Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[PJW]

Glad4mercy post323,
All unrighteousness is sin. Your list is a minefield I will not enter.
Paul wrote, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." ( 1 Cor 10:13)
James writes, "But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (Ja 1:14-15)
No temptation, no enticement, or no lust, means no sin. It's the motive that determines whether something is sin.

[glad4mercy]

Glad4mercy post323,
All unrighteousness is sin. Your list is a minefield I will not enter.
.

Yes, it is quite a minefield. That is why the Bible says that we must guard our hearts with all dilligence.

It's the motive that determines whether something is sin.

So then if someone does something that appears outwardly to be righteous, yet for the wrong motive, it is a sin, correct? ( See Matthew 6).

[PJW]

Noeb post 324,
Who is "those"? I you grammer get don't. I can't understand your first sentance.
A man denies the flesh when he resists temptation. Or when he goes out of his way to help someone.
Those are traits of a spiritual man, one not in the flesh.
The point of my story was that the people who want to know how to serve God perfectly will be allowed to hear the truth. It is not hidden from those seeking righteousness. Even when heretics preach from the bible, the Word is always the same. It repels the wicked and draws those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.

[PJW]

Yes, glad4mercy.

[PJW]

Gadgeteer post325,
Sinners do good for their own personal profit, not because of love. Like the people praying in the street in Matt 6:5.
Matt 3:11 was John's water baptism unto repentance. Romans 6 is water, blood, and spirit baptism into Christ and into His death.
Baptism of the Holy Ghost is when a man receives the Holy Ghost.
The "flaw in thinking" that you ask for is that John ever baptized in anything but water, unto repentance. Just like Jesus and His disciples, while Jesus lived.
When Paul writes, "do all speak with tongues?" ( I Cor 12:30), he's thinking of "diverse kinds of of tongues", plural. He had earlier mentioned diverse tongues in I Cor 12:10. Only 20 verses back.
The spirit, body, and water are one. (I Jo 5:8)
Your answer to my "are you a non-sinner?" question is "no", so if Jesus was truthful in "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.", then the "truth" you adhere to is not working. It must not be "The" truth.
Because you use deception to appear righteous, but really aren't, the "truth" you follow isn't God's truth, is it? If you had been following Jesus' truth, you would have said "yes".

[PJW]

Gadgeteer post328,
What are you selling? Cut to the chase.
I died to sin when I repented. They buried me in the waters of baptism and I was raised a spiritual man.
Those who go back to sin, manifest that they did not repent, (die).

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer post325,
Sinners do good for their own personal profit, not because of love. Like the people praying in the street in Matt 6:5.

Doesn't matter the reason, "PJW" --- it is Jesus' answer to the perception that "no one does good". They do.

Matt 3:11 was John's water baptism unto repentance. Romans 6 is water, blood, and spirit baptism into Christ and into His death.

"Water blood and Spirit" is footnoted as "Father Son and Spirit".

Baptism of the Holy Ghost is when a man receives the Holy Ghost.

I'll agree to that; but it has nothing to do with water, and "waterbaptism" is not what Rom6:3-4 is about. (Neither is John3:5.)

The "flaw in thinking" that you ask for is that John ever baptized in anything but water, unto repentance.

Clearly Matt3:11 asserts that baptism-in-the-Spirit has nothing to do with water.

"I baptize you in WATER, but He baptizes you in the SPIRIT". Spirit-baptism is not water. Thus, immersion-into-Jesus is also not by water.

Just like Jesus and His disciples, while Jesus lived.
When Paul writes, "do all speak with tongues?" ( I Cor 12:30), he's thinking of "diverse kinds of of tongues", plural. He had earlier mentioned diverse tongues in I Cor 12:10. Only 20 verses back.

Even 12:10 does not assert "all speak in tongues". Read chapters 12-14 together, and Paul is rebuking Corinth for harping on "tongues" --- Paul clearly says "It's not that important; LOVE is far more important!"

1Cor14:20 is a blatant rebuke --- Paul is saying to the tonguing-Corinth church, "Guys, GROW UP!"

The spirit, body, and water are one. (I Jo 5:8)

The three persons testify to Jesus.

Your answer to my "are you a non-sinner?" question is "no", so if Jesus was truthful in "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

If I say I have no sin, I lie and do not practice the truth; but if I confess my sin He is faithful and just to forgive me and to cleanse me from all unrighteousness. 1Jn1:8-9.

No one is completely sin-free, while we live; we struggle with the flesh daily --- and 1Cor10:12-13 says sin is ALWAYS a choice before us.

You are not sinless either, "PJW".

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin, is the servant of sin.", then the "truth" you adhere to is not working. It must not be "The" truth.

