Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[John146]

John146___post256,
All sin is willful. Come up with one “accidental” sin. But read James 1:14-15, first.

Again, you did not specifically address what I said. Why is that? If all sin is willful then how do you explain the following passage:

Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

If all sin is willful then how would it be possible for Paul to ever have sinned while doing what he hated and didn't want to do? You say all sin is willful but you have absolutely no scripture to back that up. You can't just make claims like that without being able to back them up with scripture. James 1:14-15 does not say that all sin is willful. You're not recognizing that our will and our flesh are two different things. Paul explained that in Romans 7. We can want/will to do something but our flesh can sometimes have its way instead. If the flesh has its way it doesn't necessarily mean we wanted it to. That's what Paul explains in Romans 7 and what he touches on in Gal 5:16-17 as well.

The answer to “Are babes in Christ, in Christ? Only if they are in Christ. Paul said, in my own words, “I can’t talk to you as spiritual, but as carnal, even as unlearned newbies who don’t know any better.”
While in sin, they are not in Christ. You can’t be carnal in Christ.

Again, he said they were "babes in Christ". That means they were "in Christ" but were immature. You are trying to tell me they were not "in Christ" at all, which is a direct contradiction of what Paul indicated. Your view does not allow such a concept as a newborn, immature Christian who begins to grow once they are born of the Spirit. But that concept is clearly taught in scripture. When we are born again we are not born as fully spiritually mature Christians. We have to grow into fully mature Christians and that takes time because it takes time to be taught things by the Holy Spirit.

The Corinthians had “left their first love”. Paul was bringing them back from the abyss to Christ. If not for Paul, they were done for.
John146___post257,
We can’t be sinless “by ourselves”. I gave “my” life away that Jesus could live in this temple.
See John 15:13, Luke 9:23, Mark 8:34, Matt 16:24. And John 12:25. “He that loveth his life shall lose it: and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.” I hated my life and had it crucified as per Romans 6:3-7.

Do you believe God does everything for you or do you believe you have some responsibility to make an effort to be sinless while He helps you? If the latter then how much of your supposed sinlessness would you attribute to yourself and your own efforts?

[John146]

Romans 7:15-20, Paul is talking about his "old" self as evidenced by his "that is , in my flesh" distinction. Paul ended his monologue with verse 23 and, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the "law of sin" which is in my members." However, in Romans 8:2, he says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the "law of sin" and death. That which he fought against "while in the flesh" has no power over him, now that he walks after the Spirit and Not the flesh.

Whether or not he was talking about his old self is beside the point. The point is that, even if he was talking about his old self before becoming a Christian, he was still talking about committing sin that was not willful sin. Sin that he hated and didn't want to do. So, that passage proves that there is such thing as unwillful sin. That's the point. And you deny that despite Paul clearly indicating that he had, at some point, sinned despite it being what he hated and didn't want to do. You are denying that it's even possible for anyone to sin unwillfully, but Rom 7:15-20 proves otherwise.

[PJW]

DaniH___post267,
"For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)
Those in Christ are not afraid of judgement, as we have already "been paid the wages of sin". (Ro 6:23) Death, at baptism, is where "my" life ended.
"And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (1 Peter 4:18)
I'm worried that those who call themselves sinners are going to miss out on the rewards promised to the righteous, so I continue, on your behalf.
Everybody will be judged. Good and bad.
You see judgement as something to be feared. I don't.
"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgement: because as He is , so are we in this world." "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." (1 Jo 4:17-18)
Again I say, turn from sin and darkness and turn to God and light.

