OSAS Question

[poorinspirit]

I'd say there are many dozens of verses that stand against OSAS!“… which of you, intending to build a tower, does not sit down first and count the cost, whether he has enough to finish it” (Luke 14:27)IMHO ...FINISHING (the tower) means …

If you are going to use Luke 14:27 to signify the obtaining of our salvation, then you have to apply Luke 14:26 where the call of discipleship also incides hating your mother, father, and even your wife. Done that yet? No? The hard sayings of Jesus has to be done in context for which it is given.Look at Luke 14:15-25 where someone seating at the table made some remark about those being blessed that eat bread in the kingdom of God. Then Jesus went into a parable about a man having prepared a great supper, and yet those bidden were excusing themselves from attending for the cares of this life and for their loved ones. Then Jesus expounded on that parable when addressing the multitude about the cost of discipleship: which has nothing to do about how we live as His disciple on earth, but about being His disciple in the willingness to leave this earth to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. That is the cost Jesus was referring to: forsaking all that this life has to offer and their loved ones when the Bridegroom has bidden them to come to attend the Marriage Supper.Imagine all the sacrifices and all the hard labours in getting where he is today in serving the Lord in taking care of the family, business, and his service to Him in the church as well as the community, but when He appears, guess what? "Oh, but Lord, I have made prior commitments to do these things. It's like a promise. I have to do this. Can you please wait: just hover there in the sky for maybe a whole year or two before I feel satisfied that I have completed my commitments to you and to them?" Guess what is going to happen? That is the cost of being a disciple. You have to be free in Christ in serving Him to be free to go when the Bridegroom comes. No one can make plans for tomorrow which is considered as evil boasting: James 4:14-17 So where does commitments to Christ and to do good comes in?Now do consider that this has nothing to do with salvation, but what He stated plainly on what this is about: being His disciple.

ALLOWING the Holy Spirit to sanctify you

Incidentally, we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the love of the truth at our salvation. There is no allowing the Holy Spirit anything. 1 Thessalonians 4:3-4 is about maintaining that sanctification and honour by abstaining from fornication which is the will of God to do. John 17:17-20 in context was Jesus's prayer for His disciples to be saved on that day of Pentecost and those that will believe on Him afterwards. So believers have been sanctified.

OVERCOMING as in Revelation 2-3

1 John 5:Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.That's OSAS talking. That means even though the prodigal son can be foolish enough give up his inheritance as a vessel unto honour in His House to attend the Marriage Supper for wild living, he is still son. He will regret it eternally, as there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, but God will wipe the tears from his eyes to get past that loss in coming out of the great tribulation, because he is still son. What follows next is how we know we love the children of God expounding on the truth of verse 1 in being our brother's keeper. 1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.What are those commandments that are not grevous? It's in the same book of 1 John as mentioned previously.1 John 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.They mirror these two greatest commandments below.Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.Thus we look to the Son of God by faith to help us to stay abiding in Him by continuing in His words just as we exhort other believers to do the same so that the Lord will have them ready to go to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.1 John 45:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

[GaryMac]

I hear what you are saying. However, what you suggest is a course of action (or feeling) that needs to be examined under the light of reality. Human beings, as sinners, have the capacity to self-deceive. Since it is so easy to mistake a "feeling" for what is actually real, we need to be very careful with the action you suggest here.

Humans as sinners do have that capacity for deception where laws for tradition dictate to God, but those who are of and has His same mind, the mind of Christ, are not sinners and cannot be deceived and freed from the laws that binds God to their way of thinking. And it isnt a feeling at all, and what is real is that it is a state of ones being to think in terms God thinks in which is Christ in you.

[BroRog]

Humans as sinners do have that capacity for deception where laws for tradition dictate to God, but those who are of and has His same mind, the mind of Christ, are not sinners and cannot be deceived and freed from the laws that binds God to their way of thinking. And it isnt a feeling at all, and what is real is that it is a state of ones being to think in terms God thinks in which is Christ in you.

I don't see this taught anywhere in the New Testament. I the only ones who have the mind of Christ, as I understand it, are the Apostles.

Even so, your point is strictly hypothetical. You contend that it's a "state of one's being", which may or may not be true, but one can not assume it to be true without proof. That's why the Apostles speak about the testing of our faith and the value in passing the test.

