Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[DDGresham1]

Jesus said, "Ye shall know the trith and the truth shall make you free." Then He said, "...Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32, 34)
The truth will free you from committing sin. This scripture is the yardstick of all doctrines.

First of all this is ONE piece of scripture and does not take all that has been said on the subject as a whole. It's not the "yardstick of all doctrines." If a person sins, at the time of that sin they are servants of sin. That doesn't mean they turn from God and lose faith. It means they served sin briefly for a moment. The disciples weren't perfect. They doubted Christ often which goes against Christs two commandments: Love God with all you are and love people. Most Christians grow in Christ throughout life. Again you are ignoring plenty of scripture and using one line and in my opinion aren't even interpretting it accurately. You accuse others of "ignoring" scripture yet when good scripture to demonstrate that believers can and do sin you ignore it. ALL of the disciples denied Christ when he was taken away in chains. What happened to their perfection in the face of accusers? When they denied Christ they LIED.

[PJW]

Sorry it took this long to get back, I hadn't noticed the page turn to eleven.

[PJW]

You make it seem like you can serve two masters, but Jesus said "No man can serve two masters, he will love the one and hate the other..." (Matt 6:24)
The apostles didn't have the Holy Ghost while Christ was still alive. Thats why they sinned. We have been allowed by God to partake in Jesus' crucifixion, killing our old "body of sin" and being raised as new creatures. (Ro 6:3-6) Sons of God born of a holy root don't bring forth evil fruit. (Matt 7:15-20)

[DDGresham1]

No, they "believed" and "followed" Christ. The Holy Spirit is a teacher. It doesn't come and keep us from sinning. It points out our sins and our faulty, earthly thinking. Sinning once in a year is not "serving" another master all year. You are serving another master while commiting that sin though. Nowhere in the bible does it say that once they received the holy spirit that the disciples wouldn't sin.

[DDGresham1]

True and False Prophets
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. "

This is speaking of prophets, not every day believers. I have seen "good trees" bring forth bad fruit but only in small amounts. I have seen "bad trees" bring for small amounts of good fruit but not much. Do you really know of an orange tree that NEVER brings forth one piece of bad fruit? You have to think about what he is saying and not take it so literally. Even good fruit trees bring forth a rotten piece of fruit on occasion but as A WHOLE they bring forth 99% good fruit. These are parables that you are taking to mean exactly what they say. There is not one fruiting tree on this planet that doesn't bring forth bad fruit on occasion, even though this parable states it's so.

[DDGresham1]

9 And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt:
10 "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 "The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
13 "But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14 "I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."

The first man no doubt "paid" for his sins via proper sacrafices but his heart was in the wrong place. He wasn't humble. He thought "I am without fault." Christ showed that he was not as right with God as the man that stated "I am a sinner." This is pretty clear what Christ is getting at; no man is ever sinless. All men need God and need to maintain that focus but will be tempted in some way and will need God's forgiveness again. The difference is that Christians don't revel in sin. They don't like it and they don't do it nearly as much. Wordly people LIKE SIN and commit it MUCH MORE.

[DDGresham1]

1 Timothy 1:15


"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst."

In no translation does it say "of whom I WAS the worst." Paul knew that to live a perfect life after being saved meant that he didn't need God. God told him that "my grace is sufficient for you." If we are absolutely sinless with no struggle after being saved we don't need God...WE GOT IT MADE AND CAN JUST SKATE THROUGH LIFE.

[PJW]

If you smoke one cigarette a year, you are a smoker. Why aren't you a sinner if you sin once a year?
Why is the Holy Ghost able to show you all (or some) of your faults, but not powerful enough to keep you from sin? Paul wrote, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Sin is a choice you either deny or embrace. Jesus said, "Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23) These people thought they were serving God, but they weren't: were they?

[chad]

Paul was an Apostle as well, and even he admitted he sinned, after conversion. I think it would be safe to say that Jesus was the only one who did not sin while on earth and after he was raised.

1 Timothy 1:15


"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst."

In no translation does it say "of whom I WAS the worst." Paul knew that to live a perfect life after being saved meant that he didn't need God. God told him that "my grace is sufficient for you." If we are absolutely sinless with no struggle after being saved we don't need God...WE GOT IT MADE AND CAN JUST SKATE THROUGH LIFE.

[PJW]

If you are so sure that sinful men are going to get into heaven, why do you even waste your time with me?
To think a man can be a non-sinner without the help and protection of God is ludicrous. My life is not my own, I have been killed and Jesus lives in me. Thank God. I can't do anything without Him, and if I "go astray" then I am without God.
Paul said, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." (Ro 8:2) The law of sin is what he was afraid of and powerless to stop, while practicing Judaism in Romans 7. If he is free from what caused his sin, why would he still be a sinner, in 1 Tim?
As for your "false prophets", any one espousing Christianity is a prophet. The ones that seek to embolden, and justify the disobedient are not prophets of God.