1Jn3:5-10 speaks of practicing sin.

Because you use deception to appear righteous,

Excuse me? That's a serious charge, and is actually "slander". On what do you base that?

but really aren't, the "truth" you follow isn't God's truth, is it? If you had been following Jesus' truth, you would have said "yes".

So you are sinless? Then you are in breech of 1Jn1:8.

Only one person was ever PERFECT, Jesus. We are sinless as long as we abide in Him --- because we are weak, we can stumble, which means taking our eyes off of Him long enough to sin. We cannot read 1Cor10:13 and think "it is not a problem for us any more". It is.

James agrees; if we are carried away by our lusts, then we sin, and sin brings death. If we abide in Him, we abide in repentance, and strive to grow close to Him that His power overcomes our sin.

[Noeb]

Noeb post 324,
Who is "those"? I you grammer get don't. I can't understand your first sentance.

you quoted Romans 8:8-9

Walking in the Spirit is denying the flesh. (Ro 8:8-9)

So, Romans 8:8-9 say we are not in the flesh, not to deny the flesh.

A man denies the flesh when he resists temptation.

Can you show an example from NT scripture?

Or when he goes out of his way to help someone.

I can see this. Deny your life and put others in front of you. Still doesn't fit denying your life go preach the gospel and be persecuted, but it could work, even though there's no scriptural example.

The point of my story was that the people who want to know how to serve God perfectly will be allowed to hear the truth. It is not hidden from those seeking righteousness. Even when heretics preach from the bible, the Word is always the same. It repels the wicked and draws those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.

Gotcha. Thanks for explaining.

[PJW]

Gadgeteer post337, I am sinless. I "walk in the light as He is in the light".
I Jo 1:8 is talking about those in I Jo 1:6, those who walk in darkness, which is sin. You say you don't live without sin, so you are walking in darkness.
If you were walking in the light, you could say you have no sin. "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgement: because as He is, so are we in this world." (I Jo 4:17)

[PJW]

Noeb,
The works of the flesh are listed in Galatians 5. Read Gal 5:16-25. If you deny the fleshly lusts, that you used to want to do as a man of the flesh, you are a Spiritual man.
Where do you read "Deny your life, preach the gospel, and be persecuted?

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer post328,
What are you selling? Cut to the chase.

What am I selling? The Gospel of Jesus. You must be quite young; those of us who are older know that the world is full of temptation --- and diligence is required of us to abide in Jesus and not stumble.

In Eph4:17-20 walking as the heathens walk, darkened in their understanding because of the ignorance in them, excluded from the life of God, is possible. For us. Verse after verse after verse warns us to guard ourselves against sin, and against deception.

"Unbelief" is "walking-in-sin", and vice-versa. James1:14-16 says that we CAN sin, calling us "beloved brethren", warning us not to be deceived --- and stating that sin brings DEATH. Spiritual death.

I died to sin when I repented. They buried me in the waters of baptism and I was raised a spiritual man.

There's only two ways that's possible --- if you're physically dead, or if you're Jesus. Please read Eph4:22-24 --- "lay aside the old man, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, put on the new man which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth; be renewed in the spirit of your mind."

Does any of that sound like "don't sweat it, you're now IMMUNE to sin"? No. It's the same as in Romans6 --- "stop submitting your bodies as instruments of sin, but submit yourselves to God as those alive from the dead and your bodies as instruments of righteousness."

Don't walk in sin. For if WE walk in sin, Jesus' sacrifice no longer covers us, but we can expect the fury of fire that consumes the adversaries. Heb10:26-29.

Those who go back to sin, manifest that they did not repent, (die).

Hardly. Look at these two real possibilities:

"If we died with Him we shall also live with Him;
if we endure, we shall also reign with Him.

If we DENY Him, He also will deny us (Matt10:33!).
If we are faithless, yet He remains faithful..." 2Tim2:11-13.

Two real possibilities --- died-and-enduring (saved), and denying-and-faithless (unsaved). Please read all of Hebrews, the entire letter; but especially 3:6-14 --- "take care lest there be in any of YOU a ...heart hardened by the deceitfulness of sin ...unbelieving ...that falls away from the living God. We are partners in Christ IF we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end."

Verse 6 also says "We are Christ's house IF we hold fast the boast of our hope firm until the end."

We are always at risk of becoming deceived-by-sin. If you're very young, then perhaps you have not experienced real temptation; but even young people can have sinful thoughts.

We-who-are-saved, are not sinless --- but we very much sin less. It is rare for us to sin, if we walk close to God. Indeed, the closer we are to Him, the farther we are to sin. That's the message in places like James4:7-10.

