptaio

to cause one to stumble or fall to stumble to err, make a mistake, to sin to fall into misery, become wretched. So it appears that fall or stumble can be used to describe a temporary fall (Matthew 26:31-35; James 3:2) or permanent fall. Verse 8 says, For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. It doesn't say you will "maintain your salvation." Verse 9 says, For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Don't we all start out lacking these things or else why would we be told to "add" these things to our faith? 1 John 3:9-10 says that those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin, so how could someone who is born of God permanently lack these virtues mentioned in 2 Peter 1:5-7?



Yet Luke 8:13 mentions nothing about producing fruit. Only the seed which fell on the "good ground" produced a crop of various sizes and nothing is mentioned about it not producing fruit thereafter. You can fall out of a tree before reaching the top. They fell from what they heard and emotionally responded to but did not fully embrace. You can be in the process of accepting the truth after hearing the truth and considering what you heard and then fall away before actually fully embracing the truth and becoming saved.

I believe that God is pleased with you, and you're a blessing to us as well. Again, one thing that you and I certainly agree on - In the end, those who will be saved will be those who whose faith continues to the end. Saving faith is a faith that continues and is not some superficial temporary faith that has no root and produces no fruit. And as you said, THAT is a serious amount of agreement! WITH that agreement, we both will pursue God with all our hearts, we will dwell in Him and rejoice and fellowship within the veil, and we'll be family forever. AMEN!



Again, I see more than one type of movement. If someone climbs up a tree but falls before reaching the top, there was still movement even though they fell before reaching the top. If someone does not even attempt to climb up the tree in the first place then there is no movement. I shared my beliefs with you and I'll admit that just maybe I am mistaken about OSAS. Maybe I have a mental block of seeing it the same way that you see it because of years spent in the Roman Catholic church and hearing their version of NOSAS attached to works salvation. I spent years of riding a roller coaster of fear and bondage to insecurity before becoming a believer and finally having security in Christ. Fear and bondage to insecurity is not my idea of living the Christian life. If it is possible for a really "saved" person to really "lose their salvation" (even though I can't find those exact words in Scripture) then I believe that these would be extreme cases and it certainly would not be the majority of believers. As you know, I work at the Post Office. Technically, my job is secure as long as I don't steal mail or go Postal. I am very committed to my wife and family and freedom to ever do something that stupid, but there are some people who do it and get fired. Regardless of what the media says, this is not the majority of Postal workers who do this, but some do. This may not be the best analogy to use, but I think you get the picture.

May God continue to bless you my friend and brother in Christ!

Excellent post, Mailman. You nailed it with precision.

We must ask, I feel, why we are willing to go to the mat on this issue some call OSAS/NOSAS.

The biggest difference between Gadge and i on this is that he sees saved people losing their salvation in the text. I don't see that. I see unsaved people failing to attain to salvation. Otherwise, I feel Gadge and I are in great agreement on most everything else we discussed. Gadge is a great brother in the Lord.

This is actually a huge issue. To frame it as OSAS/NOSAS is a bit of a red herring. In actuality, the issue is, what does it take to get saved and when does it occur. To simply ask if you can lose such a salvation begs the question of what the nature of saving faith is. IOW, if we can know the defn of saving faith, that defn itself will plainly tell us if such a salvation can be lost.

So, if Gadge and Mailman are wanting to discuss, we could start a new thread, or just launch into the saving faith issue right here. OR NOT.

I know you all have defined it a couple of times, but I think a focussed discussion of that, rather than the hunt for lost former saved people in Scripture, would be a good use of time.

God bless, gentlemen.

[Gadgeteer]

Hi Gadgeteer,

Sorry that I couldn't get back with you sooner but I've been out of town since Sunday afternoon.

Hi, Dan! Hope you had a safe and productive trip!

The Lord delivered His people (the Israelites) out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. Nothing is mentioned about them previously believing and being saved. God had revealed Himself to these Israelites and chosen them as His people, but that does not mean they were ALL saved and moved from saved to lost. These Hebrews who left Egypt may have began with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but later? Hebrews 3:10-11 - Therefore I was angry with that generation, And said, 'They always go astray in their heart, And they have not known My ways.' So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest.' They were exposed to the truth and many miracles, yet later departed from God. They were along for the ride out of Egypt and out of slavery, yet when the going got tough, they showed their true colors. That's still movement even if they were never truly saved.

You're not interacting with what I said:

The message is that we are NOT Christ's house if we DO NOT hold fast. Context says "don't harden your hearts", and "take care lest there be in any of you a hard heart that falls away from God --- encourage one another lest you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin". Movement is 100% there; do not BECOME fallen.

When he says "take care lest any of your hearts be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God" --- who is he talking to? To those who have never been saved? He's telling "never-were-believers" not to become hardened to unbelieving hearts? And he's telling those who were never WITH God not to fall away from God? How does that make sense?

Nor does it make sense to be speaking to those who cannot be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God. So who is he writing to?

Where was their true commitment to God? There is more than one type of movement.

No, there's not --- "don't harden your hearts ...take care lest there be in any of you a hard heart that falls away from God --- encourage one another lest you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin". You are exerting great effort to make it into "They were ALMOST believers, but fell from where they NEVER ACTUALLY were". The entire context is not written to "almost believers"; to warn "Do not FALL and fail to enter God's rest by imitating their disobedience (and unbelief)" --- that's nonsense to think he's addressing any sort of UNSAVED people. It would have to say something like: "Be careful that you not CONTINUE to be unsaved/apart-from-God". There is no problem in the rest of Scripture asserting "believe-and-be-saved", why do you think he's really saying "believe-and-be-saved" when he says "don't harden your hearts and fall away from God (and fail to enter God's rest)"?