[Gadgeteer]

That response was towards John 6:38-40, and although you had addressed the underlined in verse 39, still, I had quoted verse 40.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The concept of "believe-because-of-seeing" is well established. It is what Jesus told Thomas in Jn20:29; it is the clear assertion of John10:38, and it is the basis of the rebuke of Matt11:21-24. Thus, belief is causal in places like Jn6:40. That fits what I said about Jn17:6 perfectly --- those WHO believe/love the Father, are given to Jesus. "Given" therefore denotes "belief"; he who ceases to believe, ceases to be "given". (And Jesus has not "lost" him.)

Let's discern about the use of that phrase, "you shall save yourselves". Is Jesus the Saviour or are you? Is He unable to keep us or are we finishing by the flesh what was begun in the Spirit? I do not see how you can avoid those issues.

Now you're quoting Gal3:3, and validly --- one CAN finish in the flesh what was begun in the Spirit; becoming "severed-from-Christ and fallen-from-grace" (Gal5:4).

Then how do I address the saving part of 1 Timothy 4:16?

Romans 5:9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

It's the same as in Ezk18:31, "make for yourself a new heart and a new spirit". There is only One who can make hearts and spirits new, only one Savior; yet, the conspicuous wording conveys voluntary participation.

Do read Hebrews 12th chapter about how God chasten and will scourge every child He receives. If a believer wants to be saved from that wrath, then he should look to the author and finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight and sin to run that race.

Four things --- this race can become forfeit, because we must "lay aside the sin which can so easily entangle us". See 1Cor9:25-27, "race so as to WIN the immortal crown".

Second, as we discussed "author" is better translated "leader", and "finisher" is better translated "chief-example".

Third, we (the saved!) have BECOME subject to His discipline (past tense!), but if we ARE NOW (present tense!) no longer subject, then we are not His sons but illegitimate. Verse 9 is nothing other than a choice to continue in eternal life (continue to be "born-again").

Fourth, the entire letter of Hebrews* very clearly teaches "forfeitable salvation"; chapter 12 warns about falling in verse 15, and that "we shall not escape who turn away from God" in verse 25.

Now before we get too far into it: here is a faithful saying about Jesus:

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Recognize the two positions here --- "died/live/reign/SAVED", and set opposed to this is "denying/faithless/NOT-reign/PERISH". He remains faithful, even if we become faithless and perish.

One would say: "Aha! One has to obtain our salvation": but discerning readers would see that it is the obtaining of the eternal glory that comes with our salvation which is in Christ Jesus.

What glory is that? The glory of being that vessel unto honour in His House as mentioned in 2 Timothy 2:19-21 as opposing to be that vessel unto dishonour in His House for not departing from iniquity. It's in the same chapter.

Then you see that if one does not believe anymore, Jesus cannot deny Himself. This ties in with 2 Timothy 2:18 in how those that err from the truth and had their faith overthrown, whethor it be the lies of the evolution theory is why they do not believe any more or catholicism is why they reject all of christianity, it doesn't matter, because His promise is that those that believe even in His name, are the sons of God, in having been bought with a price and sealed as His. John 1:12-13

Not if they cease to believe! Romans11:18-23 very plainly says that those who disbelieve will be cut off; they will be restored IF they do not continue in unbelief.

Cut off from the vine, "Poor" --- cut off from Jesus.

Of course, His disciples are to reach out to those that have gone astray and hope God is peradventuring to recover them from the snare of the devil. See 2 Timothy 2:24-26 Do note the word "recover".

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Do you propose that one who is "captive-to-the-devil", and "unrepentant", is nevertheless STILL SAVED?

As per your other reference: and thus tying in with the conclusion:

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

You will never find a verse that plainly states that one loses their salvation, and so verse 8 states the warning of losing our full reward which is how I see it to be that vessel unto honour in His House at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. I mean, let's face it: you are either saved or you are not, so how can it be that we can have some reward, but not the full reward? Even the prodigal son upon his return was given a robe and a ring and a party: but there is still that loss when he gave up his inheritance for wild living. The royal son was assured by the father that all that he has was his, signifying that it was not so with the prodigal son.

