Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[Dani H]

DaniH post 488
If you are a believer in Christ, you will love these scriptures.
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (Jo14:15)
"If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him." "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word that ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me." (Jo 14:23-24)
"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in His love." (Jo 15:10)
"Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. (Jo 15:14)
Thanks be to God for making it possible to obey Jesus without ever offending Him.

I love those Scriptures! I'll see those, and raise you this one:

PJW 3:36
He who is sinless, has life.

Owait, wrong Scripture.

Try this one:

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

No Jesus, no life.

So that our faith may not rest in our own efforts, but in God who raises the dead.

Paul said that, didn't he?

2 Corinthians 1:9
Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead

Because the moment you begin to trust in your own keeping power ... you are in trouble.

God always has the power to sustain what He started.

Because HE who began that work in you, is able to complete it.

It's HIS work, not yours. Why are you seeking to finish what God has started? Isn't that the trouble the Galatians were in and got jumped by Paul over? How are you better than the Galatians, and how is what you are doing not of the flesh? Are you now seeking to be justified by the Law? Or by grace?

Who or what is your faith in? That's the question.

Your power to stay sinless? Or God's power to keep you filled with His own life after He saved you and raised you from the dead?

Maybe instead of living your life in fear that if you step a toe out of line, you'll be cast away ... you live life by faith in Jesus' faithfulness to you, rather than your faithfulness to Him?

Just a suggestion ...

[glad4mercy]

It is one thing to hold to a belief that a Christian can not sin and another to start saying that believers if they commit sin are no longer a Christian or never were in the first place or are not true Christians.

You have gone from belief in a position into judgement, and if you are going to judge, then there should be a clear scriptural basis for doing so. Unfortunately, the belief that a Christian can no longer sin does not hold up in light of what is written in the bible and what has been presented throughout this thread.

If we are therefore going to judge others, then that standard which we judge should then be applied back to those who are judging, which is what I see some posts are doing in order to show brother pwj how harsh and condemning a belief that ‘If a Christian sin – he is no longer a Christian or never was in the first place or is a false Christian’ is, when there is clear scripture which shows a Christian can sin and they can be forgiven and restored.

The issue may not be a misunderstanding of scripture, but pride. Is it pride that causes a person to reject scripture and hold to a certain position, especially when one prides themselves in actions such as not sinning.

Your point is well received. I was not saying I agree with PJW's position, I was saying that I agree with parts of what he was saying, and I thought it was merely a disagreement based on how one defines sin. I did not read the parts where he was accusing people of not being Christians.

I still believe that the main point of disconnect is in how certain people define sin. Sin is the transgression of the Law, whether it is premeditated or not, whether it is knowingly or done in ignorance, whether it is done with a high hand or in a moment of weakness, whether it is done willfully, or due to carelessness, whether sins of omission or sins of commision. Christ died for all of our transgressions, even those committed in ignorance or unintentionally or due to lack of spiritual maturity. This is demonstrated by the foreshadow of the "sin offering" in Leviticus chapter 4. If you read some of my earlier posts, you will find that I tried to point this out, as well as pointing out that even Peter stumbled after the day of Pentecost in the event recorded in Galatians 2. Some people don't realize this fact

So to make it short, I thought it was a misunderstanding based on the way PJW was defining sin. Yet I did not read all the posts, and it is apparent that some statements got way out of hand.

[PJW]

DaniH post 496,
I am dead, my flesh was crucified with the lusts and affections. All God's doing. I was born again of incorruptable seed. God's doing. He who is sinless manifests the life of Jesus Christ, and His kingdom an earth. God's doing.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Pro 1:7)

[PJW]

Slug1 post 493,
Is the "we" in verse 6 also including John?
Is the "we" in I Jo 2:3 also including John?
"He that sayeth, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (I Jo 2:4)

[Slug1]

Slug1 post 493,
Is the "we" in verse 6 also including John?

Yes, that "we" is all.

If a person in Christ is double-minded they are not practicing the truth. John ups this one notch by saying if a person even says they HAVE NO sin, then the truth isn't in them at all.

So in verse 6 it's about Christians not PRACTICING the truth and those who say they have no sin (v8)... have NO truth at all.

