Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[Slug1]

I've heard some say, that as a Christian... you are not a "sinner", or that you "can't" sin, that Christians can't be called "sinners" at all. That there are NO sinners in the Body of Christ.

Seems that any Christian who is tempted and fails to resist, sins and is thus a sinner and anyone who thinks of themselves as not a sinner... is LYING to themselves.

Anyway... I read through 1 Corinthian chapter five and we find "Christians" that are totally undiscipled"... not undisciplined, but UNdiscipled.

The result of the lack of discipleship sure is about them being undisciplined though.

Can anyone who believes that as a Christian you CAN'T sin and that there is NO sinNER in the Body of Christ... care to explain your understanding?

Paul has to disciple the Corinthians about "holiness" because now that the Corinthians have "accepted" Christ and are in Christ and there is a day that they WILL BE SAVED... he has to fix them first because they are sinners, STILL!!

I also read about the 7 churches in Revelation and sin sure was allot of the reason that caused Jesus to come down hard on them. Not that there are people in those churches who aren't in Christ and are thus "sinners" but that those IN Christ and are FULL member of those churches... sin led to many of the problems that Jesus said, FIX THIS NOW!

So, if the thought process is that there are no SINNERS once people are in Christ... then why did Paul ever have to correct the Corinthians of long list of sins???

[Redeemed by Grace]

I've heard some say, that as a Christian... you are not a "sinner", or that you "can't" sin, that Christians can't be called "sinners" at all. That there are NO sinners in the Body of Christ.

Seems that any Christian who is tempted and fails to resist, sins and is thus a sinner and anyone who thinks of themselves as not a sinner... is LYING to themselves.

Anyway... I read through 1 Corinthian chapter five and we find "Christians" that are totally undiscipled"... not undisciplined, but UNdiscipled.

The result of the lack of discipleship sure is about them being undisciplined though.

Can anyone who believes that as a Christian you CAN'T sin and that there is NO sinNER in the Body of Christ... care to explain your understanding?

Paul has to disciple the Corinthians about "holiness" because now that the Corinthians have "accepted" Christ and are in Christ and there is a day that they WILL BE SAVED... he has to fix them first because they are sinners, STILL!!

I also read about the 7 churches in Revelation and sin sure was allot of the reason that caused Jesus to come down hard on them. Not that there are people in those churches who aren't in Christ and are thus "sinners" but that those IN Christ and are FULL member of those churches... sin led to many of the problems that Jesus said, FIX THIS NOW!

So, if the thought process is that there are no SINNERS once people are in Christ... then why did Paul ever have to correct the Corinthians of long list of sins???

Every Christian, every born again believer, still suffers from the sin hang-over of this life.... For John writes that if we say we do not sin, we call Him a liar.

But a christian who sins, has an advocate with the Father, that of Jesus Christ and with His Spirit within us, should help us to rush to Him for forgiveness.

Now as to NT scriptures, the Bible never refers to Christians as sinners.... for His Grace covers a Christian's sin.... This doesn't mean that Christian are sinless, nor that they can sin all they want, God forbid, but the Bible separates Christian from sinners and thus when it calls out sinners, it refers to non-believers without exception that I can find. A christian in sin is listed for sure, but the label of sinners meaning Christians is never used nor implied.

Thus James 5:19
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins...... refers to non-believers within the 'church' who comes to faith through the witness and testimony of one who is. Preaching the Gospel in church never goes out of style, eh! Praise God.

[Watchman]

This is a free shot. When one is born again, they are a child of the Almighty God. We may sin, but we are not what we do...we are who we are born to be. Do you call your child a misbehaved and useless creation because they need child training? No...you call them your child. We are NOT what we do...we ARE what and who we are born as.

blessings,

Watchman

[PJW]

Dear Slug1,
Can we agree that a real Christian is one who is in Christ? (Ro 6:3)
One who has crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts? (Gal5:24) One who walks in newness of life? (Ro 6:4)
"Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteous unto God. (Ro 6:13)
If these scriptures are true, then how can a man fall to his own lusts and commit sin? (James 1:14-15)
He would be denying the truth of the bible, so he must be manifesting his non-obedience to God, which he had from the start of his "supposed" walk with God.
A real Christian would not challenge Christ for control of his own life. (Gal 2:20) "This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh." (Gal 5:16) "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. (Gal 5:18)
ergo, if you walk in the flesh, you are still under the law.
A life where you need forgiveness over and over again is the same as the Jewish "religion". "For by the law is the knowledge of sin." (Ro 3:20)
You call the disobedient in Corinth Christians. I don't. They may have heard the "good news", but they're not believing it .That is lack of faith.
To "Redeemed",
Can you show me "sin-hangover" in the new testament? Please use scriptures so I can tell that it's not some "man-doctrine".
Also you had better check your rendering of I Jo 1:8, or are you blending verse 8 with 10? You postulate that no one can be free of sin, but wasn't Jesus? Besides, if nobody can be free of sin, then both verse 7and 9 are the lie. they say "all sin', and "all unrighteousness". Do you think that you are always in sin? You can't think of a single instance where you "served God"? Is that an actual doctrine you were taught?
Jesus said, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." then He said, "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (Jo 8:32,34) Jesus said, "No man can serve two master: for either he will hate the one , and love the other; or else he will hold to the one and despise the other." (Matt 6:24)
If you serve sin, then Jesus says you hate Him.
You (nearly) finished with a truth; "non-believers". And that's exactly what they are, and until they do believe, they are lost.
"Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will He help evil doers." (Job 8:20)

