OSAS Question

[Eyelog]

Mailman, this is a wonderful post. You really saved me a lot of work having to look up and dissect a few passages in order to express why Gadge's interpretations of those passage is not as sure-fire as he concludes.

But I really like your concession at the end, where you admit that you could be wrong, and where you describe the high wall next to the cliff, which we can decide to jump over.

My position is that those who are truly saved will not walk on the dividing wall, but will do what they can to stay off of it and away from the edge. In those places where there is real danger, like if they are asked to apostasize or die, the wall may be lower, but they still won't venture close to it. The rough part is that we can remain too entangled in our life in this world to avoid a fork in the road,and path with a dropoff. In that case, we will face situations where we need to climb back over the wall with great trouble, if we want to avoid the free fall. Again, the perseverant, even if they are on that side of the wall will find a way out. Love always finds a way. But they find a way because they love the Lord more than they love their life in this world. That can be a tough one, when being able to feed one's family, or keeping them from captivity or attack, is at stake. In the end times this will happen, and he who kills with the sword must die by the sword.

Revelation 13:10
If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.

But, in this present age, it is easy to live as a friend of the World, loiving our families and our ability to support them in a lifestyle of friendship with the world far more than we love God. We are even deceived to think that loving our family in that way is loving God. Hence, the lukewarm.

Will the lukewarm be ready for the real tests which will come?

Will they please the master?

Will they be sheep instead of goats?

My view is that only those who persevere to the end can be said to have been OSAS, and the rest, how would they, let alone you and I, know if they were ever saved? The whole 'can you lose your salvation' question is full of huge underlying implications, regardless of one's position. but who will persevere unto overcoming is the only thing that really matters there, in my view:

Revelation 14:12
Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Revelation 21:6-8
6 Then He said to me, “ It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

You see, I don't think people are 'being saved' if they are not working to overcome, just as you say the OSAS view doe not "teach that someone can continuously practice sin as a willful habitual lifestyle and be a Christian at the same time."

Essentially, what you are saying, then, is that they are not saved to begin with if they continuously practice sin as a willul habitual lifestyle. In other words, they are not participating in the perseverance of the saints, and thereby producing fruit, but only thorns and thistles.

[Gadgeteer]

I agree that "saving sanctification" coexists with "justification" and "washed/regenerated" (1 Corinthians 6:11) and none happen without sealing-by-the-Spirit, (and we both agree that 1 Corinthians 7:14 is teaching a non-saving sanctification) yet if sanctified by the blood of the covenant in verse 29 truly is saving sanctification and these Hebrews were truly "saved" and not simply "set apart" or identified as an active participant in the Christian community of believers, then for the life of me I can't figure out why the writer says they drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back don't believe to the saving of the soul. How can we be saved if we don't believe to the saving of the soul?

Hi, Dan. The message is conveying movement; "belief" is not a one-time-event, it's a continuing process. Take Romans1:17 ("The righteousness of God is revealed from beginning faith to ending faith" --- Lightfoot, "faith-the-start to faith-the-goal"). Now contrast that with Galatians3:3, "Having begun in the Spirit are you now ending in the flesh?"

If God really meant "fall from salvation" or "lose salvation", then I those specific words would clear it up for me.

I see "fallible salvation" in the entire letter.

• In 2:1-3 we can "drift away and not escape if we are not diligent and neglect so great a salvation"
• 3:8 "do not harden your hearts"
• 3:12-13 a warning to take care lest we be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God
• 3:6 and 14 we are Christ's house and partners if we HOLD FAST/CONTINUE in faith and not be moved away
• 4:1 Godly concern about falling short of God's grace
• 4:11 (with 3:18-19) warning not to fall and fail to enter God's rest by imitating their disobedience and unbelief
• 6:4 those who had TRUE KNOWLEDGE but willfully turn back to sin, will not want to repent
• 6:7-8 A field decides whether it produces good fruit (and is blessed), or thorns (and is cursed & burned)
• 6:9 We are convinced (hopeful!) of better things of salvation, though we speak of FALLING-from-salvation
• 6:11-12 diligence required of us THAT we not imitate the sluggish BUT those who by faith and patience inherit the promises
• 10:26-29 if WE continue in sin after having TRUE knowledge, no longer a sacrifice but terrifying expectation of judgment/fire
• 10:35 Don't throw away your confidence (w/6:19 & 10:19 don't throw away JESUS!)
• 12:1-2 Let us run the race with endurance, avoid the sin that so easily entangles us
• 12:3 Consider what Jesus went through, and don't grow weary and lose heart
• 12:7-8 We HAVE BECOME partners in God's discipline, but if we ARE WITHOUT then we are not sons
• 12:9 SHALL we not much rather CONTINUE in submission to God's discipline AND LIVE (eternally!)?
• 13:9 Don't be carried away by strange and varied teachings (see Col2:6-8, walk in Christ and don't be taken captive by worldly deceptions)

So yes, I see "fall-from-salvation" and "lose-salvation" in all of it. Especially 3:12-13 and 4:11.

In Hebrews 6:9, the author says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION.

Don't you see the message there (and throughout Scripture) "Don't be like them"? I see it clearly in 6:9, more in 6:11-12, in 4:11, and I see it in Peter's words 2:1:9. How can we be told "don't be like those who fell", if we cannot fall?