[DDGresham1]

We are free from the law as in we are no longer under it's judgement. Christ died for our sins. It doesn't mean that we no longer sin. A believer is not a prophet. John the Baptist was a prophet. He was not a regular believer. There is a difference. Just like there is a difference between a believer and a non believer. A believer hates sin and hates when it happens. A non believer couldn't care less and is not concerned. A believer sins rarely (I notice how you blew by my reference to Paul saying I "AM" the greatest sinner). A non believer sins daily and doesn't care and often isn't aware. Look, you can be dishonest here if you want but I gurantee you sin. I don't know if it is an angry thought, a lustful thought, a white lie, liking and wanting what another person has, whatever. You may not even be aware of it when you do it but at some point you either have or will sin after being saved. Why do I bother? Because it's inaccurate to say that a Christian never sins and you have been presented with 5-10 verses that indicate this but you are so set in your thought process that you misiterpret and fail to apply logic to scripture. That, or you truly are the rare sinless Christian and think that the rest of us should be the same. Should a Christian sin often or not care when they do? No, but most of them will sin after being saved. It's why Paul said I AM a sinner. It's why Christ said that the man proclaiming he was a sinner was better off than the guy that thought he wasn't and if you read back through this thread you will see plenty of evidence to support this. Santification can take a lifetime.

[DDGresham1]

Excerpt on the subject:

But, some will say, does it not say in the Bible that "whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for his seed remaineth in him and he cannot sin because he is born of God?"- I John 3:9. Yes, it does, but please note this verse says that this is true of every believer ; it is true of everyone who has been born of God. Now we all know that sinless perfection is not true of every Christian, yet this verse says it is true. What is the explanation? Simply this: Every believer is born of God and at his new birth he receives God's life and nature, and those, of course, are sinless. However, by natural birth the believer received a life and nature from his earthly human parents which are sinful. Hence, every Christian has within him his old sinful life and nature. The one he received by his natural birth; the other by his spiritual birth. Both exist in the same body, so that he is capable to do things that please God and also capable of sinning. It all depends on which life has the upper hand in his daily experience.

Yes, there is no question whatever but that a believer in Jesus can and does sin, What happens when he does sin?

"If we sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." I John 2:1. Rev. 12:10 shows that court is in session in God's presence 24 hours out of every 24. Satan is the accuser- the prosecuting attorney- charging the believer with sin when he commits it. Our Lord is our Advocate, the Lawyer for the defense. If I sin, the Lord can only plead guilty on my behalf, for I am guilty. He has no plea on my behalf, but He has a valid one on His side. He died for that sin long ago; when I accepted Him as my Saviour, all my sins were purged away in His precious blood. That's what Christ pleads for me in God's court. He says as it were: Yes, this brother is guilty, but his guilt was paid for long ago at the Cross. And so the case is thrown out of court.

But, I can hear some say, if that is so, then the believer can go ahead and sin all he likes, for nothing will happen to him. Wait a minute; you're wrong on two counts! One- the believer does not like to sin; he hates sin; two- if he sins and does not care, something will happen to him.

[PJW]

"For by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20) If you sin you are still under the law. "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners... (1 Tim 1:9)
If Paul is still sinning, why does he close his letter to Timothy with, "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to the wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the DOCTRINE WHICH IS AFTER GODLINESS,..." (1 Tim 6:3) And, "But GODLINESS with contentment is great gain." (1 Tim 6:6) If Paul is still sinning, he is really quite the hypocrit.
If you hated your sins, you would stop doing them.
"For the Lord knoweth how to deliver the GODLY out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished." (2 Peter 2:9)

[DDGresham1]

"Many will say unto me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23) These people thought they were serving God, but they weren't: were they?

Yes, exactly. They thought "I am without sin" "I am perfect as I do all of these things." They weren't following Christs commandments; Love God and Love people. They were following "the law" and had no real love for others. They thought "I have been saved and am sinless" instead of "how can I love and help God and others?" They were like the first man in Jesus' parable about the two men at the temple; He thought he was so righteous and without sin yet he didn't humble himself and profess that he believed but was still yet a sinner. Two believers went to that temple; One that thought he was perfect and one that knew he still fell short of God and was a sinner. Christ saw the man that said he was a still yet a sinner and said that the prayer he prayed was more righteous. Why? Because Christ new that both BELIEVERS (ie men/women that would go to a temple) sinned and again nowhere does it say that the holy spirit moving within you makes you sinless. Christs sacrafice freed us from the JUDGEMENT of sin. It didn't mean we would no longer sin. It meant we would have a new spirit, a new awareness. We can never be free of the earthly mindset that we have. It will take some a lifetime of sanctification to overcome this yet they still believe. I do think that any true believer will "turn from sin" as in they will not like it, not want it and will be disgusted when they do it.

[DDGresham1]

"For by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Rom 3:20) If you sin you are still under the law. "Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners... (1 Tim 1:9)
If Paul is still sinning, why does he close his letter to Timothy with, "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to the wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the DOCTRINE WHICH IS AFTER GODLINESS,..." (1 Tim 6:3) And, "But GODLINESS with contentment is great gain." (1 Tim 6:6) If Paul is still sinning, he is really quite the hypocrit.
If you hated your sins, you would stop doing them.
"For the Lord knoweth how to deliver the GODLY out of temptation, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgement to be punished." (2 Peter 2:9)

A guy that drives a bus every day is a bus driver. A guy that drives a bus once or twice a year is a guy that drives a bus on occasion. They are two different things. Godliness with contentment is great gain. That says nothing about sin. The lawless and disobedient and ungodly and sinners are people that sin EVERY SINGLE DAY...DAY AFTER DAY and DON'T CARE AT ALL THAT THEY DO IT. And to answer your question; No, a guy that smokes a cigarette once a year isn't a smoker. He's a guy that isn't thinking, tries a cig and goes the rest of the year without one. A smoker smokes a lot...a whole lot and he likes it...he wants to smoke...he thinks it's fun...he thinks it's fun when others smoke too...these two people are not the same.