[Watchman]

The entity, sin, continues to dwell in us after we become reborn...and will do so until we receive our glorified bodies that are like Jesus' glorified body. We are no longer helpless against sin, but we are not immune to it, either. That is the essence of the so-called sin hangover.

[PJW]

So even though you have "fled Egypt", (sin) you are still in Egypt?
What happened to those who wanted to go back? They were destroyed. What happened to the wicked of Sodom and Gomorrah? They are a warning to us not to do as they did. But you think "we can't help it", or what?
Sin is a choice. Love God and He will hear your prayers for help. He "heareth not sinners." (Jo 9:31)
You're going to need a scripture to show me where sin continues to dwell in a re-born man, as a re-born man is born of God, and there is no sin in God.

[Reynolds357]

I've heard some say, that as a Christian... you are not a "sinner", or that you "can't" sin, that Christians can't be called "sinners" at all. That there are NO sinners in the Body of Christ.

Seems that any Christian who is tempted and fails to resist, sins and is thus a sinner and anyone who thinks of themselves as not a sinner... is LYING to themselves.

Anyway... I read through 1 Corinthian chapter five and we find "Christians" that are totally undiscipled"... not undisciplined, but UNdiscipled.

The result of the lack of discipleship sure is about them being undisciplined though.

Can anyone who believes that as a Christian you CAN'T sin and that there is NO sinNER in the Body of Christ... care to explain your understanding?

Paul has to disciple the Corinthians about "holiness" because now that the Corinthians have "accepted" Christ and are in Christ and there is a day that they WILL BE SAVED... he has to fix them first because they are sinners, STILL!!

I also read about the 7 churches in Revelation and sin sure was allot of the reason that caused Jesus to come down hard on them. Not that there are people in those churches who aren't in Christ and are thus "sinners" but that those IN Christ and are FULL member of those churches... sin led to many of the problems that Jesus said, FIX THIS NOW!

So, if the thought process is that there are no SINNERS once people are in Christ... then why did Paul ever have to correct the Corinthians of long list of sins???

It is about application of terminology. Are you using "sinner" to refer to a positional lack of relationship with The Father or simply meaning to commit sin?
How does God view us? He views us as righteous because of Christ work; not because of our work.
I sin pretty much daily. I am righteous and I am not a sinner in the eyes of God. It has nothing to do with what I did and everything to do with What Christ did.

[Brother Mark]

It's an identifier Slug. Because of that, we don't use it to describe believers. Sinner is an identity. In Christ, we are Christians, not sinners.

There will be no liars there! But Abraham lied. However, he's not a liar. There will be no immoral person there. But David committed immorality, but he is not an "adulterer". There's a difference, IMO, in one who seeks to sin and one who seeks to avoid sin. One who seeks to sin is defined as a sinner. One who seeks to please Jesus is a Christian even if he does sin.

Paul called those undisciplined believers in Corinth saints. He spoke to them about their sin. But did he call them sinners?

[jeffweeder]

It's an identifier Slug. Because of that, we don't use it to describe believers. Sinner is an identity. In Christ, we are Christians, not sinners.

There will be no liars there! But Abraham lied. However, he's not a liar. There will be no immoral person there. But David committed immorality, but he is not an "adulterer". There's a difference, IMO, in one who seeks to sin and one who seeks to avoid sin. One who seeks to sin is defined as a sinner. One who seeks to please Jesus is a Christian even if he does sin.

Paul called those undisciplined believers in Corinth saints. He spoke to them about their sin. But did he call them sinners?

I like this post. Im not happy about it but I still sin.
Anyone saying they dont sin anymore?

[Slug1]

You call the disobedient in Corinth Christians. I don't.

Until you do... then your Bible and my Bible say two different things.

Can you show me "sin-hangover" in the new testament?

Ask RgB, that is his termage.

[Slug1]

It is about application of terminology. Are you using "sinner" to refer to a positional lack of relationship with The Father or simply meaning to commit sin?
How does God view us? He views us as righteous because of Christ work; not because of our work.
I sin pretty much daily. I am righteous and I am not a sinner in the eyes of God. It has nothing to do with what I did and everything to do with What Christ did.