Again, I see two different camps. Hebrews 6:7,8 - For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. (This would accompany salvation) But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned. Thorns and thistles and falling away are not descriptive of things that "accompany salvation."

Right; the whole message is "make a choice --- don't be like those who produce thorns."

[Gadgeteer]

A BROTHER for whom Christ died, is really NOT a brother and NOT one Jesus died for? This is repeated in 1Cor8:11; we can ruin the faith of others (2tim2:18).

One argument that I heard in a debate was that he was a brother in the visible church but not in Christ.

It's a warning not to cause movement --- if he was really warning against an unsaved-person, why would he "warn not to cause movement"? He would be warning to cause movement TO real salvation.

Not saying that I agree with it, just bringing up every possible argument. Christ died for the ungodly. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (Romans 5:6,8). He didn't just die for those who will be saved.

True --- 2Pet2:1 Jesus died even for the horrible reprobate monsters described so condemnedly.

So these verses are teaching that these people had genuine saving faith and their faith was ruined to the point that they had faith no more and are no longer saved? So it goes like this, "I have placed my faith in you for salvation Jesus (woops, wait a minute, I just saw someone eat food that was sacrificed to idols or someone said that the resurrection is already passed, I now withdraw my faith in you for salvation Jesus." I no longer trust in you. What kind of faith is that from the start? How weak can you get?

It does seem to be weak faith; but then --- what is "weak faith"? Why are WE admonished in Jude20 to "build ourselves in holy faith"? Weak faith is a problem for everyone. I think what Paul was teaching is that a weak brother could be led into sin. "Well HE does things like eating food from idols; it must be okay if I ______". And so the brother is led into sin by our actions.

Exactly how can we RUIN a brother for whom Christ died, if it's not speaking of "upsetting his faith", as 2Tim2:18 does? See 1Tim6:20-21. It's clearly asserting "damage his faith".

Upsetting or damaging I can understand but faith is completely wiped out and is no more? That faith would have to be as weak as it gets.

Not necessarily; as an airplane can get diverted a little at a time until it is way off course, unbelief and sin are the same. And THAT is why we're warned to not harden our hearts, to take care lest we be hardened by deceitful sin to falling away from God (Heb3:8-14); when we "build ourselves in faith" and "keep ourselves in His love", our hands are on the airplane's yoke keeping us headed towards Christ.

[Gadgeteer]

Unto or for the day of redemption offers no guarantee? Why do certain translations of the Bible say "guarantee?" Those who believe the gospel are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance.. (Ephesians 1:13-14 NKJV, ESV, NIV, CJB). In 2 Corinthians 1:22, these same translations also say, guarantee and 2 Corinthians 5:5 also mentions the word guarantee. Why the word "guarantee" if the promise can be broken?

"Arrabōn" is "pledge/down-payment". All real-estate brokers know a down-payment can be forfeited.

If we are sealed in Him unto or for the day of redemption, then why seal us at all if the promise can be broken?

Look at Eph1:13 --- we were sealed after believing. If the seal is affixed TO (through) our belief, then what happens if we become deceived into unbelief? The seal gets broken, doesn't it?

Look at how 1Pet1:4-5 fits in --- the inheritance is reserved in Heaven for us, who are protected by the power of God THROUGH FAITH for a salvation to be revealed in the end time. His power, our faith. His seal/pledge/down-payment, affixed on the parchment of our belief. :-)

In the context (17-24) Paul did say "the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart." He also said "you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk. "Should no longer walk" seems to imply a danger of walking as they do, but does this mean at times or permanently going back to walking that way, continuously?

I perceive "permanently". Once again, "Don't be like them!"

The Jews are referred to as the "natural branches" (vs. 17) but that of course does not mean they are all naturally saved.

The "Old Covenant" was based on faith.

Were all the natural branches (Jews) in the olive tree to begin with? The branches that were said to have been broken off for "unbelief" were never said to have previously believed. What exactly does the olive tree represent? Simply salvation or is there more to this analogy? I see "olive tree" mentioned in the Old Testament (Jeremiah 11:1-17; Isaiah 17:4-6, 24:5-15; Psalm 52:8; Psalm 128; Hosea 14:5-6). Do you see a reference to the Jews as the covenant people of God? Just because Jews were the covenant people of God does not mean they were all saved.

He's always been called "The Vine"; salvation was by faith, and it still is. Because Jesus is the Promised Messiah, "continuing in the vine" means they receive Jesus, for Jesus came from God and rejecting Jesus is rejecting God. Thus, those who kept Law, if they truly believed God would believe Jesus (Jn14:1, 7, 10).

The Gentiles should not be using their covanental inclusion (and the unbelieving Jews exclusion) as a source of pride. If God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare us either. What kind of belief does not continue? Not saving belief. If these Jews who were broken off for unbelief means they were believers and lost their salvation, then where does verse 23 fit in?

It fits in fine --- it's the same as James5:19-20, if they don't continue in unbelief they'll be restored.

And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. Saved, lost salvation, saved again? Where does verse 25 and 26 fit in? For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved.. This gets deep.

