OSAS Question

[Old man]

There are some who would argue that the disciples were not "saved" until after Jesus died and resurrected. So in his case he was not saved yet and neither were the other disciples. However it does seem to me that Jesus considered them to already be "heaven bound" He told them not to rejoice that the demons were subject to them but that their names were written in heaven. I'm not well studied up on this particular issue as far as when the disciples were actually "saved" but getting back to Judas ... before his betrayal of Jesus even as they were still out ministering it is recorded that he was a thief and would steal money from their money box (embezzlement). It seem to me that he never had a real conversion in the first place so he could not have lost what he didn't have.

[jeffweeder]

There are some who would argue that the disciples were not "saved" until after Jesus died and resurrected. So in his case he was not saved yet and neither were the other disciples. However it does seem to me that Jesus considered them to already be "heaven bound" He told them not to rejoice that the demons were subject to them but that their names were written in heaven. I'm not well studied up on this particular issue as far as when the disciples were actually "saved" but getting back to Judas ... before his betrayal of Jesus even as they were still out ministering it is recorded that he was a thief and would steal money from their money box (embezzlement). It seem to me that he never had a real conversion in the first place so he could not have lost what he didn't have.

Good comment Old man.
Its a mystery to me why he was chosen in the first place. Jesus knew all along that he would be betrayed...it is written.

[glad4mercy]

If this doctrine was accurate in that a person's belief in Christ is SECURE... then why is God giving this warning?

2 Peter 3:¹⁷ You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked;

I do not believe in OSAS. I believe in the security of the believer, that is, the one who is believing and abiding in Christ through faith is secure in Him for no one can snatch Him out of Christ's hand. If we depart from Him, we are in the act of abandoning hope, and will perish unless we repent. Now if one of His sheep does wander, He goes and searches for His own, and lays that one on his shoulder and carries the little one home. He may even have to break our leg to keep us from wandering, then mend us, ( ...He restoreth my soul). If we keep wandering away from Him in spite of all this, and forsake Him finally, how shall we escape the judgement of God. It would have been better for us to have never known, than to know and to depart from the truth. We must take heed to ourselves.

[Redeemed by Grace]

What about Judas...osas ?

Judas fulfilled the scriptures.

Acts 1:16 "Brethren, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit foretold by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.

John 17:12 "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

[Caleb]

"Paul says that nothing shall separate us from His love. Not even persecution nor tribulation, nor life nor death. Again I would like to point out that Paul does not say 'who can separate God's love from us' because that is without question impossible. If it were possible that we could stop God from loving us, or separate His love from us, then we would be His god, because we have changed Him. So, who or what can separate 'us' from His love? Unless you think Paul was somewhat misguided in his persuasions, then the answer is nothing and no one! Do you believe he got it wrong? Do you know something that Paul did not know?" (Caleb)


You are right that nothing can separate us from the love of God. However, the question is not whether God’s love for us can be diminished, taken away or lost; but our love for Him. “For God so loved the world …” speaks of His love for everyone not just believers and that love doesn’t change. Can our love for Him be diminished, lost (lost being a very poor choice of words) or corrupted to the point where we forfeit the gift of salvation given to us?

No, because that would then separate ‘us’ from His love.

Paul also says that ‘all things work together for good, for those that love the Lord’

If a person who loved the Lord, later lost that love to the point of separation, then something has not worked together for good.

The true love that I have for the Lord is not my love, but the love that has been shed abroad in my heart by the Holy Spirit.
Our own love is finite and limited, just as our own strength is finite and limited.

[Colight]

If child leaves the house and does wrong are they no longer your kids?
Can they become unborn and suddenly have the genetics of another set of parents, thru some action they do?

We are put into salvation thru a BIRTH, like physical birth it is a state that can not be undone.

1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

Physical birth is genetic, so is spiritual birth. For we are considered born in CHRIST. this would be a state that is unchangeable.