There is only one inheritance --- eternal life! And you said it --- we are EITHER saved, or NOT. We presume that by returning the Prodigal's pecuniary inheritance was restored.

If you want the connection to the Marriage Supper, then read about the church at Thyatira about those not repenting from fornication in how they will be cast into the bed of the great tribulation unless they repent.

So God is going to judge His House first and those not abiding in Him will not be saved from His wrath as the Father will scourge every child He receives.

Oh come on --- the WRATH (orge) in Rom2:6-8 is Hell. That's forever. Not "scourging-sinful-SAVED" --- there is no such thing as "sinful-saved"!!!!!

Again, read Hebrews 12 th chapter about how we have received the kingdom of God which cannot be removed, but how we are abiding in Him and not abiding in Him determines how we are received: great in the kingdom of heaven or as the least. Once that door is shut, that first inheritance can never be had ever again and thus there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will not be a small loss or something as if it is like... don't worry... we shall all be there one way or another... when in fact, those not abiding in Him will wished that they had, considering the loss of their eternal rewards.

Golly; those who do not abide are still gonna waltz through the gates of God's eternal kingdom. That's the same First Lie as Eve heard in the Garden:
"You won't really die."
Jesus said "Unless you REPENT, you will perish." Lk13:3.

Actually, the verse states walks in darkness. They do not belong to darkness. It is about maintaining that fellowship: not salvation.

Wow --- "darkened-salvation". How do I convince you 1Jn3:5-10 is absolute? He who practices sin DOES NOT KNOW GOD, and belongs to the devil!

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So you quote the absolute that "darkness-walkers are deceived and do not have the truth", but you just sweep all that away???

Look at those that practice fornication.

1 Corinthians 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of a harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

So no believer belongs to darkness. We belong to God. And because we do, we will answer to Him for what we have done.

Right. Even if we WALK in darkness we still belong to the LIGHT and are still SAVED. Gnosticism/Antinomiansm, not Christianity, "Poorinspirit".

Paul did not say that these sinning believers were never saved. God did not addressed the church at Thyatira as if they were never His. The reality is God will judge His House. The fact that these warnings given below are to believers, shows that He will.

Please re-read Romans2 and tell us where judged sinners go.

Rm2:4) Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
5) But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6) who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7) to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8) but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

That's pretty final; those who pursue sin and don't obey truth will NOT be with God forever. Period.

Ephesians 5:1Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

But not in your doctrine, right?

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: 6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

But some SAVED still walk in them, right?

Hebrew 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Are we making progress here? Do you begin to see the solidarity of Scripture? The truly saved belong to God, and do not walk in darkness; how one walks reveals whether his heart belongs to the Light (Jesus), or to the darkness (sin and the devil).


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* Do a study on Hebrews --- focus on 2:1-3, 3:6 and 3:14 (connect this with 1Cor15:2 and Col1:21-23); 3:12-13. 4:1 and 4:11; 6:4-6 (note they WERE saved, but their willful sin makes it impossible/unable to restore them to repentance); 6:11-12. 10:26-29. 10:35 (connect this with Heb6:19 and Heb10:19, so 10:35 is saying "don't throw away JESUS"). 12:7-9 (we can cease to be born-again!!!!!). 12:15 and 25. 13:9. An entire letter of "fallible salvation"; James can be similarly read, as can Galatians, and 2Peter. 2Peter is very clear --- 1:5-11, 2:20-22 (the FALSE tempt the TRULY-ESCAPED back INTO defilements and unsalvation, verse 18!). 3:14 and 17...

[Gadgeteer]

Thanks for keeping it short..
My concern is for us today, only a select few had the spirit in the OT, and it could be removed for them.
For US who are in this time, ALL believers are given the spirit and it cannot be removed. ( This started from Pentecost )

Yes, it can --- for those who GRIEVE the Spirit (Eph4:30), those who INSULT the Spirit (Heb10:29), and those who RESIST the Spirit (Acts7:51) --- the Spirit will not remain.

Slaves have no free will..we have been bought with a price.

Humans have a choice who to be enslaved TO. Either to sin, or to God through Christ. Rom6:17, 22.

So yes, you have a master and you are not your own.
It was in the fine print at salvation, that you would be a slave of God.

No, we "became obedient from the heart and slaves of righteousness ...enslaved to God". Rom6:17, 18, 22!