The passage covers two issues --- the idea of "natural/wild branches", teaching about Jews and also Gentiles; and it covers "inclusion by belief" --- we, wild branches Gentiles, should not be arrogant towards the Jews natural branches, for we stand by faith. Behold then the kindness and severity of God --- to those who fell, severity; to us kindness, if we CONTINUE in His kindness otherwise we also will be cut off. And those who fell, will be restored if they do not continue in unbelief.

It's a clear teaching to me.

[Gadgeteer]

Judas was chosen so that the Scripture may be fulfilled, "He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me" (John 13:18). This was not said of the other eleven. Also, in John 13:10-11, Judas was said to be unclean and this was not said of the other eleven. In John 6:70, Jesus clearly referred to Judas as a "devil" and this was not said of the other eleven. Obviously, Judas was chosen for a different reason than the other eleven.

I don't see a difference; "I chose you the TWELVE" conveys they were all chosen equally.

Leaving is possible, but look at what Jesus said of those who followed Him no more. Verse 64 - But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. They left, along with Judas the devil, but not the other eleven disciples. Verse 68 are the words of a genuine believer - But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. In verse 69, you may say that Peter upheld Judas as a believer yet Jesus corrected him by saying that one of you is a devil! A devil is not a saved believer.

Judas was a devil because he left. Two places Jesus told Peter that his faith was absolutely fallible --- the other is Luke22:31-34. There too Peter protested his loyalty, claiming he would NEVER deny Jesus --- and Jesus said "You'll deny Me three times tonight."

I see nothing to suggest that Judas was ever a saved believer. Unbelieving, unclean devil that would betray Him (John 6:64-71; 13:10,11) and the son of perdition (John 17:12) does not sound like a saved believer to me.

Clearly he wasn't saved WHEN he betrayed Jesus; but I don't see how we can change "I chose YOU THE TWELVE", and "I chose you (to be disciples) and ordained you bear fruit that remains", into "I chose ELEVEN of you to be saved disciples but I chose one unbelieving-devil to be..." To be what? What purpose did Judas serve, beyond "fulfilling prophecy"?

And we still have the fact that Judas is held out as the answer to Peter's loyalty. Twice answered, twice the same:

(Luke22) Peter: "I will NEVER leave You, I'll go to jail and even DIE for You."
Jesus: "You'll deny Me three times TONIGHT."

(John6) Peter: "We will never leave You, we know You're the Messiah."
Jesus: "I chose all twelve of you, and one of you (is leaving)."

Everyone's faith is fallible without the Lord. I didn't come to believe in Christ for salvation because through mere human intelligence I read Scripture and figured it out all by myself and it's not in my power that my faith is sustained either. Jesus prayed for Peter that his faith may not fail.

In Luke22, did Jesus consider Peter's faith fallible? It reads so to me.

Jesus knew the future and told Peter, when you have returned to Me, strengthen your brethren (Luke 22:32).

What is "returned", in the Greek? Epistrepho really does convey a spiritual turning. One cannot turn back, if he's never turned away.

Peter himself had a weak moment and failed to confess Christ, but his faith did not ultimately fail. Again, leaving is possible according to Jesus in John 6:64-70, yet look at how Jesus describes those who leave.

Jesus prayed THAT Peter's faith not fail --- never did Jesus act as if Peter's faith COULD not fail.

[Gadgeteer]

Wanders away from the faith that he professed to have or actually had? Would you call this wandering backsliding?

Yes; but "backslidden" is not saved.

Actually, I was pointing out that "death" can either refer to "physical" or "spiritual death." Is that true or false?

True. But context shows he was somewhere he could wander away from, and it was a place he could be brought back TO. Clearly "faithlessness" and "unforgiven sins" are in view; has to be movement to "unsalvation".

I also showed you how 1 Peter 4:8 says, Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins. James 5:20 says cover a multitude of sins. So if we love others, does that mean sins will be washed away or covered in a lesser sense? Sins of others covered by love as a veil thrown over them?

The context has two opposing positions; "wandered-from-faith-soul-death" (unsaved!), and "saved-covered-sins" (has to be "restored salvation").

In Matthew 20:18 - ...the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn him to death - thanatos. Of course, spiritual condemnation is not in view. In Matthew 26:38, Jesus did say, "My soul [psuche] is deeply grieved, to the point of death" - thanatos. I'm just comparing Scripture with Scripture. If we interpreted all Scripture at face-value, then we would conclude that we are saved by works "justified by works" (James 2:24) and that we are saved by baptism "baptism now saves us" (1 Peter 3:21). Of course, you and I know that we are not saved by water and works. That would contradict other passages of Scripture. Scripture must harmonize with other Scripture or else these face-value interpretations would contradict other Scripture.

Right; but in James' words a man can wander away from a place he actually had been ("in the faith"!), to a place where he is soul-dead and unforgiven-sins.

If "upset" the faith of some means they "had saving faith but no longer do" because someone said the resurrection has already happened, they had an extremely weak faith! What kind of faith is that? 1 Timothy 6:10 and 6:21says wandered from the faith, which according to James 5:19,20 is recoverable.

It is recoverable; as Rom11:23 says, "if they do not continue in unbelief".