[PJW]

Slug1___post 268,
My brothers, 1) don't drink coffee, 2) wouldn't waste money on something unnecessary while unemployed, 3)don't cuss, 4)coffee doesn't settle nerves, it's a stimulant, 5) my brothers don't get angry at inanimate objects.
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let everyone be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: (James 1:19)
These are the kind of scriptures that my brothers adhere to.
"IF" a "brother" sins, he has either released what has always been there but hidden, or, if he doesn't repent, has announced his departure. He can't be a sinneer and a Christian at the same time.
The "sinners" don't like to hang around with those that have the Holy Ghost. They seek out "churches" where everyone sins.
You say no one can be without sin. So, to be in "your" truth you must be a sinner.
Jesus said. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Then Jesus said, "Verily, verily, whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32, 34) There is no sin in truth.
My "brothers and I have the same Father. No sinner is a brother to God's children.
We do fight to retain the few who have left, and welcomed back some who have been gone for months, but it takes a long time to re-establish their credibility.
I will never be able to sin again as a part of the Vine that is Christ. I can choose to leave. I Won't.

[PJW]

Knowing that you must love God above everything else and love your neighbor as yourself is instant knowledge.
All your examples are choices. Do, or not do.
It seems like your inventing things to offend God with. How about taking responsibility for your soul, instead of finding more faults to encounter.

[Dani H]

You see judgement as something to be feared. I don't.

Umnooooo.

I certainly do not fear God's judgment. Not even a little bit.

Matter of fact, I love His judgment! Because He always judges righteously! We should all welcome the Lord's judgment into our lives wholeheartedly! I'm with David on that one.

Where you getting the idea from that I fear it? Do you assume that of everyone?

[PJW]

Noeb___post270,
Best question ever!!!
Most of Romans 8 speaks the answer, but verses 3-17 are the core.
I'm gonna paraphrase, v3)What the Mosaic Law couldn't do because of the "flesh", (fleshly, lusting nature of man), God did do by sending Jesus. (That was, living the Mosaic Law perfectly while in "the skin".
4) So that the righteousness of the Mosaic Law could be accomplished by those who walk aftr the Spirit of God, instead of their fleshly lusts.
5) Those in the "flesh" mind the things of this world. Those in the Spirit mind the things of God.
6) To be carnally minded,(lusting), is a life dead to trespasses and sins. Spiritually minded people lead a life of peace, alive unto God.
7) The "fleshly-carnal" mind is the enemy of what God wants. That sort of mind can't adhere to God's wishes.
8) So those lusters can't please God.
9) But we (the repentant) are not in the "flesh", but in the Spirit, if, in fact, God has given the Holy Ghost to you. Anyone without the Holy Ghost is not of God.
10) If you have the Holy Ghost, your flesh is dead because of your old sins. But if you have the Holy Ghost, you've been re-born because you sought righteousness.
11) But if you have the Holy Ghost, God has made your body alive from the trespasses and sins by the Holy Ghost that is in you.
12)So we don't need to war after the things worldly men war after.
13)For if you follow fleshly desires, you shall die, (the second death), but if you keep the old lusts dead by the Holy Ghost, you shall live.
14) For all who are led by the Holy Ghost are sons of God!!!!
15) We don't have to fear the Mosaic Law anymore, but we have the Spirit of adoption, so we can call God, Abba. (Daddy)
16) The Holy Ghost testifies with our soul that we are God's chidren.
17) Children of God are His heirs. Just like Jesus is an heir: if we suffer with Jesus, that we may receive the reward with Jesus.
We suffer with Jesus at baptism, when we are crucified with Christ, as Romans 6 points out. 1 Peter 4:1 also speaks of suffering with Christ
Hope I was a help.

[PJW]

Dani H, Are you a non-sinner?

[Noeb]