If someone hears and understand the gospel and moves toward Christ and is on the verge of saving belief, but then rebels and turn away, that's still movement even if they did not truly believe the gospel and become saved.

No, it's not; it's the same thing in Matt23:13-15 --- WERE they actually "entering in", as Jesus said? WERE they "proselytized" as Jesus said? You would have to change Jesus' words from "ARE ENTERING", into "not-YET-entering". Face-value does not support OSAS, only altered text does.

In Hebrews 4:1-2, For indeed the gospel was preached to US as well as to THEM; but the word which THEY heard did not profit THEM, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in My wrath, 'They shall not enter My rest," although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Look at the tense of the Greek "sygkerannymi" --- perfect passive participle. "They were not mixing it with faith" --- you perceive "They NEVER mixed it with faith", when the writer clearly said "They did not CONTINUE mixing it with faith". If they were always disobedient/unbelieving, what purpose does it serve to warn others who are also always-disobedient-unbelieving? The very concept of "FALL" simply would not have been written to those who were ALWAYS unbelieving. He would have said "don't CONTINUE to disbelieve", he would not have said "don't FALL".

What possible argument is there with this?

Obviously, not all of these Hebrews were believers.

So he's warning UNBELIEVERS not to FALL?

piptō
1) to descend from a higher place to a lower
.....a) to fall (either from or upon)
..........1) to be thrust down
.....b) metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation
2) to descend from an erect to a prostrate position
.....a) to fall down
..........1) to be prostrated, fall prostrate
..........2) of those overcome by terror or astonishment or grief or under the attack of an evil spirit or of falling dead suddenly
..........3) the dismemberment of a corpse by decay
..........4) to prostrate one's self
..........5) used of suppliants and persons rendering homage or worship to one
..........6) to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost
..........7) to fall down, fall into ruin: of buildings, walls etc.
.....b) to be cast down from a state of prosperity
..........1) to fall from a state of uprightness
..........2) to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease
...............a) of virtues
..........3) to lose authority, no longer have force
...............a) of sayings, precepts, etc.
..........4) to be removed from power by death
..........5) to fail of participating in, miss a share in

Please tell me how "FALL", becomes "not-really-fall"?

You do a good job of making it sound convincing that these above verses teach what you believe, but I'm struggling to find the specific wording, "saved person lost salvation."

We just read the Greek for "fall" in Heb4:11. Please tell me where they're falling FROM, if they really were NEVER saved?

I already explained that we ARE His house and we HAVE BECOME partakers of Christ is different than "will become" or "will remain" if we continue. *At least we both agree that saving faith continues and is not temporary.*

We're not agreeing; saving-faith does not continue/be-non-temporary; faith THAT continues and IS non-temporary CONTINUES to save.

I believe that someone can be exposed to the truth, be among God's people and spend time considering what they heard (yet not end up fully embracing the truth) then harden their hearts and fall away.

Armed with a prior certainty of "OSAS", we can come to the Lexicon and choose only those definitions that fit. Not "fall down", not "cast down from a state of prosperity", but --- which definition still fits? Maybe "fail-to-participate, miss-a-share" (but not REALLY participate in salvation)?

Respectfully, is it either of our "jobs" to make verses sound convincing, or is it rather to read the verses first and then formulate doctrine?

I still see holding fast, continuing as evidence of saving faith. I'm just not seeing belief saved for certain individuals, unbelief lost again for these same individuals, then back to belief and saved again for these same individuals in Romans 11:22. I see do not continue in unbelief as they were always in unbelief, even though these Jews were the "natural branches." In Deut 30:19, we read: I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live. I see choose, not don't move away from your choice.

God's kindness and severity is on us; to those who fell severity -- to us, kindness, if we CONTINUE in His kindness else we also will be CUT OFF (don't be arrogant and think you can't be cut off!). And if they do not continue in unbelief they will be restored.

I'm just not seeing belief saved for certain individuals, unbelief lost again for these same individuals, then back to belief and saved again for these same individuals in Romans 11:22.

How are you not?

[Gadgeteer]

I don't read no guarantee in the NASV. It is GOD, not us that made the down payment; and it is GOD not us who is making the promise. The NKJV says...who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. The ESV says...who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. The NIV says...who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. Are these translations wrong?

Translations can be wrong; and/or incomplete. Read 1Cor12 in many translations --- they make it "Are all prophets? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues?" When the more complete translation renders the "me" construct "All are NOT prophets, are they? All do NOT have healing, do they? All do NOT speak in tongues, do they?"

The Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words says of "arrabon" - originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; in Eph. 1:14, particularly of their eternal inheritance. So Vine's is wrong as well?

The importance of the issue is that faith is charged to us. In 1Pet1:5, we're protected by the power of God THROUGH FAITH for salvation. Throughout Scripture "faith" is causal to salvation (1Pet1:9!!!); and it's not just BEGINNING faith but also ENDING faith (Rom1:17!).

That's why this issue is important; perseverance is nothing other than "continued faith" --- we're charged with DILIGENCE to make our salvation firm. 2Pet1:5-11.

As far as the word "believe-pisteuo" is concerned. I don't believe that "all" belief is the same. As I explained to you in James 2:19, the demons "believe-pisteuo" that there is one God, yet they are not saved. Believe-pisteuo on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved (Acts 16:31). Same Greek word yet not the exact kind of belief. Pisteuo can be used to describe mental assent belief or also include trust and reliance in Christ for salvation belief. It depends on the context. I believe that there is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation." See John 2:23-25 (where their "belief" is clearly superficial in nature); John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed on him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of mob tactics and attempted murder of the one they have professed to believe (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that “many of his disciples . . . said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).

Nevertheless, Luke8:12 says "they did not believe and be saved", so the context forces "believed" in the next verse to mean "saved".

You can fall before reaching the top on the way up.