God owns you, you are his to flog or bless.. We choose the whip or Growth..

Really. What is it that entitles us to FLOGGING, but not to CONDEMNATION? Exactly what do we do to enter such a position?

I prefer the growth.. not the whip.,,, so there is some free will

More than you are contending; see Rom6:17-22, 10:9-10, etcetera.

See Acts10:34-35. Jn7:17!

[Gadgeteer]

We are saved thru Christs work, not ours..

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast.

It would be arrogance to think we build our own salvation, for that would make us Christ.

No, he's right; it's arrogance/conceit (in Paul's words!) to think we can NOT be deceived to unbelief and being cut off from Jesus! Rom11:18-23!

If "faith" is not from ourselves, please explain how we "became obedient from the heart" (Rom6:17), how "we receive as the outcome of OUR FAITH salvation" (1Pet1:9), how God responds to faith in Rm3:16 and Heb11:6 (and Acts10:34-35)?

Do you know that the Greek conspicuously teaches "the righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith", in Rom1:17?

[Gadgeteer]

Well, brother, I guess we'll just have to accept the fact that I know that we can "empty ourselves of the Holy Spirit" based on scriptures, and you don't think we can.

Scripture completely supports you.

I know that nobody else can take me from God. I know that God will not forsake me of His own volition. Those are the promises that we have been given.

Amen.

We were never promised that we will not choose sin over God. We were never promised that we can never forsake God. God tells us that it would be a very bad thing to do. People have done it.

I know that, if I were to attempt to do so, the chastisement would be very painful and I would suffer greatly until the time comes that God turns me over to my lusts. This I understand as well.

We can allow our own lusts to deceive us to spiritual death --- James1:14-16. We can be deceived by sin to falling away from God, Heb3:12-13. We can be deceived away from Christ by men, Col2:8, 2Pet3:17, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, and dozens of others. We can be deceived away from Christ by bad-angels, 1Tim4:1, and 2Cor11:3.

Jesus has told us repeatedly that we will not see eternal life with Him if we do. That is plain enough for me.

It amazes me how people can read passages like 2Tim2:11-13 and not realize he's contrasting SAVED, with UNSAVED.

If we died and if we endure, THEN we shall reign with Jesus, forever.
BUT if we are faithless and deny Him, He will deny us before God and we'll perish!

I love how Paul words it in 2Tim1:12-14:

I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
Retain the standard of sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

Zero "works-salvation", 100% of "guard eternal life by the Spirit's power".

[Gadgeteer]

If they rebel they can grieve or quench the spirit, for believers today we are SEALED in the spirit..
It will Never leave us.

The only way that's possible is if we can be sinfully saved. Antinomianism. Then we'd have to mark out passages like Heb10:26-29, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:5-10, and so on.

We are sealed and the spirit is given as evidence of the sealing.

After belief (Eph1:13); and not without.

It is arrogance of man that thinks something he can do... will unseal what God hath sealed.

Sigh. Scratch out also Rom11:18-23.

Are we more mighty than the creator that he should beckon to our will and our sins?

Please read this carefully --- God is LOVE (1Jn4:16), and love cannot demand its own way (1Cor13:5).

Love cannot dictate who continues to love back. Not with Human relationships, and not with God.

God is in control NOT MAN...God stated you are MINE.. therefore we are his.. no matter what we do, think, or sin.
And because we are his, he has the RIGHT to strike us in discipline when we stray.

But if we CEASE submitting to His discipline, then we are NOT sons (not any more!) but illegitimate.

"SHALL we not BE in submission to Him, AND LIVE???" Heb12:9

[Colight]

The only way that's possible is if we can be sinfully saved. Antinomianism. Then we'd have to mark out passages like Heb10:26-29, 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-21, 1Jn3:5-10, and so on.

AS I said before one can post scripture all day, even Satan can quote scripture.
I can have a bible bot fling out scriptures if that is what I am looking for, but I am not interested in a KJV Bible pages fling out.
We are TOLD

Titus 3
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

I want doctrine from you..what is your solution to keep salvation.
Is it a lack of sin that saves us or Christ?
If Christ saves us then how does striving against sin perfect us, when striving against sin did not save us?
Your doctrine is one of legalism.
We can not strive to obey the law against sin and gain or keep salvation from that.
That is the whole point of Galatians.