THAT is what I am "selling" --- the truth about Christianity, intimacy with Christ; an "indwelt fellowship of love", that must be cultivated and pursued just as ANY loving relationship is.

Do you know why the veil tore, "PJW"? (Matt27:51)? The veil in the temple separated priests and men from the very presence of Almighty God. YOU are invited behind the veil now, "PJW". Washed clean by Jesus' blood, God desires your presence. Why? Because He LIKES you, loves you unconditionally; He celebrates your fellowship, His thoughts of you outnumber the grains of sand. Jesus said (Jn17:3) that "eternal life was knowing the Father, and knowing the Son". John said in 1:1:1-3 that our fellowship is with the Father and with the Son.

That is the truth of this thing we call "Christianity". That is what I'm selling. Nay, not selling; promoting --- for it is a free gift, free to us; paid for with a terrible expense by Jesus Himself, His own life and His blood. Paid for with LOVE. Your name was on His lips, as He died; though you were not born for two hundred centuries, you were in His thoughts.

That's what it's all about.

:-)

[Noeb]

Then how do you 'splain "Take up your cross DAILY"? Obviously it's not PHYSICALLY die-by-crucifixion-every-day. It is "die-to-sin, every day". It is Romans6, "stop presenting the members of your body as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead and your bodies as instruments of righteousness".

Tell you what, you show me Romans 6 die to sin in Matt 10, 16, Mar 8 and 10, and Luke 9. We'll go from there

"Aorist" is without time; not past, present, OR future.

I know enough about Greek to know differently. Get a second opinion. JFB Commentary

2Ti 2:11
Greek, “Faithful is the saying.”
For — “For” the fact is so that, “if we be dead with Him (the Greek aorist tense implies a state once for all entered into in past times at the moment of regeneration, Rom_6:3, Rom_6:4, Rom_6:8; Col_2:12),

I see. So --- how do they get back for their SECOND crucifixion? How about their ninety-ninth?
Huh-uh. Men die physically only once. Even though the saying is "A coward dies a thousand deaths, a brave man only one" --- really, we only die physically once.
(Maybe a few rare "NDE's", but practically, once.)

Why would they get back, other than the resurrection? Peter didn't get back after his crucifixion. If however you want to know about how Jesus could mean physical death daily, take a look at what Paul said

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
1Co 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

2Co 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2Co 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
2Co 4:12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.

Again, you can also look at,
Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mat 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
Mat 10:25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?
Mat 10:26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
Mat 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mat 10:29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
Mat 10:30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
Mat 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Mat 10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
Mat 10:40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

[Noeb]

Noeb,
The works of the flesh are listed in Galatians 5. Read Gal 5:16-25. If you deny the fleshly lusts, that you used to want to do as a man of the flesh, you are a Spiritual man.
Where do you read "Deny your life, preach the gospel, and be persecuted?

See Post #342.......

[PJW]

Gadgeteer post341,
A man can "call himself a Christian". He "can" sin. But he "can" also go his entire Christian life without ever revolting from God.
You say "there are only two ways "that's" possible, "that" being, dead to sin. Romans 6:11 says, "likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,... " Yes, I am dead. I was re-born a spiritual man when I had faith that my repentance was death of my "old" self, that my baptism in water was burial with Christ, and that when I was raised from tha water of "burial" I was a new creature. God gives His Spirit to those who obey Him. (Acts 5:32) After receiving the Holy Ghost I had everything that I needed to go each and every day without sin.
Your biggest contention is that a man who calls himself a Christian "can" sin. That's true but a real Christian won't sin. People with the mind of Christ don't fall for deception.
No person who is defiled with sin is getting in the presence of God Almighty.

[chad]

PJW,

Does you pastor teach and believe, that neither he or you cannot commit sin and both of you are sinless? If So, what is the name of your pastor and church? I am just trying to figure out if what you believe is actually taught in your church (by your pastor) or if you came up with this theology all by yourself?

Noeb post308,
...unadulterated... How observant.
Walking in the Spirit is denying the flesh. (Ro 8:8-9)
To the deceived the norm' is the middle of Ro 7, but the righteous identify with the ends of Ro 7. Dead to the law of Moses, in the beginning, and delivered from "the body of this death" and the "law of sin in their members" at the end and verse 2 of Romans 8.
Who do you feel is responsible for teaching that a Christian cannot abstain from sin? Not God.
God will not deny "the truth " to someone who is seeking Him. "Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled." (Matt 5:6) My pastor heard a baptist preacher teaching on Romans 6. After the service he went to talk to the preacher about what he said and the preacher didn't know what my pastor, (still a seeker), was tlking about. My pastor understood "the word" and the speaker didn't. God works in mysterious ways.