I look forward to your thoughts, especially on the word "piptō/fall". And on Matt23:13-15 --- how does "ARE-ENTERING", become "not-really/yet-saved"?

In Luke 8:13, they did not have root because their belief was not firmly established.

Exactly what in the wording implies "belief not firmly established"? They fell from established belief because of temptation/affliction/persecution.

Luke did not say shallow roots but "no root." The soil was shallow and so was the belief. In 2 Peter 1:10, the NASB reads...be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble. Either He called and has chosen us or else He has not. We need to be certain of this. As long as we practice these things, we will never stumble (to be tripped up, lose one’s footing, or lose salvation?)

That's the issue --- can one who is CHOSEN, become not? We have the spectrum from Calvinism (which views "chosen" as sovereign action by God, therefore unfallible), to Eternal Security (which views "chosen" as the consequence of a FEW who act on God's universal call --- but then God does something to REMOVE our will and we cannot become unchosen).

The context of "don't stumble", is don't become like the guy who WAS pure but ain't-no-mo'.

New American Standard Lexicon

Ptaio

to cause one to stumble or fall to stumble to err, make a mistake, to sin to fall into misery, become wretched. So it appears that fall or stumble can be used to describe a temporary fall (Matthew 26:31-35; James 3:2) or permanent fall. Verse 8 says, For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. It doesn't say you will "maintain your salvation." Verse 9 says, For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Don't we all start out lacking these things or else why would we be told to "add" these things to our faith? 1 John 3:9-10 says that those who are born of God practice righteousness and not sin, so how could someone who is born of God permanently lack these virtues mentioned in 2 Peter 1:5-7?

Because verse 9 is the bad example --- "therefore, against the man who has FORGOTTEN purification from former sins (he was purified/saved but now he is impure/uncontrolled/immoral/unloving/unkind!) --- be diligent to NOT STUMBLE (as the man in verse 9 did!)".

The guy in verse 9 absolutely was saved; he may not be an actual named person, but he is US if we don't heed the warning. THEREFORE (against him!), be diligent to make your salvation steadfast, that you not BECOME immoral/uncontrolled/unloving/unkind/IMPURE.

Yet Luke 8:13 mentions nothing about producing fruit.

It doesn't say they didn't, either.

Only the seed which fell on the "good ground" produced a crop of various sizes and nothing is mentioned about it not producing fruit thereafter.

Focus on "cause-an-effect" --- the GROUND is neither good nor bad UNTIL it produces fruit (or not!). Those in 13 were rocky BECAUSE they fell; those in 15 were good BECAUSE they persevered. Back to Heb6:7-8 --- ONE field tilled expecting good fruit, can produce EITHER good (and be blessed) or bad (and be cursed and burned).

That's why this issue is important --- we are rebuked TO persevere and TO produce good fruit.

You can fall out of a tree before reaching the top. They fell from what they heard and emotionally responded to but did not fully embrace.

There is nothing in there about "not-fully-embraced". That's an external imposed concept.

You can be in the process of accepting the truth after hearing the truth and considering what you heard and then fall away before actually fully embracing the truth and becoming saved.

So in Matt23:13-15, did Jesus really mean "were ALMOST entering"? Or does it mean how it reads at face value, "WERE entering"?

I believe that God is pleased with you, and you're a blessing to us as well.

:-)

Again, one thing that you and I certainly agree on - In the end, those who will be saved will be those who whose faith continues to the end. Saving faith is a faith that continues and is not some superficial temporary faith that has no root and produces no fruit.

The issue is whether "faith continues", or whether "we continue our faith". One is passive, the other is active; as Jude said (can't remember which chapter) "Build yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love"...

And as you said, THAT is a serious amount of agreement! WITH that agreement, we both will pursue God with all our hearts, we will dwell in Him and rejoice and fellowship within the veil, and we'll be family forever. AMEN!

Ditto that.

Again, I see more than one type of movement. If someone climbs up a tree but falls before reaching the top, there was still movement even though they fell before reaching the top.

If the "top" is salvation and with God, then he can't fall away from God until He's at the top.
(And everyone knows it takes but a moment to unite with God, not a long time to climb the tree.)

If someone does not even attempt to climb up the tree in the first place then there is no movement. I shared my beliefs with you and I'll admit that just maybe I am mistaken about OSAS. Maybe I have a mental block of seeing it the same way that you see it because of years spent in the Roman Catholic church and hearing their version of NOSAS attached to works salvation. I spent years of riding a roller coaster of fear and bondage to insecurity before becoming a believer and finally having security in Christ. Fear and bondage to insecurity is not my idea of living the Christian life. If it is possible for a really "saved" person to really "lose their salvation" (even though I can't find those exact words in Scripture) then I believe that these would be extreme cases and it certainly would not be the majority of believers.

I've heard a lot of testimony of "deconversions". They grieve me deeply; and inspire me to argue on message boards.

:-P

You're right about "fear and bondage" (1Jn4!); but fear/reverence of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Rom11 says "do not be conceited but fear"; Acts10:34-35 says "God is not partial BUT those who fear God (revere!) and do right, He welcomes".

So not fear in a quaking (almost spelled that with a "C"!) perspiration-on-the-brow cold-terror-in-the-heart sense, but fear in a reverent awed aware-of-responsibility of keeping up OUR side of the relationship-of-love, sense.

As you know, I work at the Post Office. Technically, my job is secure as long as I don't steal mail or go Postal. I am very committed to my wife and family and freedom to ever do something that stupid, but there are some people who do it and get fired. Regardless of what the media says, this is not the majority of Postal workers who do this, but some do. This may not be the best analogy to use, but I think you get the picture.

Okay, tell me something --- we hear all the time in the news about "disgruntled postal workers".

Exactly what does a GRUNTLED one look like???