Since salvation is thru GRACE, not of any works.
It is logical to state then that works would also need to be ruled out as a means to maintain salvation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

The faithfulness of God it upon those he bought ( thru the blood of his son ), even when they are unfaithful.

2 Timothy 2:13
If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

So salvation is a gift, no form of works is needed to keep or maintain it.
God is faithful to his family, we are in the family thru Christ and his saving work on the cross.
As a family member we have the genetic tie to being IN CHRIST thru a spiritual birth rather than IN ADAM thru physical birth this is a state that is not reversible.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

[Old man]

Caleb;

John 10:28-29 NASB “(28) and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (29) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”

Romans 8:35-39 NASB “(35)Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? … (37) But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. (38) For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

I believe you are referring to both of these passages. The context of both of these is the inability of “external” things to steel us away or separate us from Christ or His love. Neither of these passages says anything about internal things that can. I am speaking about our ability to choose, which He did not removed from us when we first surrendered ourselves to Him. For example, consider the passage below which demonstrates our ability to choose.

1Co 10:13 NASB “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”

With each temptation, God provides a way of escape but we have decide to take it. He does not push us through that door we have to choose to go. Below is another reference you should consider. After talking about nothing being able to separate us from the love of Christ in Romans chapter 8 Paul talks about being cut off in chapter 11.

Rom 11:20-22 NASB “Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; (21) for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. (22) Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Paul is talking about how the Jews were cut off because they did not have faith in Christ and the gospel was then sent to the gentiles because of their unbelief, yet he is talking to those in Rome who do have faith in Christ. Here he mentions the possibility of those believers in Rome being cut off “if” (conditionally) “they” (their effort) did not remain in God’s kindness.

That being said remaining in “His kindness” is not dependent upon our deeds or works. Neither is it sin which would cause us to leave “His kindness” It comes down to what we deem to be a priority or preeminent to us which is revealed and demonstrated by our actions. Who or what is preeminent? Christ Himself mentions this issue about preeminence.

Luke 14:26-27 NASB "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. (27) "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple."

Salvation is not based on works!!! Continued salvation is not based on works!!!

Whether we stay in God's kindness or not is dependent upon what we allow to be preeminent be it Christ or someone or something else. Where our treasure is there our heart will be also.

[Caleb]

Caleb;

John 10:28-29 NASB “(28) and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (29) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”

Romans 8:35-39 NASB “(35)Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? … (37) But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. (38) For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

I believe you are referring to both of these passages. The context of both of these is the inability of “external” things to steel us away or separate us from Christ or His love. Neither of these passages says anything about internal things that can. I am speaking about our ability to choose, which He did not removed from us when we first surrendered ourselves to Him. For example, consider the passage below which demonstrates our ability to choose.

Hi Old Man!

I totally disagree.

When we come to Christ, it is a surrendering to His lordship (Head) of and over our lives. We confess that He is Lord.

You are now ‘no longer’ your own, for you were bought with a price, and your body and spirit belongs to God.

Does that mean we become robots? No, but when it comes to our will vs. God’s will, then we cannot trump God’s will.

It is God’s will that we come to repentance and are saved. Whilst we are our own, we are given the choice to surrender to His will or harden our hearts. Once we have made that choice to surrender to Him as Lord, we are not given the choice again.

We are now in the Body, and He is the Head of the Body, and it is for the Head to choose, decide and permit, what the Body can and cannot do. The arm cannot tell the Head, hey I want out. I want to be separated from the Body.

[Caleb]

1Co 10:13 NASB “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”

With each temptation, God provides a way of escape but we have decide to take it. He does not push us through that door we have to choose to go. Below is another reference you should consider. After talking about nothing being able to separate us from the love of Christ in Romans chapter 8 Paul talks about being cut off in chapter 11.

This does not speak of our salvation, but about our walk of faith.
We all often stumble and fall into temptation at times, does that mean we are lost and separated from Him?