PJW, it's about understanding the "truth" or the Word of God and PUTTING IT ALL INTO ACTION (to practice) and thus... being in obedience to God.

If a Christian still practices darkness... IOWs they are double-minded and still sin, they are NOT PRACTICING the truth which is UNDERSTANDING of the Word of God. IOWs, those who HAVE NO discipleship usually don't practice the truth.

But if they also say they have no SIN at all... they are deceived because WE all continue to HAVE sin... we just OVERCOME it (by practicing the truth) and stop doing it when we are COMPLETELY in obedience to God and follow the Word of God (Jesus).

The sin is always in us... we are able to resist it, through Christ.

[glad4mercy]

DaniH post 496,
I am dead, my flesh was crucified with the lusts and affections. All God's doing. I was born again of incorruptable seed. God's doing. He who is sinless manifests the life of Jesus Christ, and His kingdom an earth. God's doing.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Pro 1:7)

This is all good, but it is only half of the picture. Not only do we need to be dead to sin, but we need to be overflowing with the fruit of the Spirit. Anytime our words, thoughts, actions, and attitudes are not motivated by love, then we are sinning. Any act, thought, or attitude of selfishness, no matter how small it seems is sin. Any omission of doing what we know is right at any time is sin. Any time we are angry with someone without a cause it is sin. Any time we do not operate in the Spirit of meekness in our dealings with others, it is sin. Any time we try to accomplish God's work in the power of the flesh, it is sin. Any time we speak error in doctrine, even unintentionally, it is sin. Anytime we make a promise and do not keep it, it is a sin.

I believe in holiness of heart and life, but part of that is being honest with ourselves, and as I told you a long time ago, the cleansing of the blood of Jesus is continuous, for John uses the present tense when he speaks of the cleansing in 1 John 1:7.

I get the sense that you love God, and love the truth, but you have an incomplete understanding of what sin is. As we grow in Christ, the bar actually gets higher, and we see more and more the things that need to be strengthened and established further. Yet if we deny that we have any sin at all, that will hinder our growth. When I say sin, I do not mean merely the works of the flesh. I mean any area that is not entirely as it ought to be, for sin involves much more than transgressions and trespasses. It involves anything in which we fall short. We are complete in Christ, but in practice we sometimes err or omit things unintentionally, and this is sin as well. This is born out by the fact that there were sin offerings described in Leviticus 4 for those who sinned unintentionally.

Everything I just said is in the Bible, so don't think it is a matter of me being an unsaved sinner. I am merely agreeing with God.

[PJW]

Slug1 post 500, (wow)
What is an IOW?
You have given "sin" a personality of its' own.
Do you make a distinction between "having" sin and "committing" sin? What is this sin that "we" all carry even if we obey God?

[DDGresham1]

I do not understand why you are even arguing in this thread. You lied and deliberately posted a false verse of scripture. It makes no sense. Your credibility is zero on this issue.

[Slug1]

Slug1 post 500, (wow)
What is an IOW?
You have given "sin" a personality of its' own.
Do you make a distinction between "having" sin and "committing" sin? What is this sin that "we" all carry even if we obey God?

IOW = In other words.

Look... you claim (being without sin) what the Bible informs us "as a person"... who is deceived. Due to this, you aren't gonna understand... that is why I explained that you need to do a study.

As DDG1 just stated... the fruit you display is deceiving. You have lied a few times through improper use of scripture and clearly show that you do not have the conceptual understanding. Thus the verse 1 John 1:8 describes you to a T, 100%... to claim that you have NO SIN, means you are deceived and the truth (understanding of the Word of God) is not in you.

Seek discipleship... seek a study of 1 John 1 and learn what it all means.

You say WOW... the WOW is I've never thought I'd ever meet a Christian that would actually be one who John is talking about as one who is deceived as per v8.

So deceived... that no matter what is said to you to help you, you ignore the help and then you drop your mantra again and again which shows how the deceit is working upon you.