May God continue to bless you my friend and brother in Christ!

And you!

[Gadgeteer]

Excellent post, Mailman. You nailed it with precision.

We must ask, I feel, why we are willing to go to the mat on this issue some call OSAS/NOSAS.

Hi, Eyelog. As I labored to convey in the previous two posts (I'd love for you to also reply!), it cuts to the heart of what salvation IS. Is faith our choice at the beginning? How about at the end?

The biggest difference between Gadge and i on this is that he sees saved people losing their salvation in the text. I don't see that. I see unsaved people failing to attain to salvation. Otherwise, I feel Gadge and I are in great agreement on most everything else we discussed. Gadge is a great brother in the Lord.

This is actually a huge issue. To frame it as OSAS/NOSAS is a bit of a red herring. In actuality, the issue is, what does it take to get saved and when does it occur.

AND --- what does it mean to CONTINUE in salvation?

To simply ask if you can lose such a salvation begs the question of what the nature of saving faith is. IOW, if we can know the defn of saving faith, that defn itself will plainly tell us if such a salvation can be lost.

Amen!

So, if Gadge and Mailman are wanting to discuss, we could start a new thread, or just launch into the saving faith issue right here. OR NOT.

New thread might be good. Are you game? (Last time someone asked ME that, he had a rifle, and I screamed "I am NOT that kind of game!")

I know you all have defined it a couple of times, but I think a focused discussion of that, rather than the hunt for lost former saved people in Scripture, would be a good use of time.

God bless, gentlemen.

Germane in that discussion is "which direction does saving-faith flow?" (Hint --- 1Pet1:9, Heb11:6...)

[Gadgeteer]

New thread might be good. Are you game? (Last time someone asked ME that, he had a rifle, and I screamed "I am NOT that kind of game!")

Germane in that discussion is "which direction does saving-faith flow?" (Hint --- 1Pet1:9, Heb11:6...)

Maybe this thread (asking what if we're not really Christians) would work; it's about "what is salvation?".

:-)

[mailmandan]

Translations can be wrong; and/or incomplete. Read 1Cor12 in many translations --- they make it "Are all prophets? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues?" When the more complete translation renders the "me" construct "All are NOT prophets, are they? All do NOT have healing, do they? All do NOT speak in tongues, do they?"

Hi Gadgeteer,

Those many translations in 1 Corinthians 12 sound like rhetorical questions with the obvious answer that all are NOT prophets and all do NOT have healing and all do NOT speak in tongues.

The importance of the issue is that faith is charged to us. In 1Pet1:5, we're protected by the power of God THROUGH FAITH for salvation. Throughout Scripture "faith" is causal to salvation (1Pet1:9!!!); and it's not just BEGINNING faith but also ENDING faith (Rom1:17!).

So how do we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and keep ourselves saved? If God has to draw us in and enable us (John 6:44,65) to believe in the first place (even though we must choose to believe once drawn in) does He enable us to keep believing or is that all up to us? Are we just completely on our own and is continuing to have faith an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to accomplish? Who is the author and finisher of our faith? What is the point of Him confirming us/keeping us strong to the end/sustaining us so that we will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8) if it's just all up to us? What's the point of being preserved in Jesus Christ if it's just all up to us? (Jude 1:1).

That's why this issue is important; perseverance is nothing other than "continued faith" --- we're charged with DILIGENCE to make our salvation firm. 2Pet1:5-11.

So we just simply conjure up this diligence all by ourselves and the Lord plays no part in it whatsoever? This is frustrating to me because it sounds like you are saying, "for by grace we have been saved through faith," but don't get too excited because continuing to have faith is an extremely difficult burden that you will most likely fail to accomplish. You may be strong now, but just wait, you'll become weak and the Lord will just so easily allow you to become snatched from His hand. I just don't see myself as a self made, self preserved believer. Apart from the Lord I am nothing and can do nothing. Are we to make certain about His calling and choosing us in the first place or make sure that He continues to call and choose us? He seem to imply the latter. Who needs to be certain of His calling and election? Us or God? The CJB says, make your being called and chosen a certainty. God is certain, but man may not be.

Nevertheless, Luke8:12 says "they did not believe and be saved", so the context forces "believed" in the next verse to mean "saved".

Not according to everyone. The way I understand it is, no root, no fruit, no saving faith. Just like those who were said to have "believed" in John 2:23 "But Jesus Himself kept on refusing (negative imperfect) to trust himself to them." The double use of pisteuw here is shown by Acts 8:13 where Simon Magus "believed" (episteusen) and was baptized, but was unsaved. He merely believed that he wanted what Philip had and in John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed on him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of mob tactics and attempted murder of the one they have professed to believe (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that many of his disciples . . . said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).

I look forward to your thoughts, especially on the word "piptō/fall". And on Matt23:13-15 --- how does "ARE-ENTERING", become "not-really/yet-saved"?

Fall can either be permanent or temporary. For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16). In Matthew 23:13, the ESV says, For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. The NIV says, You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. The CEb says, You don't enter yourselves, and you won't allow those who want to enter to do so. The CJB says, neither entering yourselves nor allowing those who wish to enter to do so. Trying to enter, want to enter, wish to enter doesn't sound rock solid definite are going to enter to me.

Exactly what in the wording implies "belief not firmly established"? They fell from established belief because of temptation/affliction/persecution.

If their belief was established then why no root and why no fruit?

That's the issue --- can one who is CHOSEN, become not? We have the spectrum from Calvinism (which views "chosen" as sovereign action by God, therefore unfallible), to Eternal Security (which views "chosen" as the consequence of a FEW who act on God's universal call --- but then God does something to REMOVE our will and we cannot become unchosen).