Noeb___post270,
Best question ever!!!
Most of Romans 8 speaks the answer, but verses 3-17 are the core.
I'm gonna paraphrase, v3)What the Mosaic Law couldn't do because of the "flesh", (fleshly, lusting nature of man), God did do by sending Jesus. (That was, living the Mosaic Law perfectly while in "the skin".
4) So that the righteousness of the Mosaic Law could be accomplished by those who walk aftr the Spirit of God, instead of their fleshly lusts.
5) Those in the "flesh" mind the things of this world. Those in the Spirit mind the things of God.
6) To be carnally minded,(lusting), is a life dead to trespasses and sins. Spiritually minded people lead a life of peace, alive unto God.
7) The "fleshly-carnal" mind is the enemy of what God wants. That sort of mind can't adhere to God's wishes.
8) So those lusters can't please God.
9) But we (the repentant) are not in the "flesh", but in the Spirit, if, in fact, God has given the Holy Ghost to you. Anyone without the Holy Ghost is not of God.
10) If you have the Holy Ghost, your flesh is dead because of your old sins. But if you have the Holy Ghost, you've been re-born because you sought righteousness.
11) But if you have the Holy Ghost, God has made your body alive from the trespasses and sins by the Holy Ghost that is in you.
12)So we don't need to war after the things worldly men war after.
13)For if you follow fleshly desires, you shall die, (the second death), but if you keep the old lusts dead by the Holy Ghost, you shall live.
14) For all who are led by the Holy Ghost are sons of God!!!!
15) We don't have to fear the Mosaic Law anymore, but we have the Spirit of adoption, so we can call God, Abba. (Daddy)
16) The Holy Ghost testifies with our soul that we are God's chidren.
17) Children of God are His heirs. Just like Jesus is an heir: if we suffer with Jesus, that we may receive the reward with Jesus.
We suffer with Jesus at baptism, when we are crucified with Christ, as Romans 6 points out. 1 Peter 4:1 also speaks of suffering with Christ
Hope I was a help.

Thanks PJW. This part of verse 3 was mainly what I was hoping you'd point out.
"God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh"
If you ask people what walking in the Spirit means you get different opinions, none of which ever include the answer Paul gave here. The law specifically is Christ crucified, because
1) those in Christ (as verse 1 states "in Christ") have also been crucified
2) the believer must believe they were crucified in order to not walk after (follow) the flesh, and are then walking after (following) their Spirit baptism into Christ, meaning they died and were raises like Christ (Romans 6).

Verse 1 makes a statement

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Why is there no longer a judgement to those in Christ, who also walk in Him? They overcome sin. That's the context and what the following verses in the chapter are all about. Not to mention why the context starts way back in chapter 5 (easily before).
Verses 2 and 3 begin with "For" which means "because of" or read better here because. So
1 There is no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit
2 because the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

How does that work? How does that happen?

3 because what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

If anyone needs further proof, why does it say God put a judgement on sin through His Son?

4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

When we walking through life believing and understanding we died with Christ and were raised a new creature and no longer have to sin, temptations are powerless. Why? Because God made a law. That law says when you have the eyes of your understanding enlightened to the mystery of God in Christ and believe it, then you overcome the sin, fulfilling the righteousness that is in the law, which could not be done until man was killed and rasied anew. The law of the Spirit (that baptized us into the body of Christ) says the solution to our continuing to sin is to crucifiy us with Christ and give us power when we believe we are dead to sin and alive to God.

I hope that helps someone. It turned me from a Romans 7 christian into a Romans 8 christian.

[Dani H]

Dani H, Are you a non-sinner?

Why do you ask? I know who and what I am.

Oh and before you say anything ... it's not about sin. I'm done with that, have been done with that. Got saved from that. Long ago. Got forgiven, delivered. All things are new.

I let God judge self.

That's when it gets real interesting.

Because He is soooooo good at it. Like a Master Surgeon. Just watching Him at work leaves me speechless.

God's judgment is like ... wow. Perpetual revival, you know? It's like that.

I ache for Jesus to return. That's all I know.

Oh yea ... that judgment that has to begin at God's house ... it's about self too. If God still has to judge you for sin ... get out of the kiddie pool and ask for more! Because there is more, way more! Go deeper. We always want to go wider. Why? Go deeper. God is inexhaustible.

Jesus didn't just die to deliver me from sin. He also died to deliver me from me.

You don't get extra brownie points when you don't sin. Know what I mean? It's expected behavior. You don't get to brag about it. It's nothing to be proud of because that's what Jesus came to do.

And when you get free from self, it's really also nothing to be proud of ... because that's what Jesus came to do too.