In the Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words - the reference is to the great test as to whether Christ is in a person; in 2 Tim. 3:8 of those "reprobate concerning the faith," i.e., men whose moral sense is perverted and whose minds are beclouded with their own speculations; in Titus 1:16, of the defiled, who are "unto every good work reprobate," i.e., if they are put to the test in regard to any good work (in contrast to their profession), they can only be rejected. If disqualified for the prize means disqualified for salvation, then this chapter is very confusing. Verses 17-18 say, For if I do this of my own will, I have a reward, but if not of my own will, I am still entrusted with a stewardship. What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel. verses 24-25 say, Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. This sounds like an Olympic race to me. All runners run, but only one receive a gold medal. Is everyone else disqualified from the race?

The race-for-salvation is an individual race; each runs his own race, each wins salvation. See Heb12:1-3, run with endurance the race set before us, fixing our eyes upon Jesus the archegos-leader/prince and teleiotes-chief-example of faith; and let us not grow weary and lose heart, considering the example He set by the Crucifixion.

Proverbs 24:16 says, For a righteous man may FALL seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. If born-again was fallible because of sin, then all who are born again would become un-born again because we are not sinless. Fall does not necessarily mean that we permanently fall and never get back up again, as stated in Proverbs 24:16.

And yet Ezk18:24 says a righteous man can BECOME wicked, and die. Make a choice (Ezk18:31-23) is the theme of Scripture. Most eloquent in Deut30:11-20, where "hold fast" is part of the choice...

We all need warnings. Unbelievers need to be warned that if they don't believe, they won't be saved. Believers can experience all kinds of problems if they do not heed warnings. I came from a Roman Catholic background in which I associated NOSAS with works salvation. It took time for me to disassociate works salvation with everyone who teaches NOSAS. After having many discussions with various people on this forum, I can see that not everyone in the NOSAS camp teaches works salvation.

I certainly don't; the works expose where the heart WAS --- he who abides in Christ has good works (even as James said), but he who has evil works reveals a heart that did not know Christ.

I've heard good arguments come from believers who teach NOSAS and OSAS, but we must certainly reject "works salvation" on the extreme side of the NOSAS camp and a "license to sin" on the extreme side of the OSAS camp.

Amen!

If I am mistaken and it is possible for a really "saved" person to really "lose their salvation," then I would say that our salvation is as secure as a man walking along the edge of a cliff that has a high wall between him and the edge. He is secure. But, he is still free to climb the wall and go over the other side.

I think it's more subtle than that; it's as if we can walk in such a way as that there IS a high wall protecting us, and we can walk in such a way that there is no wall at all. Thus:

Col2:6-8 "Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. "

Walk in Him, established and built-up in faith (the wall), and do not be taken captive away from Jesus by worldly deception (no wall).

The Bible does not paint a picture of a Christian living on a tightrope that he or she might slip off of suddenly, but neither does it teach that someone can continuously practice sin as a willful habitual lifestyle and be a Christian at the same time.

Right. It teaches "protected by the power of God through faith", and "build yourselves in faith, keep yourselves in His love".

I'm out of time. Good discussion!

No wonder! It took me considerable time to type the reply! But you are worth it, even if we don't agree; and I pray you and I are of benefit to others reading.

It is a good discussion!!!

:-)

[Slug1]

After having many discussions with various people on this forum, I can see that not everyone in the NOSAS camp teaches works salvation. I've heard good arguments come from believers who teach NOSAS and OSAS, but we must certainly reject "works salvation" on the extreme side of the NOSAS camp and a "license to sin" on the extreme side of the OSAS camp.

While I've voiced these sentaments in the past... hearing this from others is a blessing... so I'll AMEN this statement as well.

If I am mistaken and it is possible for a really "saved" person to really "lose their salvation," then I would say that our salvation is as secure as a man walking along the edge of a cliff that has a high wall between him and the edge. He is secure. But, he is still free to climb the wall and go over the other side. The Bible does not paint a picture of a Christian living on a tightrope that he or she might slip off of suddenly, but neither does it teach that someone can continuously practice sin as a willful habitual lifestyle and be a Christian at the same time.

I'm out of time. Good discussion!

Based on this analogy, a person who continues to abide in Christ all their life, they can dance, hop, run, and skip along that cliff's edge. Can we say the same for a person who turns away and doesn't abide??

The narrow path IS that tightrope and negotiating it while abiding... no problem. Stop abiding... how long before they fall off?

[Gadgeteer]

Mailman, this is a wonderful post. You really saved me a lot of work having to look up and dissect a few passages in order to express why Gadge's interpretations of those passage is not as sure-fire as he concludes.

Hi, Eyelog. I really value both your and Dan's posts; I look forward to your thoughts on how I replied to Dan. :-)

But I really like your concession at the end, where you admit that you could be wrong, and where you describe the high wall next to the cliff, which we can decide to jump over.

I think it's more subtle than that; it's as if we can walk in such a way as that there IS a high wall protecting us, and we can walk in such a way that there is no wall at all. Thus:

Col2:6-8 "Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. "

Walk in Him, established and built-up in faith (the wall), and do not be taken captive away from Jesus by worldly deception (no wall).

My position is that those who are truly saved will not walk on the dividing wall, but will do what they can to stay off of it and away from the edge. In those places where there is real danger, like if they are asked to apostasize or die, the wall may be lower, but they still won't venture close to it.

This is the heart of the discussion -- what is the actual danger?

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3

What is the danger?