If we fall and are separated because of temptation, then is that not something outside of us that caused to be separated?

Rom 11:20-22 NASB “Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; (21) for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. (22) Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Paul is talking about how the Jews were cut off because they did not have faith in Christ and the gospel was then sent to the gentiles because of their unbelief, yet he is talking to those in Rome who do have faith in Christ. Here he mentions the possibility of those believers in Rome being cut off “if” (conditionally) “they” (their effort) did not remain in God’s kindness.

That being said remaining in “His kindness” is not dependent upon our deeds or works. Neither is it sin which would cause us to leave “His kindness” It comes down to what we deem to be a priority or preeminent to us which is revealed and demonstrated by our actions. Who or what is preeminent? Christ Himself mentions this issue about preeminence.

Again, I don’t see this as a salvation issue, but about the position of being His favoured and privileged people on earth.

It does not speak of being separated from His unconditional agape, but from His conditional 'chrestos' towards us.

1. chrestos (G5543), "serviceable, good, pleasant" (of things), "good, gracious, kind" (of persons), is translated "kind" in Luk_6:35, of God; in Eph_4:32, enjoined upon believers. See BETTER, EASY, GOOD, GOODNESS, GRACIOUS.

Luke 14:26-27 NASB "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. (27) "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple."

Salvation is not based on works!!! Continued salvation is not based on works!!!

Whether we stay in God's kindness or not is dependent upon what we allow to be preeminent be it Christ or someone or something else. Where our treasure is there our heart will be also.

[Diggindeeper]

Caleb;

John 10:28-29 NASB “(28) and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (29) My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.”

Romans 8:35-39 NASB “(35)Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? … (37) But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. (38) For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, (39) nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

I believe you are referring to both of these passages. The context of both of these is the inability of “external” things to steel us away or separate us from Christ or His love. Neither of these passages says anything about internal things that can. I am speaking about our ability to choose, which He did not removed from us when we first surrendered ourselves to Him. For example, consider the passage below which demonstrates our ability to choose.

1Co 10:13 NASB “No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.”

With each temptation, God provides a way of escape but we have decide to take it. He does not push us through that door we have to choose to go. Below is another reference you should consider. After talking about nothing being able to separate us from the love of Christ in Romans chapter 8 Paul talks about being cut off in chapter 11.

Rom 11:20-22 NASB “Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; (21) for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. (22) Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.”

Paul is talking about how the Jews were cut off because they did not have faith in Christ and the gospel was then sent to the gentiles because of their unbelief, yet he is talking to those in Rome who do have faith in Christ. Here he mentions the possibility of those believers in Rome being cut off “if” (conditionally) “they” (their effort) did not remain in God’s kindness.

That being said remaining in “His kindness” is not dependent upon our deeds or works. Neither is it sin which would cause us to leave “His kindness” It comes down to what we deem to be a priority or preeminent to us which is revealed and demonstrated by our actions. Who or what is preeminent? Christ Himself mentions this issue about preeminence.

Luke 14:26-27 NASB "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. (27) "Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple."

Salvation is not based on works!!! Continued salvation is not based on works!!!

Whether we stay in God's kindness or not is dependent upon what we allow to be preeminent be it Christ or someone or something else. Where our treasure is there our heart will be also.

Old man, I have to agree! A few years ago I was listening to the radio and I heard a preacher say, "If Christ should return and catch me in the very act of adultery, I would STILL go to heaven." And yet the scriptures tell me this:

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Hebrews 13:4
Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.

James 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Revelations 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And, another preacher said from a pulpit, "Whether I want to be in heaven or not, I will be there...even if the angels must drag me there, kicking and screaming that I don't want to go."

It is WE who CAN and DO turn our back on God! The bottom line, to me, is this:
Do we love our darkness better than the light? (See John 3:19)

[Diggindeeper]

This does not speak of our salvation, but about our walk of faith.
We all often stumble and fall into temptation at times, does that mean we are lost and separated from Him?