[PJW]

Glad4mercy, post501
You are making things so difficult for yourself. You are looking to make everything a sin.
Is sleeping late on a non-work day a sin? Is it a sin to spend money on a pair of shoes before the soles fall of the old ones? Should a single woman stop to help people who's car breaks down? (And I know there are times to act, but not always)
Overflowing with the Spirit? If Jesus is the vine, and we are the branches, how can we bring forth anything but good fruit?
All sin is intentional. There are no additives to Jesus' gosple for "hitting a kid that dart out in front of you".
James says that sin happens after a lust, and an inticement. And when lust conceives it brings forth sin.
That's more than enough time to weigh whether something is evil or not.
It is not difficult to obey God. There are times when an action will hurt you, but God will not allow you to suffer above what you can handle.
Not everything you do on earth is a sin, even if it makes you feel good. I go to ball games. I camp out. I fish. I study the night sky. I read books other than the bible. I like to do the puzzles in the news paper. But I also try to put out a few tracts every time I park my truck. God has given me life, and life more abundantly.
God loves you as much as He loves those you witness to. If you wish them a happy, fun life, aren't you worthy of the same?

[DDGresham1]

Don't mistake what I've said as an attack. I care about you but you have to get your head around the idea that it is possible to be relatively good compared to secular people but it is impossible to not sin. We do it without even knowing it at times and for some of us we do it knowingly (though in my mind sinning knowingly is an indication that you are distantanced from God and need to return). We love ya man, but you are wrong...plain and simple.

[PJW]

Slug1 post 504,
In your "religion" nobody can serve God acceptably.
Yet the "real" church is Christ's body. How can Christ's body be full of sin?
The "real" church is flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone. There is no sin in those bones.
Only evil trees bring forth evil fruit.

[DDGresham1]

Glad4mercy, post501
You are making things so difficult for yourself. You are looking to make everything a sin.
Is sleeping late on a non-work day a sin? Is it a sin to spend money on a pair of shoes before the soles fall of the old ones? Should a single woman stop to help people who's car breaks down? (And I know there are times to act, but not always)
Overflowing with the Spirit? If Jesus is the vine, and we are the branches, how can we bring forth anything but good fruit?
All sin is intentional. There are no additives to Jesus' gosple for "hitting a kid that dart out in front of you".
James says that sin happens after a lust, and an inticement. And when lust conceives it brings forth sin.
That's more than enough time to weigh whether something is evil or not.
It is not difficult to obey God. There are times when an action will hurt you, but God will not allow you to suffer above what you can handle.
Not everything you do on earth is a sin, even if it makes you feel good. I go to ball games. I camp out. I fish. I study the night sky. I read books other than the bible. I like to do the puzzles in the news paper. But I also try to put out a few tracts every time I park my truck. God has given me life, and life more abundantly.
God loves you as much as He loves those you witness to. If you wish them a happy, fun life, aren't you worthy of the same?

The things that have been mentioned aren't as innocent as these and your own behavior on here via lying is evidence that you are wrong. YOU SINNED in this thread. Sorry but this doesn't hold water. You are deceiving yourself if you think you don't sin in your mind. To think it is to do it in God's eyes. I gurantee you think an impure thought at times. You will lie, covet, lust, create an idol, take the lords name in vain, become too angry, something in your mind will make you guilty of sin.

[DDGresham1]

Slug1 post 504,
In your "religion" nobody can serve God acceptably.
Yet the "real" church is Christ's body. How can Christ's body be full of sin?
The "real" church is flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone. There is no sin in those bones.
Only evil trees bring forth evil fruit.

Then you are an evil "tree" because you lied.

[Slug1]

Don't mistake what I've said as an attack. I care about you but you have to get your head around the idea that it is possible to be relatively good compared to secular people but it is impossible to not sin. We do it without even knowing it at times and for some of us we do it knowingly (though in my mind sinning knowingly is an indication that you are distantanced from God and need to return). We love ya man, but you are wrong...plain and simple.

You ever have the Holy Spirit bring up a sin you were unaware was a sin?

I have... wish I could remember the thread where I testified to this. Let me go look.

satan wants us to think we DON'T have anymore sin because then it's IMPOSSIBLE for the Holy Spirit to convict us when we do something we think isn't a sin.

The Bible informing us that to say we are without sin is to be deceived... this is to help us understand just what satan is doing. he's keeping us from even realizing that we do have sin and when we actually do something sinful, we're not even aware.

Once the truth of the Bible is active... then the Holy Spirit will be able to HEAR the conviction and knowledge of something we did and have not asked for forgiveness of it.