The rough part is that we can remain too entangled in our life in this world to avoid a fork in the road,and path with a dropoff. In that case, we will face situations where we need to climb back over the wall with great trouble, if we want to avoid the free fall. Again, the perseverant, even if they are on that side of the wall will find a way out. Love always finds a way. But they find a way because they love the Lord more than they love their life in this world. That can be a tough one, when being able to feed one's family, or keeping them from captivity or attack, is at stake. In the end times this will happen, and he who kills with the sword must die by the sword.

Jude says "KEEP yourselves in His love" --- how does love find a way, if we don't keep ourselves in it (Him)?

But, in this present age, it is easy to live as a friend of the World, loving our families and our ability to support them in a lifestyle of friendship with the world far more than we love God. We are even deceived to think that loving our family in that way is loving God. Hence, the lukewarm.

Will the lukewarm be ready for the real tests which will come?

Will they please the master?

Will they be sheep instead of goats?

My view is that only those who persevere to the end can be said to have been OSAS, and the rest, how would they, let alone you and I, know if they were ever saved? The whole 'can you lose your salvation' question is full of huge underlying implications, regardless of one's position. but who will persevere unto overcoming is the only thing that really matters there, in my view:

You see, I don't think people are 'being saved' if they are not working to overcome, just as you say the OSAS view doe not "teach that someone can continuously practice sin as a willful habitual lifestyle and be a Christian at the same time."

As long as we agree that salvation is "abiding-in-Christ", and drawing near to Him with all our hearts, then we agree sufficiently to fellowship in Christ and celebrate salvation together.

Essentially, what you are saying, then, is that they are not saved to begin with if they continuously practice sin as a willful habitual lifestyle. In other words, they are not participating in the perseverance of the saints, and thereby producing fruit, but only thorns and thistles.

And that's still the issue --- are the SAVED in danger from sin? Can a "tilled field", tilled expecting fruit, produce thorns and thistles? Heb6:7-8 says they can.

I look forward to your thoughts on the previous five posts with enthusiasm.

:-)

[mailmandan]

Mailman, this is a wonderful post. You really saved me a lot of work having to look up and dissect a few passages in order to express why Gadge's interpretations of those passage is not as sure-fire as he concludes. But I really like your concession at the end, where you admit that you could be wrong, and where you describe the high wall next to the cliff, which we can decide to jump over.

Hi Eyelog,

Thank you for your encouraging words. For a genuine born again Christian to later completely reject Christ and lose their salvation is unfathomable to me, yet if it is possible, then climbing over a high wall next to a cliff best describes my way of understanding it. I see this as no accident, but a deliberate rejection of Christ with full knowledge of what you are doing. That gives me chills just to think about it!

My position is that those who are truly saved will not walk on the dividing wall, but will do what they can to stay off of it and away from the edge. In those places where there is real danger, like if they are asked to apostasize or die, the wall may be lower, but they still won't venture close to it.

That's how I would see it too. The Lord knows the future and for Him to regenerate and seal someone in Christ with the Holy Spirit would be a waste of time only to later have this cancelled and reversed. The Lord knows who His elect are, not because He fatalistically determines who they will be without us choosing to believe but because He knows the future.

Again, the perseverant, even if they are on that side of the wall will find a way out. Love always finds a way. But they find a way because they love the Lord more than they love their life in this world.

Notice when Peter denied the Lord three times, afterward, he went out and wept bitterly (Luke 22:62). Peter demonstrated godly sorrow. Judas Iscariot betrayed Jesus then went and committed suicide. He only demonstrated worldly sorrow. Peter truly loved the Lord and showed it through his actions, even though he had a weak moment. I found it interesting that the term "fall away" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. This was said to be a "falling away" (Matthew 26:31-35). Obviously, this is not a loss of salvation. For these genuine believers it may have involved a temporary period of backsliding, but it wasn't permanent.

My view is that only those who persevere to the end can be said to have been OSAS, and the rest, how would they, let alone you and I, know if they were ever saved? The whole 'can you lose your salvation' question is full of huge underlying implications, regardless of one's position. but who will persevere unto overcoming is the only thing that really matters there, in my view:

I guess that I have more faith in God to preserve me than I do in preserving myself. Saving faith perseveres to the end and is not some superficial temporary faith that has no root and produces no fruit.

You see, I don't think people are 'being saved' if they are not working to overcome, just as you say the OSAS view does not "teach that someone can continuously practice sin as a willful habitual lifestyle and be a Christian at the same time." Essentially, what you are saying, then, is that they are not saved to begin with if they continuously practice sin as a willul habitual lifestyle. In other words, they are not participating in the perseverance of the saints, and thereby producing fruit, but only thorns and thistles.

That's how I see it. In 1 Corinthians 6:9-11, we read: Do you not know that the unrighteous (lost people) will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were (past tense) some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified (saved people) in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

In Galatians 5:19-21, we read: Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Verse 10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother. Those who make a practice of doing such things, as a pattern of life. It is the lifestyle, or pattern of this behavior being exibited in one's life. To stumble and sin intermittently is different than making these behaviors a lifestyle. Practice (prasso) means to be occupied with, to accomplish or to practice. The idea is to perform repeatedly or habitually and thus describes repetition or continuous action. (This sounds like no remorse, no repentance, just bring it on to me). Paul uses the present tense which describes the practice as habitual, as one's lifestyle or bent of life. Those who continue to practice such sins, I believe demonstrate that they have not been born of God.