God knows the future and knows who are His. In Romans 8:30, we read...and these whom He justified, He also glorified. All of them. It doesn't say and some whom He justified, He did not glorify them. It isn't about God removing our will, but God changes our hearts. Believers become new creations in Christ and are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (1 John 3:9). We have been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever (1 Peter 1:23). Does this just simply amount to nothing?

The context of "don't stumble", is don't become like the guy who WAS pure but ain't-no-mo'.
Because verse 9 is the bad example --- "therefore, against the man who has FORGOTTEN purification from former sins (he was purified/saved but now he is impure/uncontrolled/immoral/unloving/unkind!) --- be diligent to NOT STUMBLE (as the man in verse 9 did!)".

Verse 9 didn't spell out all of that. Can someone temporarily lack these things, then later not lack these things? You said that someone can backslide and become unsaved then repent and become saved again. Verse 10 said if you do these things you will never stumble. It didn't say that the man in verse 9 permanently lacked these things and lost his salvation.

The guy in verse 9 absolutely was saved; he may not be an actual named person, but he is US if we don't heed the warning. THEREFORE (against him!), be diligent to make your salvation steadfast, that you not BECOME immoral/uncontrolled/unloving/unkind/IMPURE.

Sounds like an oxymoron to me. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother (1 John 3:9,10). The man in verse 9 is born of God, but he now practices sin and no longer practices righteousness and lost his salvation. Even though His seed abides in him, he still sinned even though he is born of God.

It doesn't say they didn't, either. Focus on "cause-an-effect" --- the GROUND is neither good nor bad UNTIL it produces fruit (or not!). Those in 13 were rocky BECAUSE they fell; those in 15 were good BECAUSE they persevered. Back to Heb6:7-8 --- ONE field tilled expecting good fruit, can produce EITHER good (and be blessed) or bad (and be cursed and burned).

It needs to say they did in order to have conclusive evidence. So bad ground produces fruit in order to become good ground? Doesn't it need to be good ground FIRST before it can produce fruit? So the rocky ground was not rocky from the start but later became rocky after they fell? The good ground wasn't actually good until it preserved? That's like saying that a dead tree must produce fruit in order to become a living tree or a dead faith must produce works in order to become a living faith. "For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

That's why this issue is important --- we are rebuked TO persevere and TO produce good fruit. There is nothing in there about "not-fully-embraced". That's an external imposed concept.

If flesh and blood does not reveal saving faith to us then how can flesh and blood persevere and produce good fruit? Fully embraced amounts to a faith that has root and produces fruit.

So in Matt23:13-15, did Jesus really mean "were ALMOST entering"? Or does it mean how it reads at face value, "WERE entering"?

Would enter, trying to enter, and want to enter is not the same as are definitely going to enter.

:-) The issue is whether "faith continues", or whether "we continue our faith". One is passive, the other is active; as Jude said (can't remember which chapter) "Build yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love"... Ditto that.

Who is the author and finisher of our faith? (Hebrews 12:2). Is it all about us? Jude also said, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for/preserved in Jesus Christ. Do we do this?

If the "top" is salvation and with God, then he can't fall away from God until He's at the top. (And everyone knows it takes but a moment to unite with God, not a long time to climb the tree.)

The Jews were chosen as God's people, delievered from Egypt, God revealed Himself to them and performed miracles in front of them, so this means they ALL must have been saved at the top? Considering all of these facts, does this mean they have to be saved in order to fall away from Him? They had time to consider the things they heard, yet they chose unbelief instead of belief.

I've heard a lot of testimony of "deconversions". They grieve me deeply; and inspire me to argue on message boards.

I'm yet to witness a "deconversion." I've heard others say have, yet many of their testimonies fall into the category of, someone answered the alter call at church and seemed to really be on fire, but then later left church and are now living like the devil. They must have been saved because they seemed to be so sincere.

You're right about "fear and bondage" (1Jn4!); but fear/reverence of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Rom11 says "do not be conceited but fear"; Acts10:34-35 says "God is not partial BUT those who fear God (revere!) and do right, He welcomes". So not fear in a quaking (almost spelled that with a "C"!) perspiration-on-the-brow cold-terror-in-the-heart sense, but fear in a reverent awed aware-of-responsibility of keeping up OUR side of the relationship-of-love, sense. Okay, tell me something --- we hear all the time in the news about "disgruntled postal workers".

Fear/reverence of the Lord, absolutely! Fear/bondage to insecurity, absolutely not! Growing up in the Roman Catholic church, not only was I in fear and bondage to insecurity about my salvation, I feared God as if He was a tyrant that couldn't wait to punish me whenever I messed up. That is not a healthy fear of God!

Exactly what does a GRUNTLED one look like???

Like this. Disgruntled looks like this LOL!

[episkopos]

Fear/reverence of the Lord, absolutely! Fear/bondage to insecurity, absolutely not! Growing up in the Roman Catholic church, not only was I in fear and bondage to insecurity about my salvation, I feared God as if He was a tyrant that couldn't wait to punish me whenever I messed up. That is not a healthy fear of God!

Here is the root cause of a tendency to seek in the bible for something WE think we need. "MY" salvation? It was just a matter of time before this skewed desire to feel saved led to the popular false doctrine of a guaranteed unconditional personal salvation... a doctrine that is not taught in the bible.

Rather it is better to learn to ask the better question than to twist the meaning of the bible in order to get the answer you're looking for.

[Gadgeteer]

Hi Gadgeteer,

Those many translations in 1 Corinthians 12 sound like rhetorical questions with the obvious answer that all are NOT prophets and all do NOT have healing and all do NOT speak in tongues.

Hi, Dan. Yes, that is the intent of the "me" construct --- a negative question expecting only an answer of "no". Though in Jn6:67-70, Peter treated it as a real question and answered "We can't leave, we know You're the Messiah". That's when Jesus held up Judas clearly opposing Peter's claim of "we can't leave".

