Apples and oranges. Those in Jms2:19 were not believers when they went out --- is it possible by the wording that they were believers once, but fell from belief and went out? Yes! They COULD have been believers last year! Last week! Yesterday!!!
Originally Posted by mailmandan
The context of Luke8:13, is verse 12 --- "believe-and-BE-SAVED". In literally the same breath verse 13 says "they believed" --- but you impose "it's a DIFFERENT belief, they were NOT SAVED". How is belief in 13 different than belief two dozen or so words earlier?
Because it MOVED! Belief that is uprooted still was once rooted!!! They did not heed the warning "do-not-move", "make-sure-your-roots-are-DEEP"!
How can a belief that is described as having "no root" and produces "no fruit" be descriptive of saving belief?
"Therefore (against the man who WAS PURIFIED from former sins), be all the more diligent to make your calling and election FIRM/STEADFAST; as long as these fruits are yours ...you will not stumble/ptaio/become-wretched ...in THIS way the gates of God's kingdom will BE ...provided to you!" 2Pet1:5-11
Same context as 2:1:1-4, and 2:2:20-22. "DO NOT MOVE" --- make sure your roots are deep. Be good soil, do not be rocky. Many verses warn us "don't be like those who FELL" or "don't be wicked" (2Pet1:9-10, Heb4:11 & 6:11-12, Eph4:17-18 etcetera). Why warn the saved not to be like the wicked, if it's not possible to fall?
Is there anything in what I'm saying that's not solid, Dan?
Again, apples and oranges; on what basis is "believe-and-be-saved" clear in Luke8:12, [b]but it is "believe-WITHOUT-being-saved" in Luke8:13? [quote]
Yet the demons believe and are not saved
(James 2:19). In Acts 8:13, we see that Simon "believed," but the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief:
"the miracles and signs which were done"
You find a verse that speaks of "belief-without-salvation", and that qualifies your perception of Luke8:13; but it does not fit the context.
Later, Simon gives himself away when he offers to buy the Holy Spirit with money (vs. 18-19), and in verses 20-23, Peter denounces Simon, showing that Simon's "belief" was NOT genuine saving faith. *But Peter said to him, "Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity."
That doesn't sound like saving belief to me. Most likely, Simon had some sense that Jesus was "true," but his faith was in His power to do miracles, rather than His power to forgive sin. By becoming a so-called follower of Jesus, Simon hoped to obtain the same ability to perform wonders.
Luke8:13 "They received the word with JOY and believed" (...but were not saved).
Really? "believe" is saved in 12, but "believe" is NOT saved in 13? Why?
If it wasn't SAVING belief in 13, what did they fall FROM? Ya' can't fall down if yer' not up.
WHY did they not have root? How does 2Pet2:5-11 fit in? "Make your calling and election/salvation FIRM". Make your roots deep!
These plants have no root,
they bear no fruit,
and they do not persevere.
How does that represent "saved"?
Do you see it, Dan? The doctrines of "OSAS" seem solid to those who hold them (else they wouldn't hold them); but what you're holding, including "no-movement", is melting. Do you see?
We have no evidence that they did not produce fruit at first. They must have produced fruit, or they wouldn't have had any place to fall FROM!!!
No, it's because they had no root and produced no fruit. Faith without works is dead. Their faith was not firmly rooted or established from the start.
Do you still perceive that? How does "belief" change in a couple dozen words, literally the same breath between Lk8:12-13? OSAS views go through many gyrations trying to survive; for instance 2Jn1:7-9 presumes a subject change first half of verse 9 --- verse 8 is talking to the SAVED, verse 9a UNSAVED, verse 9b back to SAVED. There is no subject-change, Dan; there is movement.
Originally Posted by Gadget
All the reasons that I listed above.
That's true; but it's by our own decided faith. 1Pet1:9.
We choose to have a good heart but we don't prepare our hearts apart from the Lord.
No, that does not fit 2Pet1:5-11 --- make your salvation firm/steadfast.
Either our heart is honest and good and ready to receive the word and bear fruit or else it's not.
It's clear that belief did produce fruit, until they FELL to temptation and affliction and persecution. "Shallow roots" are still roots; the only difference between "shallow roots" and "deep roots", is conscious perseverance; back to 2Pet1:5-11, make your salvation steadfast, make your roots deep.
The Thirteeners had a belief that had no root. This belief was not firmly rooted or established from the start so of course it did not continue or produce fruit.
No, only those with saving-faith that makes itself FIRM (holds fast and perseveres!) continues to produce good fruit.
Only those with saving faith produce good fruit.
Not by our power, but by our faith; see 1Pet1:5, 2Tim1:12-14, etcetera.
Without the Lord, there is no saving faith or perseverance. It's not by our power that we are saved or remain saved.
I think now we've very much proven "movement". Can you deny it?
I see perseverance as a consequence of true salvation. "Have become" partakers of Christ if we continue/consequence. "Will become" or "will remain" partakers of Christ if we continue/cause of it.
Again, they had to have been producing fruit (up until they FELL), or they wouldn't have had anywhere to fall FROM.
Luke 8:13 conveys temporary belief with no root and no fruit. That's why I deny that this belief resulted in salvation.
They fell, Dan; the only place they fell from is "saved". If they were "never really saved", then they did not fall, they remained fallen/unsaved.
You have --- God is pleased with you, and you're a blessing to us. That's a fact.
Originally Posted by Gadget
Amen! Well said. I pray also that I've embodied respect and love to all with whom I've talked with. I'm with you, same goal --- to serve Jesus and promote the Gospel, to encourage each other in faith and in Christ.
And THAT is a serious amount of agreement! WITH that agreement, we both will pursue God with all our hearts, we will dwell in Him and rejoice and fellowship within the veil, and we'll be family forever.
One thing that you and I certainly agree on - In the end, those who will be saved will be those who whose faith continues to the end. Saving faith is a faith that continues and is not some superficial temporary faith that has no root and produces no fruit.
I don't think so. I'm looking forward excitedly to your response to this post; can we still deny "movement"?
We have probably run this discussion into the ground...
but still a great discussion!
God bless you!