Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[PJW]

[QUOTE=Gadgeteer;2828881]Good testimony! :-)
Even if he affirms "it's through God", it would be a self-defeating position. Whoever subscribed to such an impossible ideal as "sinlessness", could be nothing but discouraged by failure.

Hence, as we just discussed --- "God is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless" --- but this must coexist in the context of "build yourselves in faith and keep yourselves in His love".



Gadgeteer post 546,
You say "God is able to keep you from stumbling (sinning) and to present you blameless, but you had just said, "it's an impossible ideal". Make up your mind, please. Which is it? Is God able? Or is it impossible. Those are your choices.
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

[RLG]

RLG post 552,
If you are free, are you free from sin? The truth will set you free from servitude to sin. (Jo 8:32,34)

I am free from the penalty of sin .... which is death. My sin .... ALL OF IT has been atoned for thru His spilled blood on the cross. When my fleshly body is gone, so shall my imperfection be gone. (Phillipians 3:12) Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Only Christ was perfect in the flesh. The perfect sacrifice for the imperfect >>>>you and I .... and all of us.

[RLG]

delete ..... repeated post

[PJW]

Slug post 545,
The two in the temple had both made the prescribed atonements for their sins. Why wouldn't God hear their prayers?
The hypocrite had done just as he had been told to do. But, because the one was just going through the motions, it had no sincerity. He met the minimums, but...
Sorta like folks that say they worship God on Sunday, then continue to disobey Him all week.
And it was just a parable.

[PJW]

RLG post 557,
You say the penalty for sin is death, but Romans 6:23 says "The "wages of sin" is death". If you have been paid those wages you ARE dead. So how can a dead man satisfy his flesh with sin?
Paul wrote, "Some men's sins are opened beforehand, going before to judgement; (death), and some men they follow after. (I Tim 5:24) "MY" fleshly body is gone and I have been re-born as a spiritual man, One without sin.
The "it" of Phil 3:12 was the resurrection and the glorious body promised to the obedient. He says this in Phi 3:11, and in Phi3:21.

[Dani H]

The difference between a person who sins today and receives God's forgiveness and a person who last sinned 20 years ago and received God's forgiveness is ... what, exactly?

Both forgiven.

What's the difference between forgiven and forgiven??????

[Zack702]

I've heard some say, that as a Christian... you are not a "sinner", or that you "can't" sin, that Christians can't be called "sinners" at all. That there are NO sinners in the Body of Christ.

Seems that any Christian who is tempted and fails to resist, sins and is thus a sinner and anyone who thinks of themselves as not a sinner... is LYING to themselves.

Anyway... I read through 1 Corinthian chapter five and we find "Christians" that are totally undiscipled"... not undisciplined, but UNdiscipled.

The result of the lack of discipleship sure is about them being undisciplined though.

Can anyone who believes that as a Christian you CAN'T sin and that there is NO sinNER in the Body of Christ... care to explain your understanding?

Paul has to disciple the Corinthians about "holiness" because now that the Corinthians have "accepted" Christ and are in Christ and there is a day that they WILL BE SAVED... he has to fix them first because they are sinners, STILL!!

I also read about the 7 churches in Revelation and sin sure was allot of the reason that caused Jesus to come down hard on them. Not that there are people in those churches who aren't in Christ and are thus "sinners" but that those IN Christ and are FULL member of those churches... sin led to many of the problems that Jesus said, FIX THIS NOW!

So, if the thought process is that there are no SINNERS once people are in Christ... then why did Paul ever have to correct the Corinthians of long list of sins???

I was shown back a few years ago, that we shouldn't indentify ourselves as sinners.

Since, in that sense, the word sinner means someone who revels in there sin and boasts of it.

Only on a rare peer pressure situation do I remember ever acting like that.
And when I did I felt bad about it afterward.

However the word alone... sinner is perhaps what we were / are.

Without God we are vastly a majority of sinners.

By the workings of God into our lives we better understand and recognize what sin against God is and it's effect on others.

If we can say , if you sin you are a sinner. Then yes sinning as a christian = sinner.

As long as the context of sinner is not that of a person who revels and boasts of there sin, rather than being repentant of it.

When I first ran on this topic VerticalReality and Brother Mark showed me that we don't necessarily identify ourselves as sinners since we have Christ we are more likely to be defined by the justification and works of Christ whos brilliance overpowers the darkness of our sins (so to speak).

Since then I have had a more open view of the whole I am a sinner outlook.

I think overall the point is to stop dwelling on the sin and focus rather on the glory of God which frees us from sin.