Gal 3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

But if we CEASE submitting to His discipline, then we are NOT sons (not any more!) but illegitimate.

You understand God is a living God and not some Idol?
It is IMPOSSIBLE to cease being under his whip.
Exactly how does one get away from a LIVING GOD who has a Claim of owner ship upon them?
I find the mere thought of that foolishness, but I am sure you have a escape clause.. so lets hear it.
You need to
1) first nullify CHRISTS CLAIM of ownership.

John 10:28-29 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me( Christ OWNS us ), is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

No one, means we can not even snatch our self out of his hand .
We have both the Hand of Christ and the father holding us..... but I am sure you have some escape verses to Pluck the saved out of the hand of Christ... and prove Christ a liar and faith to be unsound

i bet there is also some work to remain in the hands.
Grasping on in fear for those hands are slippery not solid.

2) You need to UNSEAL the spirit which we told to ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

eph 4:30
.30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption


So when Gods stated we are SEALED until that day.. that is it.

So what is your escape clause to unseal what God has sealed and prove God a liar,
what is the labor that we must do to remain sealed..
since faith alone is not able to cut it.

It amazes me how people can read passages like 2Tim2:11-13 and not realize he's contrasting SAVED, with UNSAVED.

If we died and if we endure, THEN we shall reign with Jesus, forever.
BUT if we are faithless and deny Him, He will deny us before God and we'll perish!

And you are adding to scripture.
Which to me makes me feel dirty even responding to you.
This is why for the most part I avoid your posts.
Paul is using 'we' he is writing to a believer named Timothy.
2 tim1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord

The we is both believers.... the letter is from one believer to another.
Therefore 'we' does not represent the unsaved, for the author Paul includes himself in 'we'!

2 tim 2 11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

There is nothing there about perishing..
NOTHING!!!!!!
There IS about God remaining faithful.. faithful to us..

We died with him thru the baptism of the spirit..

Romans 6
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


So We SHALL Live with him and NOT PERISH..

For we have God in us (We are the body of Christ and the spirit dwells in us ) and God remains faithful to him self ( which is Christ and the spirit ).

1 cor 1
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1 cor 6
9 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

What we are denied is reward of reigning with him..
Those who deny will cool their heels while others who suffered and strove on will get that reward.
We are not to deny him what is do..if we do there is lack of reward.

[Boo]

That is making man God.
That is making man in control of him self.

We are not our OWN to control such things, we being to Christ.

God states he will never leave us. PERIOD!

Even if we run fast away, he is still there with us.

God being God he can do that.

Yeah a little carnality.
Paul of the scripture states he was the CHIEF of all sinners.. no matter what we do.. we will never out do Paul.

1 Timothy 1
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Yet Israel in their falling away are STILL GODS PEOPLE!
God made promises to them that WILL be kept.. they are kept because God promised them.. Not because Israel earned them..

The same it is with believers... we are KEPT because of what Christ has promised. Not because of any thing we do or act.
It is about CHRIST.. not us.
IT is perhaps arrogance on our part to think we can thwart Gods perfect plan with a little carnality ( of one leans that way ) or Self righteousness ( if one leans the other way )..

God stated he will never leave us.. therefore that is the way it is and will always be. What man does is irrelevant.

Therefore those "other scriptures" are being brought up in a incorrect context.
For the doctrine of Gods faithfulness is with out question secure.
When man says it is not, then man is in error.

It is amazing, isn't it?

You say I am in error. I say you are.

We are still brothers.

May God bless your day.

[Gadgeteer]

AS I said before one can post scripture all day, even satan can quote scripture.
I can have a bible bot fling out scriptures if that is what I am looking for, but I am not interested in a KJV Bible pages fling out.

What does that mean? Two people can perceive different meanings from the same verses, but cannot come to agreement --- because Scripture can be bent/interpreted into anything one wants? Scripture does not assert absolutes?

"All Scripture is" (not) "God-breathed, and suitable for reproof and correction, for training and equipping us for every good work" (2Tim3:15)?

We are TOLD

Titus 3
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

I want doctrine from you..what is your solution to keep salvation.

