Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[Gettheebhindme]

Lets step from the Old Covenant through the Law to the New Covenant through Jesus. We're talking about Christians.

NONE of the people you're talking about are Christians and during that period of time, none of them COULD ever be Christians.

Besides... if anyone murdered a person back then, they were killed, NOT FORGIVEN.

So let's keep the topic about Christians... OK?

Shall we forget the Ten Commandments?

Shall we dismiss the creation?

Mat 5 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished

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True Christians know God through all his words.

[DDGresham1]

Here we go again...one by one.

What impossible things did Jesus command us to do?
Love? Obey? Stay free from sin?
If you do the first two, you accomplish the third.

Yes, but you will not always refrain from sin. There will be times that you lose focus on God and slip. It means that AT THAT MOMENT you weren't loving God. We've given you many verses to show you this.

To the rest of the defenders of sin, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin, for His seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God.” (1 Jo 3:9)

Yes, our Godly spirit does not sin. Our earthly flesh can on occasion. Even if this weren't true, again, this is ONE verse and we've presented MANY that would indicate that Christians do indeed sin.

“A good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” (Matt 6:18)

Again, even a good tree brings forth the occasional bad peice of fruit. Generally it's fruit is good. I've never seen a tree bring forth all good fruit all the time.

“Him hath God exalted with His right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are His witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given TO THEM THAT OBEY HIM.” (Acts 5:31-32)

Yes, "obeying" doesn't mean "perfection" You are confusing the two. An ACCIDENTAL and UNINTENTIONAL slip is not disobedience. That's why we are to be so forgiving toward each other and why God is forgiving of us.


Was John lying in his letter, about God’s seed not being able to bring forth evil fruit?

No and a rare sin by accident isn't and evil person.



A hundred and ninety posts, mostly excusing sin, and making excuses for the haters of God. By rationalizing the sins of “the world”, you make my God seem like an unfair tyrant who is unjust to throw the disobedient into the lake of fire. But “the world” has had fair warning. Sodom and Gomorrha, and the world before the flood are the template for those thinking that God won’t punish ALL the evil doers.

Those cities are not Christians...neither is the world...those cities and the world sin continuously and revel in it...there is a difference.

Jesus made a way for us to get rid of the flesh and its’ nature. Those that hold on to the past are destined for damnation. But by turning from every part of their wickedness, (repentance), and baptism into Christ, and His death, you can start a life that glorifies the High Priest of my profession. A life that is pleasing to God, ALL THE TIME. Or, you can keep defending sin, and keep racking up points with satan. But redeeming those points will profit you nothing.

No one is defending sin or saying it's right. We have given you more than enough verses (if you are bothering to read them) that point to the fact that a Christian can and does sin. Stop ignoring the larger amount of evidence and posting the same three responses over and over. It's not proving anything.

[PJW]

So, Jesus was lying when he compared trees to people and fruit to sin? You're saying good people bring forth evil fruit, in spite of my Lord's words?
If it was true that Christians do sin, why did Paul and company even bother telling the early (and present) church to "abstain from all appearance of evil" if they knew they wouldn't obey? By following Paul and John and Peter, we are given the patterns of behaviour to keep us from temptation and sin.
You are defending sin, and calling Jesus a liar. Where are the forum police?!!

[PJW]

If Christians can go back-and-forth from Christian to Law breaker and back to Christian, Why did Jesus even come?
“The Mosaic Law couldn’t make anything perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did.” (Heb 7:19)
The Jews had atonements for sin, so was Jesus’ death only to save the sacrificial animals? It would seem so, as your people are still stiff necked and hard hearted. Disobedient, hateful, idolaters that won’t obey God.
BUT, Jesus came so we could experience the circumcision done without hands. (Col 2:11-13) Casting away the sinful flesh! Remember, “If your eye offends you, pluck it out.” We can now put ALL the flesh to death by repentance, and bury it with Christ in baptism, from whence we are raised with Christ as NEW CREATURES. (Ro 6:3-7)
Different from before! Born of God’s seed.
Why resist? Unless of course, you love your sin more than you love God .