So how do we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and keep ourselves saved? If God has to draw us in and enable us (John 6:44,65) to believe in the first place (even though we must choose to believe once drawn in)

Wait --- this is important. Is Jesus saying in John6:37, 39, 44, and 65 that people are given to Jesus BEFORE belief? No! Recognize Jn17:6 Jesus plainly states that those who are given to Jesus first belonged to God --- thus those "given-to-Jesus", are given THROUGH belief.

Recognize also exactly what's happening in Jn6:37-44; they are questioning His authority. Paraphrased:
Jews: "We saw this kid grow UP, he says he came from Heaven? Who does He think He IS?!"
Jesus: "Don't grumble; those who are given to Me are authorized by God --- _I_ am authorized, that's who I am!"

So "given" = "believing" (see Jn8:42). It follows that if one ceases to believe, he ceases to be given.

does He enable us to keep believing or is that all up to us?

Calvinism asserts at least two things --- those given to Jesus are NOT believers before being given, and faith is a gift from God TO men. Thus, salvation is all God's choice. We proved that men who believe in God, are given to Jesus THROUGH that belief (see John14, "you believe in God, believe also in Me"). Scripture also proves that saving-faith is NOT gifted to men by God, it's something God receives FROM men. Heb11:6, 1Pet1:9, etcetera. What you said about John6 (and ahead about Heb12:2) is more the Calvinist understanding.

Are we just completely on our own and is continuing to have faith an extremely difficult burden that most of us will surely fail to accomplish?

It depends --- if one tries to have faith all on his own, he will fail. But if faith is our decision, accomplished through His power,we succeed. That fits Rom8:12-14, 2Tim1:12-14, 1Pet1:5, and many other verses which align with "our faith through His power".

Who is the author and finisher of our faith?

It's often critical to go back to the Greek --- Hebrews12:2 says "He is the archegos-PRINCE/LEADER, and teleiotes-CHIEF-EXAMPLE of faith. The Calvinistic view ("monergism") is that we are blank lumps of clay that God SCULPTS faith into. (And conversely, He therefore sculpts SIN into the rest! )

What is the point of Him confirming us/keeping us strong to the end/sustaining us so that we will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 1:8) if it's just all up to us?

Look up the word "blameless" --- you'll find Philip1:9-10 and 2:15, 2Pet3:14, Jude24, and others; each of which (Jude24 with 20-21) clearly asserting that His keeping us blameless is fully consequential to our continued faith.

What's the point of being preserved in Jesus Christ if it's just all up to us? (Jude 1:1).

Again, Jude20-21 says "build YOURSELVES in faith, keep YOURSELVES in His love".

So we just simply conjure up this diligence all by ourselves and the Lord plays no part in it whatsoever?

Not all all; His power works through our faith. 1Pet1:5.

This is frustrating to me because it sounds like you are saying, "for by grace we have been saved through faith," but don't get too excited because continuing to have faith is an extremely difficult burden that you will most likely fail to accomplish. You may be strong now, but just wait, you'll become weak and the Lord will just so easily allow you to become snatched from His hand.

Now you're citing John10:26-28, the Calvinistic view asserting "NO one (not even yourself!) can remove you from His hand". Not what it says --- "harpazo", is sieze/remove-forcibly. No ONEcan force YOU from His hand. In no way does that forbid voluntary disbelief.

I just don't see myself as a self made, self preserved believer. Apart from the Lord I am nothing and can do nothing. Are we to make certain about His calling and choosing us in the first place or make sure that He continues to call and choose us?

Please read Matt22:2-14 --- "Many are called, but few are chosen". Who were called? Everyone in view. Who became the chosen? Those who CAME and changed clothes.

He seem to imply the latter.

God is 100% faithful from His side; He will never leave us nor forsake us (Heb13:5), His gifts and calling are irrevocable (Rom11:29); but from OUR side we absolutely can be faithless and deny Him, which does not compromise HIS faithfulness (2Tim2:11-13), and He will deny us before God (Matt10:33). If you look these verses up to make sure I'm not erring, I think you'll see a strong consistency being woven.

Who needs to be certain of His calling and election? Us or God? The CJB says, make your being called and chosen a certainty. God is certain, but man may not be.

There is a contrast there in Peter's words --- a man can be purified but can FORGET his purification; against that man make YOUR salvation firm.

Not according to everyone. The way I understand it is, no root, no fruit, no saving faith. Just like those who were said to have "believed" in John 2:23 "But Jesus Himself kept on refusing (negative imperfect) to trust himself to them." The double use of pisteuw here is shown by Acts 8:13 where Simon Magus "believed" (episteusen) and was baptized, but was unsaved. He merely believed that he wanted what Philip had and in John 8:31,40,45-46 (where the Jews who were said to have "believed on him" turn out to be slaves to sin [v. 34], indifferent to Jesus’ word [v. 37], children of the devil [v. 44], liars [v. 55], and guilty of mob tactics and attempted murder of the one they have professed to believe (v. 59). After Jesus’ teaching we read in 6:60 that many of his disciples . . . said, "This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (vs. 64).

There are those who "never-believe"; but can even the elect be deceived? How about disciples? Please read Acts20:28-29 and tell me that the true sheep are not at risk, and even the DISCIPLES cannot be deceived.

Fall can either be permanent or temporary. For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16).

Yes, but a righteous man can become wicked, and die. Ezk18:24.

In Matthew 23:13, the ESV says, For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. The NIV says, You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. The CEb says, You don't enter yourselves, and you won't allow those who want to enter to do so. The CJB says, neither entering yourselves nor allowing those who wish to enter to do so. Trying to enter, want to enter, wish to enter doesn't sound rock solid definite are going to enter to me.