It is as Paul said in 1Tim4:16; abide in the teaching. It is as Jude said in 20-21, build oneself in faith and keep oneself in the love of God. It is as John said in 1:2:26-28, guarding against deceivers abide in Christ so that we not shrink-in-shame from sin when He returns. It is as Peter said in 2:3:14-17, be diligent to be found blameless, guarding against deceivers lest we be carried away by bad doctrine.

I see a pattern --- don't you?

Is it a lack of sin that saves us or Christ?
If Christ saves us then how does striving against sin perfect us, when striving against sin did not save us?

There are only two "real-estates" in the Universe --- in Christ (believing), or in sin (unbelieving); as Hebrews3 says we are to guard ourselves lest we be deceived by sin to an unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Fits the pattern I just mentioned, doesn't it?

Your doctrine is one of legalism.

Straw-man; focus on only this post, and show me where I teach "works-salvation", "legalism", or "saved-by-sinlessness". You cannot deny the Scriptural reality that warns "abide-in-Christ" --- the only thing you can say is "legalism", which has nothing to do with anyone's post.

We can not strive to obey the law against sin and gain or keep salvation from that.

Agreed.

That is the whole point of Galatians.

Hah hah hah! The whole point of Galatians is FALLING-FROM-SALVATION because of turning away from God!

3:1-3 --- having BEGUN in the Spirit, are you ending in the flesh?
4:9 --- having been KNOWN by God, why do you turn BACK to weak/worthless things to be enslaved again?
5:7 --- you WERE running well and obeying the truth
5:4 --- you are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN from grace!

How does "fallen-from-grace" become "not-fallen-from-grace"?

Gal 3
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Oooooh, wait --- that's movement --- from "KNOWN by God" (saved!) to "slaves-to-sin" (unsaved!).

But if we CEASE submitting to His discipline (Heb12:7-9), then we are NOT sons (not any more!) but illegitimate.

You understand God is a living God and not some Idol?
It is IMPOSSIBLE to cease being under his whip.

How does "SHALL we not rather BE subject to the Father AND LIVE?" --- become "we cannot cease submitting to Him"?

Exactly how does one get away from a LIVING GOD who has a Claim of ownership upon them?

See above quotes; we are KNOWN by God because of our belief; if we cease to believe, then we become unknown.

I find the mere thought of that foolishness, but I am sure you have a escape clause.. so let's hear it.

I've been giving you Paul's words, and Peter's, and John's; I can give you James' (don't be carried away by your own lusts and spiritually die, Jms1:14-16) and dozens of other verses in agreement.

The pattern is getting very, very strong.

You need to
1) first nullify CHRISTS CLAIM of ownership.

Just mark-out all these verses we've been discussing. You have to, 'cause they don't fit "unfallible salvation".

John 10:28-29 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me( Christ OWNS us ), is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one.”

"Snatch" --- harpazo, sieze/remove-forcibly. Nothing against "deceived to unbelief and removing one's own self".

No one, means we can not even snatch our self out of his hand .

And you are adding to scripture.
Which to me makes me feel dirty even responding to you.
This is why for the most part I avoid your posts.

Your own words; I do not feel dirty responding to you, I'll be forever patient in correcting you with solid Scripture. Praying that in time, you'll stop resisting indisputable principles.

We have both the Hand of Christ and the Father holding us..... but I am sure you have some escape verses to Pluck the saved out of the hand of Christ... and prove Christ a liar and faith to be unsound

Sigh.

i bet there is also some work to remain in the hands.
Grasping on in fear for those hands are slippery not solid.

Paul says "do not be conceited but FEAR" --- it is arrogant to think we can NOT be cut off for unbelief. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, to you God's kindness, if you CONTINUE in His kindness else YOU ALSO will be cut off! Rom11:18-23.

The "pattern" is so deep as to be indisputable; you'd have to mark out the entire Bible to avoid it.

2) You need to UNSEAL the spirit which we told to ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

That's right; just as the guy in Heb10:29 did. That guy is US, if we do not heed the warning of Heb10:26.

eph 4:30
.30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption


So when God stated we are SEALED until that day.. that is it.

Very good --- un-TO, not un-TIL. Oh wait, you changed it in your understanding! Seals were made to be broken, "Colight"; the seal is AFTER belief (Eph1:13), if belief ends then so too does the seal.