God bless you brother!

[Eyelog]

Eyelog said: My view is that only those who persevere to the end can be said to have been OSAS, and the rest, how would they, let alone you and I, know if they were ever saved? The whole 'can you lose your salvation' question is full of huge underlying implications, regardless of one's position. but who will persevere unto overcoming is the only thing that really matters there, in my view:

I guess that I have more faith in God to preserve me than I do in preserving myself. Saving faith perseveres to the end and is not some superficial temporary faith that has no root and produces no fruit.

There, I was addressing the assurance of salvation issue. Those who are not persevering don't have a very high quality of, nor strength of, their assurance of salvation. There are at least 5 different sources of such assurance:

1. Jesus comes out and tells you
2. Gift of faith/belief of the promise
3. Awareness of the indwelling of the Spirit
4. Growing faith and assurance received after serving well and/or overcoming testing, trial, tribulation, affliction, suffering or loss via, and/or while keeping, the faith
5. Proactively participating in the building of Character.

The 4th and 5th are closely associated, and it is those which give us the greatest assurance of faith. They are both associated with perseverence, of course.

1 Timothy 3:13
For those who have served well as deacons obtain for themselves a high standing and great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. Romans 5

10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 2 Peter 1

I think that there is false assurance of salvation out there. And it is very dangerous. One surprising example is actually functioning in the Spirit and/or using spiritual gifts to produce miracles of various kinds. See sheep/goats.

[Eyelog]

Hi, Eyelog. I really value both your and Dan's posts; I look forward to your thoughts on how I replied to Dan. :-)
This is the heart of the discussion -- what is the actual danger?

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3

What is the danger? Jude says "KEEP yourselves in His love" --- how does love find a way, if we don't keep ourselves in it (Him)?
As long as we agree that salvation is "abiding-in-Christ", and drawing near to Him with all our hearts, then we agree sufficiently to fellowship in Christ and celebrate salvation together.
And that's still the issue --- are the SAVED in danger from sin? Can a "tilled field", tilled expecting fruit, produce thorns and thistles? Heb6:7-8 says they can.

I look forward to your thoughts on the previous five posts with enthusiasm.

:-)

Hi, Gadge.

Surely you saw my last post under John 6 and NOSAS.

I think there are evidences each way here. I think that dependence on past tense and present tense verbs, and relying on assumptions (well-founded) as to the nature of saving faith can help us to each see it the way we want to see it.

I just don't think someone who God has a hold on, and who has a hold on God, will choose to fall away completely. This is about what I call perseverence, which is one of the fruit of the Spirit.

But when we are not walking with Him, I think we do put ourselves in danger of falling away, ... it's just that we always have the choice in this lifetime to come back, and if we do I don't think that means we lost our salvation, but that we really did belong to Him.

On the other hand, the person who is uninitiated into perseverence in walking closely with Him may well fall away completely. I think all but the 4th soil are unsaved in that parable if they never become the 4th soil. However, I think we can fall away from being the 4th soil, and when that happens we have good reason to be concerned about our salvation. People can act like any of the soils even if they are the 4th, as well. It is all a matter of whether we will repent and get back to where we belong and grow in Him, becoming increasingly fruitful.

As such, what does the final answer matter? Those who remain in Him get saved. Those who fall away but then get back into remaining in Him get saved. Those who began with him and fall away and never get back to remaining in Him don't get saved. But what does it mean to begin with Him and then never finish the race well? I don't think that person gets saved. Why? Because they were never saved to begin with.

So, there we are, back to the question of what saving faith is. And my view of saving faith differs from yours, perhaps. It likely differs from Mailman's, I don't know. No doubt my view of it differs from Slug's.

But I don't think one's view of OSAS does more than reveal some of these differences in what it takes to be saved.

The problem with a lot of the OSAS crowd is simply that they have no built-in understanding of what it means to persevere in Christ and the consequences of not. Why? Again, it is their definition of saving faith.

Then, I focus on assurance of salvation as a major issue, because it is easy to be deceived that you are saved, especially when you don't think perseverence of the saints has anything to do with getting saved to begin with.

God bless you, brother.

[Eyelog]

While I've voiced these sentaments in the past... hearing this from others is a blessing... so I'll AMEN this statement as well.

Based on this analogy, a person who continues to abide in Christ all their life, they can dance, hop, run, and skip along that cliff's edge. Can we say the same for a person who turns away and doesn't abide??

The narrow path IS that tightrope and negotiating it while abiding... no problem. Stop abiding... how long before they fall off?

Hi, Slug.

I think you and I agree on this, but I don't go so far as to say a person is 'unsaved' the moment they fall off the wall or the thightrope or the path. I think they have their life ahead to choose to get back up there, or to stay on the saved side altogether. So, I take the long view. You can't properly say someone lost their salvation and then regained it in that scenario, because all you are saying is that as of the moment you made the judgment call, it didn't look good. Finsihing well is not being without any recent sins at the moment of your death. It's having lived a life in Him in which you strived to remain in Him, and always came back to Him if you fell away for a while. This is not an invitation to fall away with the offer of easy return. Rather, it is acknowledging that perseverence involves coming back even when you fail.