If we fall and are separated because of temptation, then is that not something outside of us that caused to be separated?

Again, I don’t see this as a salvation issue, but about the position of being His favoured and privileged people on earth.

Listen, you are not very convincing. No one just simply "stumbles and falls" into adultery or fornication! No one! People do what they love doing. Period.

[Old man]

Greetings Caleb;

The idea of not being “robots” and not having free will where we can choose to obey God or not; are incompatible. Robots do not have free will. They do what they are told or programmed to do by the one to whom they belong. What is it then that makes us different than robots if we can not still make choices?

It is God’s will that none should perish but all come to repentance yet not all do; in fact, more don’t than do. Apparently they have been able to trump God’s will. It is God’s will that we not sin yet as believers we do and again trump God’s will. We are told by Paul not to grieve the Holy Spirit and I am sure that it is not God’s will that we grieve Him yet sometimes we do. When we do are we not trumping God’s will?

"It is God’s will that we come to repentance and are saved. Whilst we are our own, we are given the choice to surrender to His will or harden our hearts. Once we have made that choice to surrender to Him as Lord, we are not given the choice again."

Paul was very particular about the traveling companions he had or allowed to be with him while he traveled. Remember the dispute he had with Barnabas concerning Mark? He expected those who went with him to be committed to Christ and serve Him with a whole heart. In multiple places he reminds the saints how he and those with him behaved in the cities they visited and ministered in and that they were an example of those who served Christ. There is a traveling companion of his named Demas:

Col. 4:14 NASB “Luke, the beloved physician, sends you his greetings, and also Demas.”
Phm. 1:23-24 NASB “Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, (24) as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow workers.”

Yet the last we know of Demas is recorded in second Timothy:

2 Tim. 4:9-10 NASB “(9) Make every effort to come to me soon; (10) for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.”

Prior to this Paul considered Demas to be a “Fellow worker” but somehow Demas had now chosen to love this world instead. He made a choice after he had been bought by Christ to make the world his priority and he walked away from Christ.

In the Book of Revelation, chapters 2 and 3 are letters to the angels or overseers of the churches. In each of the letters the overseer is called by Christ to make a choice as to what the angel will determine as being his priority or what is preeminent to him. Every letter has this issue only concerning different circumstances. Every overseer is given the directive to "overcome." Being given the directive to overcome does not automatically mean that they will. Those who overcome will receive the reward mentioned (if they overcome). If they do not overcome they will not get the reward that those who overcome get. Many of those rewards are things we use to indicate salvation. What they chose to be preeminent determines whether they will remain in Christ or not.



You misunderstand the context of the image of us being the body of Christ. The context is that we all have different functions and purposes and none are more important nor less important than any other. No one is more needful or less needful than another. It is not to indicate that we are inseparable as if it were a physical body such as we have here. I can not remove my arm but this physical trait of our bodies is not included in nor implied by that passage. You are adding context to it that doesn’t belong.

[Caleb]

Listen, you are not very convincing. No one just simply "stumbles and falls" into adultery or fornication! No one! People do what they love doing. Period.

What’s with the ‘Listen’?
Are you as arrogant as you appear to come across, or is it just how I wrongly perceive you?

No problem, not everyone was convinced by Jesus either.

[Caleb]

Greetings Caleb;

The idea of not being “robots” and not having free will where we can choose to obey God or not; are incompatible. Robots do not have free will. They do what they are told or programmed to do by the one to whom they belong. What is it then that makes us different than robots if we can not still make choices?

Hi again Old man!
We have a limited free will as a servant or slave has to their Master who owns them, or a child has to their parent, and neither are robots.

If a bought servant says to his master, I no longer want you to be my master, who’s choice is it to decide?

It is God’s will that none should perish but all come to repentance yet not all do; in fact, more don’t than do. Apparently they have been able to trump God’s will. It is God’s will that we not sin yet as believers we do and again trump God’s will. We are told by Paul not to grieve the Holy Spirit and I am sure that it is not God’s will that we grieve Him yet sometimes we do. When we do are we not trumping God’s will?