[DDGresham1]

We'll go over this as many times as it takes to get you to understand it.

So, Jesus was lying when he compared trees to people and fruit to sin? You're saying good people bring forth evil fruit, in spite of my Lord's words?

Again for what I believe is now the fourth time: Good trees bring forth good fruit most of the time but not every single piece of fruit from them is good. Even a good tree gets a piece of bad fruit pruined off on occasion.

If it was true that Christians do sin, why did Paul and company even bother telling the early (and present) church to "abstain from all appearance of evil" if they knew they wouldn't obey? By following Paul and John and Peter, we are given the patterns of behaviour to keep us from temptation and sin.
You are defending sin, and calling Jesus a liar. Where are the forum police?!

We've been over this already:

If Christians can no longer sin, then why does Paul write to Christians in Corinthians 8:9-12 about sinning by placing stumbling blocks for fellow believers?

And in James 2:1-12 where the author writes to believers not to show favouritism, for if you do, then you sin.
If Christians can no longer sin, then why even write about sinning in Cor 8:9-12 and James 2:1-12?

and here:

1 Cor 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. 2I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. 3For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

This describes believers as taking part in "envying, and strife, and divisions" so they were clearly sinning in that sense, right? Does Paul say they are not Christians or that they have lost their salvation because of their sins? No! He still calls them "babes in Christ". They are Christian, but immature Christians. They need to mature. But just because they sinned doesn't mean they wanted to sin and did not want to grow. They needed time to mature. I'm glad it was Paul dealing with them instead of you because it seems you would have said they could not be Christians at all because of their behavior. I'm glad Paul wasn't judgmental like that.

There are no forum police here to defend you because your logic is flawed and your defense of your position is weak. You lack understanding of God's word. You take a parable and think it to be absolutely literal as if a good tree would never bring forth an occasional piece of bad fruit. You are misleading those coming to Christ. What you are teaching is false and is not supported by scripture. I suppose at this point you will reference the parable of the fruit tree again.

[DDGresham1]

If Christians can go back-and-forth from Christian to Law breaker and back to Christian, Why did Jesus even come?

To pay for our sin and to give us a change of heart via the holy spirit, not to institute an absolutely perfect human other than himself.

“The Mosaic Law couldn’t make anything perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did.” (Heb 7:19)

Yes, Christ was perfect. We are not.


BUT, Jesus came so we could experience the circumcision done without hands. (Col 2:11-13) Casting away the sinful flesh! Remember, “If your eye offends you, pluck it out.” We can now put ALL the flesh to death by repentance, and bury it with Christ in baptism, from whence we are raised with Christ as NEW CREATURES. (Ro 6:3-7)
Different from before! Born of God’s seed.
Why resist? Unless of course, you love your sin more than you love God .

Yes, before I came to know Christ I was a boozer, a womanizer, a murder (if you count going to combat, which I do), a lier, a thief, a covetor, an idolater, you name it I had done it and I liked it and I wanted as much of it as I could get. Now, I detest every sin that their is. I flee from it. I hate it. I will not tolerate it even in my mind BUT on a very RARE occasion, I am taken by surprise by the world as I am still "drinking the milk" that Paul mentioned...I am a relatively new believer and came from such great sin that I struggle at times to not accidentally sin. For instance: I tell my niece that she looks pretty even though she wants braces to get her teeth straightened. It's a lie. Her teeth are HORRIBLE but I tell her that because it's the right thing to do yet it is STILL sin. It is a LIE. I told a woman in the grocery store tonight not to hurry to get out of my way that "I could wait" and that I was in "no hurry" because she had a small child with her and where I am from you are to be especially nice to ladies and children. It was a LIE. I WAS in a hurry and wanted to be home doing my chores instead of waiting on her to get out of my way. Those were just TODAY! I used to be WORSE. I would see a young lady in a bikini top and shorts on that would make Daisy Duke blush and my mind would go to the wrong place and the holy spirit reminded me of what was right but it was STILL sin. Now, you can argue all day long that I am not saved but I tell you this: I am a changed man. Do you know that I used to LIKE combat? I liked the fact that I could kill men and wanted to kill as many as I could! It was like a game to me (and others...keep in mind I am not speaking of innocents here...at least I had that going for me). I used to LIKE to have relations with women that I hardly knew! Now if you asked me to do either one I would RUN THE OTHER WAY. I just want those that are struggling to understand what Christ was saying and it wasn't that we would go the rest of our lives living absolutely flawless lives.