So what is your escape clause to unseal what God has sealed and prove God a liar,

Doesn't prove God is a liar; just proves your interpretation conflicts Scripture.

what is the labor that we must do to remain sealed..
since faith alone is not able to cut it.

It is faith --- "building yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in the love of God". Jude20-21.

It amazes me how people can read passages like 2Tim2:11-13 and not realize he's contrasting SAVED, with UNSAVED.

If we died and if we endure, THEN we shall reign with Jesus, forever.
BUT if we are faithless and deny Him, He will deny us before God and we'll perish!

And you are adding to scripture.
Which to me makes me feel dirty even responding to you.
This is why for the most part I avoid your posts.
Paul is using 'we' he is writing to a believer named Timothy.
2 tim1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord

Do you disagree with Paul's directive to Timothy in 2:1:12-14, RETAIN the standard of sound words (abide in the teaching!), GUARD, by the Spirit who indwells us the treasure God entrusts to us (be diligent to abide in the treasure-of-eternal-life)?

Was Paul wrong?

The we is both believers.... the letter is from one believer to another.
Therefore 'we' does not represent the unsaved, for the author Paul includes himself in 'we'!

2 tim 2 11-13
11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

There is nothing there about perishing..
NOTHING!!!!!!

Ahhhh, so we can be FAITHLESSLY-SAVED. Do you really believe that?

There IS about God remaining faithful.. faithful to us..

We died with him thru the baptism of the spirit..

IF we died THEN we shall live; but if we are alive to sin and dead to God --- we can be "faithlessly-saved"? I really doubt you believe that.

Romans 6
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


So We SHALL Live with him and NOT PERISH.

Note "buried/baptized" is interchangeable with "died" --- IF we have died/been-buried/been-immersed, THEN we shall live. But if we're deceived by sin to an unbelieving heart to falling-away-from-God, are we still alive? (Heb3:12-13)

The next verse (Heb3:14) tells us we're partners of Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end.

Should we mark that out too? No offense meant; the pattern is so woven through Scripture, we'd have to mark out most to continue with "OSAS".

For we have God in us (We are the body of Christ and the spirit dwells in us ) and God remains faithful to Himself ( which is Christ and the spirit ).

1 cor 1
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1 cor 6
9 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

And God will NEVER leave us nor forsake us (Heb13:5); but there's nothing about US leaving HIM.

What we are denied is reward of reigning with him..

Wowwww --- so we can "not-reign-with-Him but still be SAVED". Is there a dark corner of Heaven for the saved-who-live-in-sin?

"Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Never! How shall we who have DIED to sin, still live IN it?" Rm6:1

"He who practices sin is a slave to sin; so whom the Son sets free is free indeed." Jn8:34-36

Those who deny will cool their heels while others who suffered and strove on will get that reward.

But not to worry, there's still a dark corner of Heaven for them. Right?

(Never knew there was a "dark-corner" in Heaven!!!)

We are not to deny him what is do..if we do there is lack of reward.

If we deny Him --- per Matt10:33 Jesus will deny us before the Father. Is that consistent with "still-be-saved"?

I don't see how it can be. Can you 'splain it, Lucy?

[BroRog]

Yes, it can --- for those who GRIEVE the Spirit (Eph4:30), those who INSULT the Spirit (Heb10:29), and those who RESIST the Spirit (Acts7:51) --- the Spirit will not remain.

What? Where did you get that idea?

[Colight]

See above quotes; we are KNOWN by God because of our belief; if we cease to believe, then we become unknown.

Your god may have selective memory...
THE LIVING GOD I have faith in does not.
He will remember me even if I should have head damage and forget him.

Let those with Alzheimer's BURN IN HELL FIRE!!! right?

They can forgot God and can not remain true..
What about those with head trauma where their brain goes KaPUT and they go crazy..

guess it is loss of salvation for them too..

BURN THEM for ever !!!

Praise the Lord and pass the ketchup...

And God will NEVER leave us nor forsake us (Heb13:5); but there's nothing about US leaving HIM.

He will not leave us, even if we leave him.. Period.
My God is living, your god seems to be just a set of rules bent on DAMMING any thing that does not measure up.