Again, it was written in Greek, we can go to the Greek and find the intent --- "eiserchomai" is rendered in present middle/passive-deponent (active!) participle.

They are entering themselves. Not "want-to-enter", not "trying-to-enter", not "wishing-to-enter"; they are entering.

If their belief was established then why no root and why no fruit?

Because belief became unbelief in the face of persecution/affliction/temptation. Recognize that perseverance is one of the fruits we are to be diligent to HAVE, in 2Pet1:5-11.

God knows the future and knows who are His. In Romans 8:30, we read...and these whom He justified, He also glorified. All of them. It doesn't say and some whom He justified, He did not glorify them. It isn't about God removing our will, but God changes our hearts. Believers become new creations in Christ and are sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God (1 John 3:9).

Very excellent citation --- now, answer a question? How do you accommodate what you just cited, with the reality that we-the-saved DO sin? 1Jn1:8 says we do; 1Cor10:2-13 says we do. There's only one answer --- "born-of-God", must be fallible.

We have been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever (1 Peter 1:23). Does this just simply amount to nothing?

It fits Heb12:7-9. I know you and I don't agree on that; but please consider that conveys a choice --- be in submission to God and live, or refuse His discipline and sin and no longer be God's sons but be illegitimate (and die).

Verse 9 didn't spell out all of that. Can someone temporarily lack these things, then later not lack these things?

The context is presenting the eisodos-gates of God's kingdom to us IF we persevere, and not if we don't.

You said that someone can backslide and become unsaved then repent and become saved again.

Did I say that? Or does Scripture?

Verse 10 said if you do these things you will never stumble. It didn't say that the man in verse 9 permanently lacked these things and lost his salvation.

He's forgotten the godly fruits and is now impure; WAS he saved? Had to be. Is he still saved? No way.

Sounds like an oxymoron to me. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother (1 John 3:9,10). The man in verse 9 is born of God, but he now practices sin and no longer practices righteousness and lost his salvation. Even though His seed abides in him, he still sinned even though he is born of God.

And there's still only one answer --- "born-of-God", being based on BELIEF (which is the opposite of "dwell in sin"), must be fallible. ALL sin separates us from God --- what matters after we sin is what we do next. Do we turn BACK to God, throwing ourselves on His mercy to forgive us? Or do we sin again? You and I agree perfectly that "seeking His forgiveness" (1Jn1:9) is saved, but "sinning again and again" is not.

It needs to say they did in order to have conclusive evidence. So bad ground produces fruit in order to become good ground?

"Ground" is neutral; in Heb6:7-8 tilled ground (expected TO produce good fruit, Isaiah5:1-4!) can produce EITHER good fruit OR thorns.

Doesn't it need to be good ground FIRST before it can produce fruit? So the rocky ground was not rocky from the start but later became rocky after they fell?

Huh-uh; the LABEL of "rocky" reflected their non-perseverance, and the LABEL of "good" followed the others' belief and perseverance.

The good ground wasn't actually good until it preserved? That's like saying that a dead tree must produce fruit in order to become a living tree or a dead faith must produce works in order to become a living faith. "For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

The soil THAT persevered was called "good", but the soil THAT fell away was called "rocky".

There's no other way to understand Hebrews6:7-8.

If flesh and blood does not reveal saving faith to us then how can flesh and blood persevere and produce good fruit? Fully embraced amounts to a faith that has root and produces fruit.

Because conscious faith exploits His power and strength. Our belief, His might.

Would enter, trying to enter, and want to enter is not the same as are definitely going to enter.

The Greek is clear. Click on the above "blueletterbible.org" link and click on "tense".

Who is the author and finisher of our faith? (Hebrews 12:2). Is it all about us?

Yes, it is all about us. That's why Paul said in 1Tim4:16 as we persevere and guard our teachings WE will SAVE OURSELVES.

Jude also said, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for/preserved in Jesus Christ. Do we do this?

We do this THROUGH building ourselves in faith, and keeping ourselves in His love. Jd20-21. Please tell us how those two verses fit any kind of "osas"?

The Jews were chosen as God's people, delivered from Egypt, God revealed Himself to them and performed miracles in front of them, so this means they ALL must have been saved at the top?

Jesus often rebuked those who saw, for refusing to believe. See Matt11:24-27. "Belief" is a conscious decision. Look at the rebuke also in Jn5:39-47 --- they were unwilling to come to Jesus, ultimately, because they WOULD not love God.

Considering all of these facts, does this mean they have to be saved in order to fall away from Him? They had time to consider the things they heard, yet they chose unbelief instead of belief.

One cannot fall from where one never was. What do you think of Galatians? They were "begun in the Spirit" (but ending in the flesh, 3:3), they "were running well and obeying the truth" (5:7); they [b]were KNOWN by God, but turned back to weak worthless things to be enslaved all over again (4:9), and became "severed/separated from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE" (5:4).

Whaddya think?

I'm yet to witness a "deconversion." I've heard others say have, yet many of their testimonies fall into the category of, someone answered the alter call at church and seemed to really be on fire, but then later left church and are now living like the devil. They must have been saved because they seemed to be so sincere.

I was staff on a major message board for years; one of our own staff deconverted. "Robin" if you wish to pray for her --- I still do.

Fear/reverence of the Lord, absolutely! Fear/bondage to insecurity, absolutely not! Growing up in the Roman Catholic church, not only was I in fear and bondage to insecurity about my salvation, I feared God as if He was a tyrant that couldn't wait to punish me whenever I messed up. That is not a healthy fear of God!

God's position is quite the OPPOSITE --- greater love has NO one than to lay down his life for his friends. That was Jesus, for US!!!

Like this. Disgruntled looks like this LOL!