But what you get ... is Jesus. And He is enough.

[RLG]

Why do you ask? I know who and what I am.

Oh and before you say anything ... it's not about sin. I'm done with that, have been done with that. Got saved from that. Long ago. Got forgiven, delivered. All things are new.

I let God judge self.

That's when it gets real interesting.

Because He is soooooo good at it. Like a Master Surgeon. Just watching Him at work leaves me speechless.

God's judgment is like ... wow. Perpetual revival, you know? It's like that.

I ache for Jesus to return. That's all I know.

Oh yea ... that judgment that has to begin at God's house ... it's about self too. If God still has to judge you for sin ... get out of the kiddie pool and ask for more! Because there is more, way more! Go deeper. We always want to go wider. Why? Go deeper. God is inexhaustible.

Jesus didn't just die to deliver me from sin. He also died to deliver me from me.

You don't get extra brownie points when you don't sin. Know what I mean? It's expected behavior. You don't get to brag about it. It's nothing to be proud of because that's what Jesus came to do.

And when you get free from self, it's really also nothing to be proud of ... because that's what Jesus came to do too.

But what you get ... is Jesus. And He is enough.

Nice Nothing is ours to boast of. God's grace is a most precious thing.

John 15:5
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing

[Dani H]

Nice Nothing is ours to boast of. God's grace is a most precious thing.

John 15:5
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing

Hey someone who gets it!

Pleasure to meet you! Whoever you are. *handshake*

[Slug1]

Slug1___post 268,
My brothers, 1) don't drink coffee, 2) wouldn't waste money on something unnecessary while unemployed, 3)don't cuss, 4)coffee doesn't settle nerves, it's a stimulant, 5) my brothers don't get angry at inanimate objects.
"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let everyone be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: (James 1:19)
These are the kind of scriptures that my brothers adhere to.
"IF" a "brother" sins, he has either released what has always been there but hidden, or, if he doesn't repent, has announced his departure. He can't be a sinneer and a Christian at the same time.
The "sinners" don't like to hang around with those that have the Holy Ghost. They seek out "churches" where everyone sins.
You say no one can be without sin. So, to be in "your" truth you must be a sinner.
Jesus said. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Then Jesus said, "Verily, verily, whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32, 34) There is no sin in truth.
My "brothers and I have the same Father. No sinner is a brother to God's children.
We do fight to retain the few who have left, and welcomed back some who have been gone for months, but it takes a long time to re-establish their credibility.
I will never be able to sin again as a part of the Vine that is Christ. I can choose to leave. I Won't.

PJW... it is good your brothers fit what you just wrote. Now, can you answer the questions according to what I wrote?

Is the person who let the anger over come them... NOT Christian anymore?

In all you wrote I can't tell what your answer would be... a Yes (with the reason) or a NO (with the reason) would be more clear.

I don't say no one can be without sin... SCRIPTURE says we CAN'T be without sin. You keep putting words into my mouth as if you CAN'T accept the scriptures in the Bible and since I'm quoting scripture, you are accusing me falsely... that is a sin by the way

[PJW]

Without a temptation, a lust, and an enticement, there is no sin, That's what James 1:14-15 is saying. Everyone knows if the things they are doing are wrong. God's law is written in our hearts. We are without excuse. (Ro 1:18-20)
As for Paul in Romans 7, He knew it was wrong and did it anyway. He blamed the "law of sin", in his members.
If a sin is unwilling, how can God hold a person responsible? Yet He does, so what ever excuse Paul had for his behavior in the flesh as a Pharisee, he would have been held accountable. He really did have the final say on his actions.
Thank God that we who are in Christ have been freed from "the law of sin", as is written in Romans 8:2.
Your search for loop-holes has got to stop. Quit looking for justification for sin. There is none.

[PJW]

If a man has an unrighteous anger, he is not in Christ, so he is not a Christian.
If he repents of that sin, he would be a Christian. There is no sin in Christ.
True repentance would be manifested by the fact that he would never do it again.