Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[keck553]

Oh, I know... but those who would say they will remain with Christ after their death, they clearly don't know.

The truth can be rather convicting. Sometimes it's easier to deny than to accept. Acceptance requires radical change which usually requires hard work. Too many (especially in this country) are lazy - looking for short-cuts.

Sorry if that's harsh.

[Slug1]

The truth can be rather harsh. Sometimes it's easier to deny than to accept. Acceptance requires change.

Hooah, thus the "renewing" of the mind scriptures.

[keck553]

Hooah, thus the "renewing" of the mind scriptures.

Like I said, a lot of folks want this all done magically for them, and that's where we hit a brick wall.

[Slug1]

The truth can be rather convicting. Sometimes it's easier to deny than to accept. Acceptance requires radical change which usually requires hard work. Too many (especially in this country) are lazy - looking for short-cuts.

Sorry if that's harsh.

I've been having a Bible Study class about the Armor of God since November 2011 going on at church. Next week we complete the Shoes of the Preparation of the Gospel of Peace (Shoes of Peace). Usually about 2-4 attend. Talk about a great class in understanding scripture and APPLYING scripture, "re-newing" the mind... yet attending requires that effort to WANT to learn the scriptures and also the commitment. We all know this class is to last an entire year. As we (they) learn, STILL means APPLYING them (scriptures).

So we soon begin in on the Shield of Faith... in the end, who was committed and of those, who in the end will apply all the learning?

Many are lazy...

I don't think it's harsh at all and sometimes I'd like to say from the pulpit... those still struggling, until you face the struggle through reading daily and understanding the Bible, you will do nothing but struggle and keep rubbing in that dent at the altar where you continually come to. Go to Bible Study and learn, then apply what Jesus HAS done for you!

That is just an example...

[Brother Mark]

Adoption is adoption is adoption is adoption is adoption is adoption is adoption.

It's like being a little bit pregnant. You can't be a little bit adopted. Not possible.

I don't know what your trying to correct here, but I don't know anyone that disagrees with the thought you posted.

[Brother Mark]

Would you say this scripture is about a person who had accepted Christ?

Yes. I think 2 Cor. clarifies that for us.

2 Cor 2:5-11

5 But if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree — in order not to say too much — to all of you. 6 Sufficient for such a one is this punishment which was inflicted by the majority, 7 so that on the contrary you should ratherforgive and comfort him, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm your love for him. 9 For to this end also I wrote, so that I might put you to the test, whether you are obedient in all things. 10 But one whom you forgive anything, I forgive also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, I did it for your sakes in the presence of Christ, 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
NASU

However, keep in mind that in 1 Cor. Paul calls him a "so called" brother. He wasn't willing to see him as a brother until he saw the fruit of the discipline take place.

[Brother Mark]

Seems that turning to error is about NOT asking for forgiveness of sin.

If error is a person staying in the milk compared to error of being in sin, let them remain in milk. Sure, those seeking forgiveness 24/7 and thus remaining in the milk, then DISCIPLE them so they can enjoy meat.

You would have to do 2 things, like the Hebrew writer did. Show them they cannot be saved, lost, then saved again. Then show them how secure they are in Christ. If you lose it, you lose it forever. It is a STRONG warning. But be encouraged, you are far more secure in Christ than you imagined!

Those in error, since you brought it up... some we are to boot out of the church. I guess this is after multiple attempts to turn them away from their error??

How many attempts to help them before a church is to boot them? Or, as the bible says, once they begin to spread their error to others in the church... boot them!?

It's not about a number. Jesus said forgive 7 * 70. It's about attitude. Are they in open rebellion and refuse to acknowledge their sin? Then boot them out. There's a difference between a rebellious person and a weak person.

[keck553]

I've been having a Bible Study class about the Armor of God since November 2011 going on at church. Next week we complete the Shoes of the Preparation of the Gospel of Peace (Shoes of Peace). Usually about 2-4 attend. Talk about a great class in understanding scripture and APPLYING scripture, "re-newing" the mind... yet attending requires that effort to WANT to learn the scriptures and also the commitment. We all know this class is to last an entire year. As we (they) learn, STILL means APPLYING them (scriptures).


So we soon begin in on the Shield of Faith... in the end, who was committed and of those, who in the end will apply all the learning?

Many are lazy...

I don't think it's harsh at all and sometimes I'd like to say from the pulpit... those still struggling, until you face the struggle through reading daily and understanding the Bible, you will do nothing but struggle and keep rubbing in that dent at the altar where you continually come to. Go to Bible Study and learn, then apply what Jesus HAS done for you!

That is just an example...

Our Systematic theology class has about 12 people in it, out of a congregation of over 200. We have a serious woman's Bible study that has about 8 women. There is another women's Bible study that has more attendees, but it's all fluff and powder (can't mention names here, right?).

[Brother Mark]

The truth can be rather convicting. Sometimes it's easier to deny than to accept. Acceptance requires radical change which usually requires hard work. Too many (especially in this country) are lazy - looking for short-cuts.

Sorry if that's harsh.

Scripture is full of promises as well as warnings. Thing is, it is all by grace not hard work.

1 Peter 1:13

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
KJV

Sure, there is the searching of the scriptures, but to each God has distributed the gifts. A teacher will do more searching than an evangelist or someone with the gift of helps.

[Dani H]

I don't know what your trying to correct here, but I don't know anyone that disagrees with the thought you posted.