[PJW]

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (Jo:19-21)
“ And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voicespeaking unto me, And saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul why persecutest thou me? It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And I said, Who art thou, Lord? I am Jesus whom thou persecutes. But rise and stand upon thy feet:for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee. Delivering thee from the people, and from theGentiles, unto whom now I send thee, to open their eyes, AND TO TURN THEM FROM DARKNESS to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faiththat is in me.” (Acts 26:14-18)

[DDGresham1]

“And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be manifest, that they are wrought in God.” (Jo:19-21)

Yes, when you sin on a rare occasion you are turned from the light of God...you don't stay turned. They are unintentional and are called "msitakes." Nowhere in this passage does it state that you will not sin after salvation. In the scripture I listed above in red it does say that early believers were still yet carnal and sinners. Again, you are reading into what scripture is saying you are adding what you think because you have been taught this way. I used to love darkness as I mentioned above. Now I love light. I love my wife but occasionally do her a wrong...does this one rare wrong mean that I don't love her? Of course not. I suppose now you'll tell me that since I have wronged my wife on a rare occasion that I don't love my wife!

[PJW]

It's obvious that you have come a long way, but someone has put up a road block to your absolute obedience to God. Because (it seems) I'm the first to tell you that you can live a "perfect" life before God, you do all you can to discredit my faith. Kudos to you in respect that you defend the faith you have, but there is more than what you have been told.
God is coming back for a perfect, unstained, absolute virgin church, and the "churches" you (and I) have been exposed to are corrupted and have nothing to do with godliness. If they were of God, they would root out all the sin that has overwhelmed the "world churches". God's church is not of this world. We are in the world but we are not of this world.
Don't get caught up with the lovers of darkness. Turn to the light. Reach out for God and He will reach out for you, I promise.

[DDGresham1]

If I didn't love God and people I wouldn't even be here. God will come back to an absolutely clean church: The church that is full of believers that have had all of their sins forgiven via the perfect sacrafice; Jesus Christ, the only sacrafice that can atone for all sin past, present and future. Revel in sin like you did in the past and you won't make it. Make the occasional mistake and you will. That's the difference. You should sin less and less as you mature from "milk" to "meat."

[PJW]

"For if we sin willfully (the only kind of sin) after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb 10:26-27)
"But we are not of them who draw back into perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

[Slug1]

PJW... what is "grace and mercy" as you understand those two characters of Jesus?

[glad4mercy]

"For if we sin willfully (the only kind of sin) after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins. But a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb 10:26-27)
"But we are not of them who draw back into perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

My friend, this verse does not mean that if we commit one single act of sin after being converted that we are hopelessly lost. It means if we continue to sin presumptuously and turn away from Christ then there remains no more sacrifice for sin, because His is the only sacrifice that takes away sins. Regarding whether or not true Christians ever sin at all, please read the following passage.

Galatians 2: 11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed . 12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come , he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.14But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews ?

Would you say that the actions of Peter and Barnabas were sinful in this passage? This was after the day of Pentecost.

So you see, a Christian may stumble, but the difference is that a real Christian will not remain in their sins, they will repent of them, confess them, receive cleansing, and get back up and run the race instead of lying there in the mud.

[Arrow]

It IS possible to sin and be a Christian

[Slug1]

It IS possible to sin and be a Christian

Yeah... pretty much all the Apostles set that example and Paul was completely transparent about it too.