The God of the Bible has grace and Christ built the foundation that withstands the fallen believer as much as it withstands the mature believers.

Us abiding... for salvation is not grace... that is works.
That is not salvation.

You are constantly confusing passages on growth with salvation.

This is one reason I see no need to continue with you.. you are full of untruth..

You stated

5:4 --- you are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN from grace!

Paul is warning them that salvation is not thru justification to the law.
In which some in that church was turning to the law as a means of salvation.
It is not about Loss of salvation.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

I can not deal with the consistent untruths in your doctrine .
Therefore I will part way with you.

[Gadgeteer]

Can't and won't are two different things. When Jesus says that he will not lose any that the Father has given him, his point centers on a promise the Father makes to the son.

But if "given" is the same as "believing", those who cease to believe cease to be given. One who comes to disbelief and therefore becomes unsaved has not been lost by the Son.

So, for instance, if the Father promises to give Joe from Pittsburgh to his the son, then Joe from Pittsburgh, won't fall away. Jesus will not lose any that the Father has given him.

No, think of it this way:

"Those You have given to Me --- they were believing in You, and you gave them through their belief to Me."

It does not prohibit the idea that if one ceases to believe, he ceases to be "given".

Whether or not the Father has given me or you to the Son is not immediately apparent. We find out whether or not the Father has given us to the Son through trials of faith. Only after our faith remains after trial, do we know that the Father has given us to the Son.

Ahhh, this parallels "Reformed Theology". Tell me --- can you know that you're saved and belong to Jesus forever? You can only answer "NO".

Only perseverance until death proves one is "truly-elected", rather than "cruelly-rejected" in Reformed Theology.

To illustrate --- what is the difference between the Thirteeners (Luke8:13), and the Fifteeners (Luke8:15)? Both began being "joyful believers"; but you would say the Fifteeners proved their sovereign election by perseverance, while the Thirteeners only THOUGHT they were wanted by God --- He didn't really want them, He let them be JOYFUL thinking they belonged to Him but He cruelly turned His back on them and never enrolled them in eternity (thus they fell because of their sovereign unelection).

Thus the need for the warnings.

Warnings are useless if all is decided by God; are you going to warn the elect that they're saved? Or the unelect that they're NOT? Warnings cannot change anything under "sovereign predestined-salvation".

So warnings are silly and useless.

The Apostles don't know and neither do we who among us is a person the Father has given to his son until we go through trial.

Ahhhh, so those who WANT to be loved by God (but He doesn't want them!) are cruelly allowed to THINK they're saved and belong to God; but "they prove their UNELECTION by falling away some time before death". And since both the Thirteeners and the Fifteeners at some point joyfully believe, no one can truly know he or she is "truly-elected", or just "cruelly-rejected".

"I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may KNOW you have eternal life." 1Jn5:13

That we may know; not that "we can HOPE and SWEAT and WORRY that we'll prove are REAL election by perseverance until death".

The testing of our faith is more precious than gold, Peter says. Why? Passing the test gives us confidence that we are one of his.

Did the Thirteeners think they were one of His? Yes. But they were wrong, weren't they? They PROVED that God didn't really want them or love them by FALLING AWAY. And no one can know he's a Thirteener (deluded into thinking Jesus loved him and died for him), or a Fifteener (the truly elect who WILL persevere because of God's sovereign choice), until his very last breath --- can he?

"God is love." 1Jn4:16.

What is God to the majority of people whom He does not want, does not love, and did not sovereignly elect? He's not love to most (under Reformed Theology), is He?

"For God so loved

(some of) the world, that WHOSOEVER (all those He ordained and gave new hearts to) believes (but He wants them to disbelieve for much of their lives, for some reason) should not perish (well of course not, those He ordained not to perish won't!) but have eternal life (as He has decided; but most He's ordained to be sinful, to be hated, and to perish)."
John3:16 w/Reformed Understanding

How is that credible to anyone?

[Gadgeteer]

We know exactly if we are His son or not, there is no guess work in knowing. Either you are one with the Father and like Him or you are not, a son is like his Father.

True; we can know --- 1Jn5:11-13.

And, we can be known by others by our fruit. No good tree produces bad fruit, no bad tree produces good. Matt7:16-20.