Of course that thread was full of debate. And I was the one saying "I am a sinner saved by Jesus". Which in the context that I give it I still think is true. But I think I see there point now about not being defined by sin better then I did back then.

[PJW]

Zach702 post 555,
You are sure in the ball park.
Lack of sin is the manifestation of God's kingdom on earth.
"But we are not of them who draw back into perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:29)

[PJW]

DaniH post561,
The difference is twenty years of glory to God and His Son Jesus Christ.
Those who's repentance is true will not need to repent over and over. God knows who is serious.

[PJW]

Zack702 post 562,
I am an ex-sinner, saved by grace. Jesus' truth freed me from servitude to sin. (Jo 8:32,34)
A sinner who revels is the same as one who hides his disobedience to God. The penalty is the same and so is the way to be free from sin.

[Dani H]

Sin no longer has power over me, as I am not under the Law but under grace.

Grace is a dangerous thing. Because it puts all the demands on God. Grace cannot be understood without faith.

You will become completely transformed, once you understand grace.

A person who understands grace, will become sin's worst enemy. Because grace eats sin for breakfast, chews it up and spits it out again. The second you understand grace, sin has lost its grip on you for good.

What's the difference between forgiven still and forgiven again? It's the same grace!

PJW ... really? "Serious"? Now that's your platform? Brother ... really. Give it a rest. You're just as much under God's grace as the next guy you're trying to compare to yourself to who just sinned yesterday. You know full well that where sin abounds, grace abounds much more.

Now granted ... not a good idea to sin in order to make grace abound ... but grace abounds either way. Help your brother who struggles, understand grace, hmm? Since you claim to have so much. And please do stop competing and comparing. God does not compare people to each other. There is no competition in the Kingdom.

[PJW]

DaniH
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we shaould not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6: 1-7)

[chad]

James 5:12-16 (NIV 84)


^{12 Above all, my brothers, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your “Yes” be yes, and your “No,” no, or you will be condemned.
13} Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. ¹⁴ Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. ¹⁵ And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. ¹⁶ Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.


James 5:12-16 (KJV)
¹²But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.
¹³Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
¹⁴Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
¹⁵And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
¹⁶Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer post 546,
You say "God is able to keep you from stumbling (sinning) and to present you blameless, but you had just said, "it's an impossible ideal". Make up your mind, please. Which is it? Is God able? Or is it impossible. Those are your choices.

"PJ", I gave you Jude20-21. And 1Cor10:6-13. Others gave you 1Jn1:8-9.

...you aren't arguing with me, or with others here, but with Scripture.

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)

Now you're arguing with Romans8:12-14:

"So then, brethren, we are under obligation not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --- for if you do you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live." Rm8:12-14.

Which part of that sounds like "it is impossible for a saved person to live after the flesh and die"? He said "WE", didn't he?

Look at 1Cor9:25-27; he admonishes us to "race so as to win the immortal crown" --- what does he mean, besides "conquer sin"? Then he expresses his own struggle, buffeting his body and making it his slave [u]lest (after preaching to others) he HIMSELF should be disqualified/rejected/castaway!!!

There is nothing in these words of "sin is no longer a problem".

What will it take for you to stop arguing with the Scriptures that they wrote? No disrespect meant, "PJ". I don't want to discourage you, but encourage you in the same direction as Scripture...

[Gadgeteer]

Zach702 post 555,
You are sure in the ball park.
Lack of sin is the manifestation of God's kingdom on earth.
"But we are not of them who draw back into perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:29)

Oh come on --- you disregarded my "summary of all of Hebrews". Hebrews10:39 (not "29", which is what happens to US if we fall back into sin, we are no longer covered by Jesus' sacrifice!) --- is a "positive affirmation". Let's read an identical "positive affirmation" (an encouragement):

"But beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way." Heb6:9.

Speaking in WHAT way? Speaking of falling away from God because of sin!

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death? Therefore we are buried with Him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. (Romans 6: 1-7)

You "cherry-pick". If you posted Romans6:11-13, you would see a choice to "consider ourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Jesus".

That is zero of "you are completely dead to sin", and everything of "crucify yourselves and BE dead to sin but alive in Christ".

Make a choice. Not "it's-a-done-deal".

I understand that it's hard sometimes to admit a position that's not accurate according to Scripture; but understand that everyone here loves you and does not want to "just prove you wrong" --- but rather to encourage you towards Scripture, that you will be more where God wants you.

Each person here who belongs to Jesus is family; we mean no harm to you, but rather desire you to grow in understanding.

:-)