Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[PJW]

Slug 1,
I guess I'm taking a "tunnel vision" approach, because I haven't met the "other side" of your group. Sorry for that.
I'm hoping that the good outnumber the bad, so their conduct will "be a light in the darkness".
A life of holiness is so different than what I see in churches that I visit that I get disgusted quickly at any mention of unholiness being portrayed as the normal condition of Christianity.

[Slug1]

A life of holiness is so different than what I see in churches that I visit that I get disgusted quickly at any mention of unholiness being portrayed as the normal condition of Christianity.

I don't get disgusted, I get fired up and stand up before them and preach a message about how sin will lead them to their destruction and proper discipleship and fearing God, will lead to a life without sin.

In my opinion, to be disgusted leads a person to not help disciple those who are in need of discipleship.

Disgusted... such a word is not fruit of the Spirit so to be disgusted isn't from God. Like I said... I wouldn't be disgusted, I'd ask God what needs to be done to help them.

As I asked... was Paul disgusted with the Corinthians and thus, not help them?

Would you be disgusted with the Corinthians?

[chad]

One thing to remember is that the teaching of righteousness is the meat, not the milk. (Heb 5:13)

IMHO, I would say there are christians who struggle for various reasons. Some include:

1) Being undiscipled (that is they have not been taught properly or shown the correct way. Ignorance, but through no fault of their own)

2) Those who struggle with weakness in the flesh.

3) Then we have others not so strong in faith yet, as others.

Thankfully, we have a high priest (Jesus) who is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and going astray.

^{Heb 5:2 (NIV 84)} “He is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and are going astray, since he himself is subject to weakness.”

Paul encourages us to walk in the spirit, as the Holy spirit is both the spirit of truth and our counselor. As we take up the call to walk in the spirit, God can work in us for his Glory.

Slug 1,
I guess I'm taking a "tunnel vision" approach, because I haven't met the "other side" of your group. Sorry for that.
I'm hoping that the good outnumber the bad, so their conduct will "be a light in the darkness".
A life of holiness is so different than what I see in churches that I visit that I get disgusted quickly at any mention of unholiness being portrayed as the normal condition of Christianity.

[Slug1]

Galatians 4:18 But it is good to be zealous in a good thing always, and not only when I am present with you. 19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you, 20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.

Not all who accept Christ are automatically walking in the Spirit. Scripture clearly shows us that in context, not ALL will never sin from the MOMENT they are in Christ. In time (through discipleship) they will walk in the Spirit and then the lusts of the flesh will be no more.

[PJW]

Slug 1___post 137,
Disgust doesn't entail abandonment.
"And of some have compassion, making a difference: And others save with fear; hating even the garment spootted by the flesh." (Jude 22-23)
There are, it seems, a variety of ways to bring back sinners from the abyss. Each case is different.
I don't know what Paul thought of the Corintians, but I know he "got on their case" heavily and even exhorted, "But them which are without, (out of the body, the church), God judgeth, Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person." (1 Cor 5:13)
Each case has it's best response. In the end, (2 Cor 2:6-7), Paul did urge acceptance of one who did repent: though, I don't know if it was the adulterer or the one going to law before the unjust.
And like Paul, I WOULD be disgusted with the sinners at Corinth, but not to the expulsion of one who does repent.
I've seen people who repent two and three times, but they eventually leave in the middle of the night, but I've also seen one repent and stay.
Paul exhorts, "Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear." (1 Tim 5:20)
Sin is not without penalty. Neither here nor in heaven.

[PJW]

Chad___post 138,
Your point #2 mentions "weakness in the flesh".
We make sure our new people are aware that their "old flesh" has been crucified with Christ at baptism, and has no more power over their life. (Ro 6:4-6, Gal 5:24)
It's not their flesh anymore, it's Gods.
Righteousness is what draws people to God. "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled". (Matt 5:6)
Righteousness IS the milk.
The people drawn to our church are the ones that want to please God, not just to "get a clear conscience" and carry-on as before.
God provides what is necessary for every believer. "And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Eph 4:11-12)

[Grunner]

I've heard some say, that as a Christian... you are not a "sinner", or that you "can't" sin, that Christians can't be called "sinners" at all. That there are NO sinners in the Body of Christ.

Seems that any Christian who is tempted and fails to resist, sins and is thus a sinner and anyone who thinks of themselves as not a sinner... is LYING to themselves.

Anyway... I read through 1 Corinthian chapter five and we find "Christians" that are totally undiscipled"... not undisciplined, but UNdiscipled.

The result of the lack of discipleship sure is about them being undisciplined though.

Can anyone who believes that as a Christian you CAN'T sin and that there is NO sinNER in the Body of Christ... care to explain your understanding?

Paul has to disciple the Corinthians about "holiness" because now that the Corinthians have "accepted" Christ and are in Christ and there is a day that they WILL BE SAVED... he has to fix them first because they are sinners, STILL!!

I also read about the 7 churches in Revelation and sin sure was allot of the reason that caused Jesus to come down hard on them. Not that there are people in those churches who aren't in Christ and are thus "sinners" but that those IN Christ and are FULL member of those churches... sin led to many of the problems that Jesus said, FIX THIS NOW!

So, if the thought process is that there are no SINNERS once people are in Christ... then why did Paul ever have to correct the Corinthians of long list of sins???

I believe that Paul calls himself the "chief of sinners." Can't recall the exact place, but I have a pretty good memory for such things. He is writing as an apostle to the churches and to individuals in his epistles/letters. For someone then to claim that they are no longer sinners is a bit of an awkward thing to say when Paul claims to be a sinner.