[Slug1]

Hi, Slug.

I think you and I agree on this, but I don't go so far as to say a person is 'unsaved' the moment they fall off the wall or the thightrope or the path. I think they have their life ahead to choose to get back up there, or to stay on the saved side altogether. So, I take the long view. You can't properly say someone lost their salvation and then regained it in that scenario, because all you are saying is that as of the moment you made the judgment call, it didn't look good. Finsihing well is not being without any recent sins at the moment of your death. It's having lived a life in Him in which you strived to remain in Him, and always came back to Him if you fell away for a while. This is not an invitation to fall away with the offer of easy return. Rather, it is acknowledging that perseverence involves coming back even when you fail.

I don't take the long view and this is why... should a person "fall" off, or as the Bible seems to call this... turns to error, the Body of Christ has begun to apply Christianese slang words such a "backslide, or backsliding" and some others as well.

Now... there is NOTHING that will remove the LOVE God has for us... EVEN a person who has NEVER been in Christ, they have the same amount of love from God as the one who has been in Christ but, has turned away to error. If ya like the term backsliding, cool.

BAMMMM, hit by a car and killed before they turned AWAY from error and BACK to God, before they asked for forgiveness for their stupidity and return to the world, before repenting, before being restored BACK to relationship in Christ and are abiding again.

So, to take a LONG view... sure, plenty of time to get right WITH God (as the saying goes), receive correction from family/friends, and turn from error and be restored... but that is ONE GAMBLE that I'd not EVER bet on. The world is a fallen place to gamble on and a plane could LITERALLY fall out of the sky and crash on such a person GAMBLING.

Gal 5:16 tells us to WALK in the Spirit and anyone who does this, then steps away, then returns, then steps away... well, how long before they fall under all the DOUBLE-MINDED scriptures and all the context of that type of Christian? Concerning a person who is either called double-minded or lukewarm, is they ANYTHING good at all to be said? Haven't I raised this before

Nope... as a matter of fact, a Christian who is lukewarm will be SPIT OUT of Christ. OSAS will not accept this for two reasons (or was it three?): 1) They believe a person who was "spit out" was not IN Christ in the first place. What they are ignoring is that anyone who was NEVER in Christ, can NEVER get spit BACK out. 2) They simply refuse to accept this scripture's context is ABOUT Christians... even though the context is for the Body of Christ.

So... while we SAY we don't INVITE Christians to fall away, well... we don't have to do any inviting, the OSAS doctrine does ALL the inviting FOR those who believe it.

Perseverance... I hold a stricter value then what you described in your final sentence. Perseverance is HOLDING to and abiding in Christ even WHEN the WORSE that can be happening to a Christian (temptation) is happening and the Christian actually perseveres through it. If the definition of perseverance is to fall, stand, fall stand... that's not persevering, that is being double-minded.

There is NO temptation that is strong enough to cause us NOT to persevere... AS LONG AS, a person holds to Christ (perseveres) and not only SEEKS the escape, but also TAKES the escape that is provided (1 Cor 10:13). "BEARING" that temptation is what PERSEVERING is all about, not fall, stand, fall, stand!

So I guess a defining of what "to fall" means is in order?? Maybe what you are referring to as "falling" is actually "stumbling"?

I am late for work due to traffic and also... when the traffic cleared I was speeding to make up lost time and then got pulled over for speeding. I get to work finally and spill my soda (I don't drink coffee) all over the reports I had prepared the night before at home and then when I'm fed up to the point of exploding, someone makes a negative comment about me arriving late to work... and out slips the *&T$%)(*$&^%%$#*%$)&(, take a breath... (*&^**%&^(&%@##@!*))_.

So is this stumbling or falling?

Such a SIN, would NOT cause a person to FALL off the path (tightrope as an analogy from the other post). This is a situation when a person failed to take the escape and as the temptation pressed against this person, due to not taking the escape... they could not bear it and the anger reached such a point, temptation (thinking all those swear words) became sin when they LET IT ALL OUT verbally.

So... let's make sure we all are on the same sheet of music when it comes to Christianese words such as "fall" or "stumble".

To me and my understanding... to fall means a person has turned to error and stops abiding in Christ, they don't care anymore that they did such an act of sin and drive on and do it the next day too. To me a person who stumbles has not turned to error and due to their seeking forgiveness for the outburst later in the day as they put themselves into prayer before God... does this because they are STILL abiding in Christ.

Make sense?

[mailmandan]

Based on this analogy, a person who continues to abide in Christ all their life, they can dance, hop, run, and skip along that cliff's edge. Can we say the same for a person who turns away and doesn't abide?? The narrow path IS that tightrope and negotiating it while abiding... no problem. Stop abiding... how long before they fall off?

Hi Slug1,

The Greek word meno, which the King James Version translates as "abide," means "remain, continue, stay." I don't believe this refers to some special state of "resting" in Christ that only super saints achieve (and I'm not saying that you do either). Rather, I understand abiding as (remaining, continuing, staying). I believe this is equivalent to persevering in the faith. If we continue in the faith, then we have persevered, we have continued to abide in Christ. Do you believe that everyone who crosses the finish line with the same faith that saved them at the starting line will be saved, even though some believers will have produced more fruit than others and some believers will have become more mature in Christ than others? It sounds to me like in order for us to stop abiding we would have to stop believing.