Oh, whew!!! I was afraid "disgruntled" looked like:

(Disclaimer --- because this is a family board, the above smiley is firing over-ripe limes...)

[Gadgeteer]

Here is the root cause of a tendency to seek in the Bible for something WE think we need. "MY" salvation? It was just a matter of time before this skewed desire to feel saved led to the popular false doctrine of a guaranteed unconditional personal salvation... a doctrine that is not taught in the bible.

Episkopos, why do you think the need to feel "saved" is skewed? John clearly recognized that need, in 1Jn5:11-13; he who has the Son has eternal life, we may know. But the substance of salvation is critical --- it is "Christ-in-you". As Jesus said in Jn17:3, eternal life is knowing God and knowing Jesus. As such, it is a guarantee; as long as we exercise diligence to abide in Christ, judging ourselves by our fruits, we have certainty.

But "unconditional"? No, it is very conditional; it conditions on our holding fast and persevering in Christ in Heb3:6 & 14, in Col1:21-23, in 1Cor15:2, and many other places (1Tim4:16!). We do not do works to be saved nor to remain saved, but our works expose how close we walk with Jesus.

Rather it is better to learn to ask the better question than to twist the meaning of the bible in order to get the answer you're looking for.

Each of us is imperfect; to be truly objective is probably the most difficult thing. When we read Scripture, do we perceive their intent correctly? Or are our perceptions colored by prior presumptions? This is the utility of striving that "Scripture interprets Scripture". The more connections we make of identical concepts between passages, the more credible our doctrine is to others and to ourselves. It is a valid connection between Deut30:11-20 and Rom10:6-10, and Acts17:26-31. "Adokimos" (disqualified/unapproved) is a valid connection between 1Cor9:25-27 and 2Cor13:5. "Blameless" is a valid connection between Philip1:9-10 and 2:15, and Colossians1:21-30 and 2Pet3:14 and Jude20-24. "Ei-dunatos" (is possible) is a valid connection between Matt24:24 and Acts20:16.

The concept of "believing-because-of-seeing" validly connects Jn20:29, Jn10:38, and the rebuke of Matt11:24-27. The concept of "faith being our own choice" validly connects 1Pet1:9 (and 1Pet1:5!), Heb11:6, Luke21:19, and many others.

Without these connections we might understand things wrongly. James chapter 2 sometimes implies "works-salvation"; but it connects with Matt7:16-18. And James 4:10 connects to 1Pet5:6 and Matt18:4.

When someone says there are connections, and posts verses, do we look them up to see if they're right? Or are we a bit lazy? Maybe not necessarily "lazy", but invested in our own positions and think we don't need to reconsider them. I pray that none of us thinks "I have arrived and don't need to learn more".

As long as we all agree that salvation [b]is intimate fellowship between Jesus and believer/b], a true union as Gal2:20 asserts, then OSAS is not a dividing issue between us; but we strive together for a common cause, to honor and glorify Christ and to promote Him to a lost and dying world. It becomes an issue when we confront the question "where will we be TOMORROW?"

I want to belong to Jesus tomorrow; and an INFINITY of tomorrows. [b]And I want every one I talk to, to belong to Him also. Never to compel someone to believe a doctrine, but to simply teach what I have learned, to learn more, and to increase in love between us in His kingdom. This is my quest, duty, and sacred honor; may none of us ever lose sight of the goal.

There is one Savior, one winner to eternity. For us who know Him, His triumph becomes ours, forever. That was His love, His gift, as He hung dying with every last person's name on His lips. And when He came forth from the tomb, it was with one hand reaching out to take hold all who would receive Him, that they be raised too.

That is infinite, unconditional love.

:-)

[mailmandan]

Here is the root cause of a tendency to seek in the bible for something WE think we need. "MY" salvation? It was just a matter of time before this skewed desire to feel saved led to the popular false doctrine of a guaranteed unconditional personal salvation... a doctrine that is not taught in the bible.

Rather it is better to learn to ask the better question than to twist the meaning of the bible in order to get the answer you're looking for.

Hello episkopos,

I was not trying to imply that "MY" salvation means I will be saved "unconditionally" without faith. Faith is the condition (Ephesians 2:8). Ephesians 1:13-14 says, In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. So for those who believe the gospel, their salvation is not guaranteed? Let's even say they CONTINUE to believe the gospel to the end. Still not guaranteed?

What's wrong with knowing that we are saved? Do you believe the Bible teaches that we can't know for sure that we are saved? Does John 5:24 and 1 John 5:13 give us false assurance that we can know we have eternal life? Should I have absolutely no assurance of salvation? Is there something wrong with saying my salvation? When I said insecurity about my salvation I meant that I was insecure about knowing whether or not I was saved. Since I was trusting in works for salvation at that time (INSTEAD OF CHRIST ALONE), I could never know for sure if I did enough (which I could never do enough to earn my salvation), so of course, no assurance. Christ is an ALLSUFFICIENT Savior, so through faith in Him for salvation, I can have assurance. Should I feel insecure about an ALLSUFFICIENT Savior? Does Jesus need supplements?

[Eyelog]

Here is the root cause of a tendency to seek in the bible for something WE think we need. "MY" salvation? It was just a matter of time before this skewed desire to feel saved led to the popular false doctrine of a guaranteed unconditional personal salvation... a doctrine that is not taught in the bible.

Rather it is better to learn to ask the better question than to twist the meaning of the bible in order to get the answer you're looking for.

Do you believe there is such a thing as saving faith? would you call it that? If so, how would you defined it, based on Scripture?

If you wouldn't call something saving faith, but might call it the means of salvation, what is it and how does Scripture define it? ... If you don't mind answering a question or two.

[DeafPosttrib]

Gadgteer,

Please go to thread- "A Simple Question for You". Read my thread and my comment. Hope you come and make comment over there. Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!