However, there is a concept of state and standing in Pauline writings. While the Christian is not perfect, as such, he or she has the standing of being purified (i.e. in God's eyes since God is looking through the lens or filter of Jesus' blood - to use an optical metaphor).
So in reference to state, yes, the Christian is still a sinner. In reference to standing, given Paul's theology, the Christian is sinless.

I could look up references to all of this and if you're really interested, I will.
Hope that helps... from your neighbourhood theologian.

[Colight]

As Christians, no matter how fine of a line we walk we will still have sin.

1 john 1:⁸If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

There is no way for us as children of Adam to NOT have sin.
It is part of our genetic nature.
We can not escape it while we still live in our body of sin.

[chad]

There is the word and the work of the spirit. Just because someone can quote from the bible, it does not mean that it is the work of the spirit. The power of the word is IN "Jesus", it is in the work of the Holy Spirit. Unless we are IN Christ and Christ is working IN us, then we can not over come the flesh or any weakness we have of the flesh.

Hebrews writes we do have one who understands the weakness in the flesh (That is Jesus - Heb 4:15) and can sympathize with our weakness and is able to deal gently with those who are ignorant and going astray (Heb 5:2).

Chad___post 138,
Your point #2 mentions "weakness in the flesh".
We make sure our new people are aware that their "old flesh" has been crucified with Christ at baptism, and has no more power over their life. (Ro 6:4-6, Gal 5:24)
It's not their flesh anymore, it's Gods.
Righteousness is what draws people to God. "Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled". (Matt 5:6)
Righteousness IS the milk.
The people drawn to our church are the ones that want to please God, not just to "get a clear conscience" and carry-on as before.
God provides what is necessary for every believer. "And He gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Eph 4:11-12)

[Slug1]

Ya know... if a Christian couldn't sin, then why are instructions such as this in the Bible?

Matthew 18:¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ ¹⁷ And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

[DDGresham1]

I don't get disgusted, I get fired up and stand up before them and preach a message about how sin will lead them to their destruction and proper discipleship and fearing God, will lead to a life without sin

I hate to tell you but all men sin...even Christians. We may sin less but we still sin. To think of a sin is the same as commiting it. Ever see a car or house you want and think that you would like to have it? Sin. There is so much going on in the mind that you probably aren't even aware of some sins. I know there will be a lot of disagreements to this post but it's the truth. Christians sin much less than others but they do sin.

[Colight]

I don't get disgusted, I get fired up and stand up before them and preach a message about how sin will lead them to their destruction and proper discipleship and fearing God, will lead to a life without sin

I hate to tell you but all men sin...even Christians. We may sin less but we still sin. To think of a sin is the same as commiting it. Ever see a car or house you want and think that you would like to have it? Sin. There is so much going on in the mind that you probably aren't even aware of some sins. I know there will be a lot of disagreements to this post but it's the truth. Christians sin much less than others but they do sin.

Actually from being around Christians..
They sin way more than the unbeliever and their sins are much worse, that being the mental attitude sins...

Prov 6

16These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.


Most Unbelievers don't have many sins of PRIDE, Gossip, lying, Envy, self righteousness.
Remember in scripture it was the lovely people of the temple that screamed the loudest for Christ to be Killed.

[PJW]

Grand Masters, Senior Members, Administrators, Members,
You all have one thing in common. You are all defenders of sin. I bet Jesus isn’t happy with that.
How come you don’t know what happens when you are born again? Why can’t you realize that repentance from sin, (turning from sin), is a true possibility? Why are you still sinning if you are in Christ? Why do you still sin if the old man was crucified, buried, and raised a new creature with Jesus Christ? Why do you profess Christianity, (I guess), but serve sin? Why do you still serve dead affections and lusts? Why do you bring forth evil fruit?
Why don’t you love God and Jesus and your neighbor more than yourselves? Why have you elevated your wants above the commandments of God almighty?
Why don’t you make Jesus your life example instead of the falsely accused Paul?
Why do you hate God when He has made a way to live without sin?
All my previous posts have included plenty of supporting scripture to support “life without sin”, but you choose to argue against obedience to God.
Why?

[DDGresham1]

Slug 1___post 130,
You seem to be part of a gray church instead of a white or black church. "Lukewarm" it seems.
If "they" sin, "they" are servants of sin. (Jo 8:34)
No man can serve two masters, they will love the one and hate the other. (Matt 6:24) "They" are holding onto a delusion. And your support of that lifestyle will be your downfall.
Turn from sin: quit making excuses for those that choose sin. They will be judged for their traitorous sins. Be careful that you're not sucked into their unbelief.
You can't be a parttime Christian. Sin does prove that your not a lover of God.

Occasionally losing focus and sinning in the mind is not being a "servant of sin" There has been plenty of scripture to show that sins of the mind can and do occur to believers on occasion. No one is saying that Christians go out and sin every day. I am saying that it happens on a rare occasion to the true believer and that they ask for forgiveness and turn from it. Maybe you've gone EVERY SINGLE DAY since you were saved without sinning but you would be the rare bird. You claim to have supported your argument with scripture but I've seen plenty of scripture that demonstrates that true Christians do rarely sin. No one is saying to revel in sin or to sin daily.

[PJW]

Jesus said, "Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." Then He said, "...Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32, 34)
The truth will free you from committing sin. This scripture is the yardstick of all doctrines.