To me and my understanding... to fall means a person has turned to error and stops abiding in Christ, they don't care anymore that they did such an act of sin and drive on and do it the next day too. To me a person who stumbles has not turned to error and due to their seeking forgiveness for the outburst later in the day as they put themselves into prayer before God... does this because they are STILL abiding in Christ.

So the person who has turned to error and stops abiding in Christ is no longer believing? When you said that such a person doesn't care anymore and they drive on to do it the next day too, this sounds like "willfully sinning" in Hebrews 10:26 and "practicing sin" in Galatians 5:21. "Continuous action." No remorse, no repentance just bring it on. This certainly goes beyond stumbling or messing up and then agonizing over the defeat. Proverbs 24:16 says, For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Would you view the word "fall" here as "to trip, or stumble?" James 3:2 says that we "stumble" in many ways. 2 Peter 1:10 says we shall never "fall" or "stumble." Do you believe that (depending on the context) the word fall or stumble can mean either fall down and get back up - get tripped up, or permanently fall and lose salvation?

We certainly don't want to create an unnecessary fear factor of "everytime you mess up you lose your salvation" and we certainly don't want to create a false sense of security of "just go out and live like the devil because once we have made a profession of faith it doesn't matter how we live."

[Slug1]

It sounds to me like in order for us to stop abiding we would have to stop believing.

Hooah!

So the person who has turned to error and stops abiding in Christ is no longer believing? When you said that such a person doesn't care anymore and they drive on to do it the next day too, this sounds like "willfully sinning" in Hebrews 10:26 and "practicing sin" in Galatians 5:21. "Continuous action." No remorse, no repentance just bring it on. This certainly goes beyond stumbling or messing up and then agonizing over the defeat. Proverbs 24:16 says, For a righteous man may fall seven times And rise again, But the wicked shall fall by calamity. Would you view the word "fall" here as "to trip, or stumble?" James 3:2 says that we "stumble" in many ways. 2 Peter 1:10 says we shall never "fall" or "stumble." Do you believe that (depending on the context) the word fall or stumble can mean either fall down and get back up - get tripped up, or permanently fall and lose salvation?

We certainly don't want to create an unnecessary fear factor of "everytime you mess up you lose your salvation" and we certainly don't want to create a false sense of security of "just go out and live like the devil because once we have made a profession of faith it doesn't matter how we live."

As for your final statement... that is exactly it! On the one extreme there should not be a fear factor that a stumble or "trip" (another Christianese term) up will result in a loss of salvation. On the other extreme, there should not be any living of a lifestyle that by the fruit, is a person living like the devil.

I'm transparent, and if you've frequented many of my posts, you know what I mean. I've been so frustrated with people in my life at times, I trip up. The frustration spins me and gets me weak and if I don't do what I'm supposed to do (surrender), I have reached that point of sin... thus the example above. I know this is a soft area that needs strengthening, satan knows this is a soft spot and does all he can to prevent strengthening. God knows ALL this and thus... I find myself in frustrating situations QUITE often because He's using these times or even moments to teach me and to GET me to do the right thing (surrender) and this is what is "strengthening" me. Believe me, if you had known me personally, you'd of seen a pretty frustrated dude and this was evident in worldly reactions. God HAD to allow this so I'd be changed from a VERY angry person to who I am today... this is all due to His plan in my life and the position He's placed me in the Body of Christ and truly, HOW He utilizes me as well.

Sure seems "fall" can be applied in different ways. Same with "stumble" and "trip" as well. If applied one way they can all mean the same thing. Or any combination in between. For the layman in the pews, especially that babe in Christ who has no Christianese language skills, the process of discipleship such as presenting various scriptures as you posted can help them learn the Christianese language.

I'm in the trenches with those who are lost and having accepted Christ, are new to the Body of Christ... I have to operate on a level WITH them, not above them and as they mature, then adjust accordingly. Fall, means a Christian who once always sought the Lord for help not only does not but WILL not seek help of the Lord and the Parable of the Sower is an excellent help in understanding this sort of "falling" away. Stumble means, "OUCH... LORD, I'm sorry and I ask for forgiveness for my weakness and failure, please help me to stand back up". Those in the trenches have to help newbies in Christ to understand this at such a basic level and as they mature, help them to understand a DEEPER level of meaning that also enables them to EFFECTIVELY apply the Word of God not only in their own lives but also into the lives of others so KNOWING Jesus is at the center of ALL... well, that is what discipleship is all about at the foundational level... hooah?

You see... I'm in a position to be used to provide the knowledge, then teach the skills that a new Christian will utilize to build THEIR house. I don't DO their building... they do. As long as the understanding provided established a firm proper foundation in Christ... as long as further and deeper understanding that I provide is understood, then any given newbie in Christ can build their house and become more skilled as they learn and be mature. Someday, they will be doing the providing and teaching as THEY are used by God to help others.

It's just that when they were brand new... I can't toss them ONLY the blue print and tell them, "Welcome to the Body of Christ... there's the plan, go build!!"

There are some steps they have to be taught first and this is all summed up in a single word: Discipleship

Hmmmm, ok... getting off the soap box

I attended a Pastoral Leadership meeting last night and I'm still excited about what God is leading our church to do as we move to a new community!!