Those who are not assured of their salvation might. When I post in a thread it's not just for the participants but always with the thought in mind that many guests read these threads who may never sign up or participate, but who are nonetheless out there searching for truth among all the confusion and smoke screens and misinformation.

So there ya go.

[Brother Mark]

Those who are not assured of their salvation might. When I post in a thread it's not just for the participants but always with the thought in mind that many guests read these threads who may never sign up or participate, but who are nonetheless out there searching for truth among all the confusion and smoke screens and misinformation.

So there ya go.

Context and explanation always helps. Comments out of left field are sometimes difficult to understand without explanation. Thanks for taking the time.

But if one is not assured of his/her salvation, scripture talks about "testing yourself to see if you are of the faith". It's not an easy thing to walk through!

[keck553]

Scripture is full of promises as well as warnings. Thing is, it is all by grace not hard work.

1 Peter 1:13

13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
KJV

Sure, there is the searching of the scriptures, but to each God has distributed the gifts. A teacher will do more searching than an evangelist or someone with the gift of helps.

I'm not addressing justification, I am addressing sanctification. So you just slump back and let God do it all? I see.....how is that working in the Christian community?

it is written..."...God will not allow greater temptation than YOU can bear..." not "God will not allow greater temptation than GOD can endure for you...."

[John146]

I've heard some say, that as a Christian... you are not a "sinner", or that you "can't" sin, that Christians can't be called "sinners" at all. That there are NO sinners in the Body of Christ.

Seems that any Christian who is tempted and fails to resist, sins and is thus a sinner and anyone who thinks of themselves as not a sinner... is LYING to themselves.

Anyway... I read through 1 Corinthian chapter five and we find "Christians" that are totally undiscipled"... not undisciplined, but UNdiscipled.

The result of the lack of discipleship sure is about them being undisciplined though.

Can anyone who believes that as a Christian you CAN'T sin and that there is NO sinNER in the Body of Christ... care to explain your understanding?

Paul has to disciple the Corinthians about "holiness" because now that the Corinthians have "accepted" Christ and are in Christ and there is a day that they WILL BE SAVED... he has to fix them first because they are sinners, STILL!!

I also read about the 7 churches in Revelation and sin sure was allot of the reason that caused Jesus to come down hard on them. Not that there are people in those churches who aren't in Christ and are thus "sinners" but that those IN Christ and are FULL member of those churches... sin led to many of the problems that Jesus said, FIX THIS NOW!

So, if the thought process is that there are no SINNERS once people are in Christ... then why did Paul ever have to correct the Corinthians of long list of sins???

Though we do sin after becoming saved that doesn't mean we should be labeled as "sinners". In scripture the term "sinner" refers not to someone who sins (all are sinners in that context) but to someone who sins willfully and habitually in rebellion against God. In scripture it is a term used to refer to the wicked and ungodly - the unsaved. Here are some examples:

Psalm 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Here, the word "sinners" is used in the same context as the words "ungodly" and "the scornful". Those are clearly words you would not use to describe Christians.

Psalm 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Here, the term "sinners" is used in contrast to "the righteous" and in the same context as "the ungodly".

Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Here, the term "sinners" is used in the same context as "the wicked". There are several more verses I could cite, but I trust that you see my point by now. Do Christians sin? Yes. Are we "sinners" in the sense that scripture uses that term (as referring to the wicked and ungodly)? No.

[RollTide21]

These are important considerations to be sure. As Christians we will invariably sin because of a lack of maturity. We will not make proper use of our freedom...we will let ourselves be tempted...etc.

Christians have been given a new nature...but are as newborn babes at first, not knowing what to believe.

Having said that, there is no sin in Jesus Christ. If we remain IN Him and His near presence, then we will not be led away so easily. In fact, as we abide we emanate the life of Christ to others in the world. So we cannot sin in close proximity to Christ. It is when we think we know God enough to NOT remain at His side that we fail. Pride (and smugness) goes before a fall. Christians have a whole new set of prides and prejudices to overcome because of the favour we have been shown. If we purge ourselves from these then we can become a vessel of honour for our Lord and ready for every good work.

We fail sometimes because God is not always carrying us on His shoulders and constantly flooding our hearts and minds with purity and righteousness. Sometimes He lets us fall down. He "leaves" us and we can't seem to find His Strength and His Presence...so we have to seek Him and be steadfast in Faith, understanding that a Walk with Christ is about consistency and discipline until our habits become in line with what He wants. In this way, He matures us and we grow stronger in Him. In this process of perfecting us, we screw up sometimes. He disciplines us and teaches us when we do. It's all part of His molding of us.

[RollTide21]

I understand. But some, stay groveling wanting forgiveness, salvation, etc. over and over again. Jesus is willing to forgive 7 * 70 in one day. That's a LOT of sinning!

In Hebrews 6, after the warning comes great encouragement about how secure we are in the Lord. God swore by himself to save Abraham. When he went into covenant with Abraham, God and Jesus walked through the walk of death because God knew Abraham could not do it.

IMO, this is where hearing God is so important. When you are dealing with people who never have any works, preach James to them. When dealing with people who are trusting in their works, preach Ephesians to them. When dealing with someone who is overtaken in fault, we need to hear God. Why are they overtaken? Is it because of Hebrews 6 where they should be maturing but never come to realize their security in Christ? Or is it because of open rebellion like the guy in 1 Cor. 5?

It's not "cut and dried" in the natural, Slug. Discernment is needed along with the whole counsel of God. All need to know about how secure they are in Christ. All need to hear about the warnings. However, sometimes we need to focus on one or the other for a particular situation.

Bravo, my friend.