Again we have a limited free will. God has His perfect will and His permitted will.
It is His choice to let us live or die when we rebel or disobey. If He chooses to be patient and long suffering towards us, or chastise us until we turn and obey, or decides to take our life there and then, then that is up to God.

God provided a way for us to be saved. Can you show me where He provided a way for us to become unsaved?

"It is God’s will that we come to repentance and are saved. Whilst we are our own, we are given the choice to surrender to His will or harden our hearts. Once we have made that choice to surrender to Him as Lord, we are not given the choice again."

Paul was very particular about the traveling companions he had or allowed to be with him while he traveled. Remember the dispute he had with Barnabas concerning Mark? He expected those who went with him to be committed to Christ and serve Him with a whole heart. In multiple places he reminds the saints how he and those with him behaved in the cities they visited and ministered in and that they were an example of those who served Christ. There is a traveling companion of his named Demas:

Col. 4:14 NASB “Luke, the beloved physician, sends you his greetings, and also Demas.”
Phm. 1:23-24 NASB “Epaphras, my fellow prisoner in Christ Jesus, greets you, (24) as do Mark, Aristarchus, Demas, Luke, my fellow workers.”

Yet the last we know of Demas is recorded in second Timothy:

2 Tim. 4:9-10 NASB “(9) Make every effort to come to me soon; (10) for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.”

Prior to this Paul considered Demas to be a “Fellow worker” but somehow Demas had now chosen to love this world instead. He made a choice after he had been bought by Christ to make the world his priority and he walked away from Christ.

In the Book of Revelation, chapters 2 and 3 are letters to the angels or overseers of the churches. In each of the letters the overseer is called by Christ to make a choice as to what the angel will determine as being his priority or what is preeminent to him. Every letter has this issue only concerning different circumstances. Every overseer is given the directive to "overcome." Being given the directive to overcome does not automatically mean that they will. Those who overcome will receive the reward mentioned (if they overcome). If they do not overcome they will not get the reward that those who overcome get. Many of those rewards are things we use to indicate salvation. What they chose to be preeminent determines whether they will remain in Christ or not.

I don't see were any of those speak about salvation, or the loss of salvation?

You misunderstand the context of the image of us being the body of Christ.

Hmmm….Is it that I misunderstand, or that you don’t agree?

The context is that we all have different functions and purposes and none are more important nor less important than any other. No one is more needful or less needful than another. It is not to indicate that we are inseparable as if it were a physical body such as we have here. I can not remove my arm but this physical trait of our bodies is not included in nor implied by that passage. You are adding context to it that doesn’t belong.

I fully understand the context, do you understand what being the 'head' means?

[Mark F]

This is a tough one to address because people have so many beliefs that
are not fully exposed. Such as: Is your salvation removed from you by God as
punishment? Or is it only a willful abandonment on our behalf, of a faith we once
professed, yet never possed?

Is there a more clear verse than John?

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

In my understanding the "christian" that falls away is demonstrating the difference between
mental assent and conversion. I believe Hebrews 6 is showing those who know the gospel just that they
have not surrendered to it.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22

21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

So it dosen't appear that God is doing the taking of our salvation if He gives us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

or this passage in Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:12-14

12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

What do these verses mean if they aren't to give us comfort that we cannot mess up enough to forfeit our salvation.

All the verses you post Slug1 are the discriminators to expose the "professor" from the "possesor".
It is obvious that we must remain to be saved, to think that at one moment "I believed and said a prayer, now
I'm saved", yet I live in sin is a no brainer---not saved. But there are many unsaved church members in America.

I agree with Diggindeeper that the one who is a fornicator or habitual sinner is only living out
what is truly in thier heart and their condition is made manifest, a christian can stumble and will, but they don't wallow in the mire.

That's my $.02. At least some of it.