It's an identifier Slug. Because of that, we don't use it to describe believers. Sinner is an identity. In Christ, we are Christians, not sinners.

There will be no liars there! But Abraham lied. However, he's not a liar. There will be no immoral person there. But David committed immorality, but he is not an "adulterer". There's a difference, IMO, in one who seeks to sin and one who seeks to avoid sin. One who seeks to sin is defined as a sinner. One who seeks to please Jesus is a Christian even if he does sin.

Paul called those undisciplined believers in Corinth saints. He spoke to them about their sin. But did he call them sinners?

While I understand the "terminology" is obviously understood differently until we repent, which is confession of any sin that we do, until we confess and until we repent... we are unrighteous until then.

Brother Mark, you bring up David... Nathan had to be sent to Him before he recognized what he did as "sin", he was a sinner until he turned away from that error and repented.

If Christians sin, they are either convicted or not, those who are not convicted, then God tells us to WARN them of their error because they are sinning.

Whether it's terminology or not, they are sinners until they turn back, confess and repent.

Better to be called brethren and/or saints and have "sin" pointed out so wrong can be made right... RIGHT? Some here don't hold to this understanding of scripture and literally say that once in Christ, they can't sin... guess thats a way to justify a belief in a secured eternal end once they believe in Jesus.

[Luciano Vinci]

I think the term "sinner" when used in the context of the nature of the believer is misapplied. I don't think the believer can have both a Christ-nature and a Sin-nature. If old things are truly passed away, that would mean our old nature has died, and we are new creatures. I don't see a dual nature in believers.

[Brother Mark]

While I understand the "terminology" is obviously understood differently until we repent, which is confession of any sin that we do, until we confess and until we repent... we are unrighteous until then.

Brother Mark, you bring up David... Nathan had to be sent to Him before he recognized what he did as "sin", he was a sinner until he turned away from that error and repented.

Why do you say this Slug? What scriptures do you have to back you up in this? Does scripture say David didn't recognize his sin before Nathan confronted him? Does scripture say he was lost and unrighteous prior to Nathan coming around?

If Christians sin, they are either convicted or not, those who are not convicted, then God tells us to WARN them of their error because they are sinning.

Doesn't scripture say that if a man is not disciplined, he does not belong to God. I would also say that God and man treat the transgressions of a 3 year old differently than they do the transgressions of a 30 year old. God deals with one sort of issue (sin) with the 3 year old and another set of issues with a 30 year old. So it is possible he doesn't convict the 3 year old of things that he will later as the tot grows.

Whether it's terminology or not, they are sinners until they turn back, confess and repent.

Scripture calls lost people sinners and saved people saints. It is an important description, IMO.

Better to be called brethren and/or saints and have "sin" pointed out so wrong can be made right... RIGHT? Some here don't hold to this understanding of scripture and literally say that once in Christ, they can't sin... guess thats a way to justify a belief in a secured eternal end once they believe in Jesus.

I have never heard someone espouse a OSAS and espouse an inability to sin to go with it. Most times, I hear that we all sin and can't help it. However, I believe we can overcome all sin in our life that we are aware of. I do believe we also have blind spots that get dealt with as we grow in the Lord. Sanctification is not an instant thing.

[episkopos]

I've heard some say, that as a Christian... you are not a "sinner", or that you "can't" sin, that Christians can't be called "sinners" at all. That there are NO sinners in the Body of Christ.

Seems that any Christian who is tempted and fails to resist, sins and is thus a sinner and anyone who thinks of themselves as not a sinner... is LYING to themselves.

Anyway... I read through 1 Corinthian chapter five and we find "Christians" that are totally undiscipled"... not undisciplined, but UNdiscipled.

The result of the lack of discipleship sure is about them being undisciplined though.

Can anyone who believes that as a Christian you CAN'T sin and that there is NO sinNER in the Body of Christ... care to explain your understanding?

Paul has to disciple the Corinthians about "holiness" because now that the Corinthians have "accepted" Christ and are in Christ and there is a day that they WILL BE SAVED... he has to fix them first because they are sinners, STILL!!

I also read about the 7 churches in Revelation and sin sure was allot of the reason that caused Jesus to come down hard on them. Not that there are people in those churches who aren't in Christ and are thus "sinners" but that those IN Christ and are FULL member of those churches... sin led to many of the problems that Jesus said, FIX THIS NOW!

So, if the thought process is that there are no SINNERS once people are in Christ... then why did Paul ever have to correct the Corinthians of long list of sins???

These are important considerations to be sure. As Christians we will invariably sin because of a lack of maturity. We will not make proper use of our freedom...we will let ourselves be tempted...etc.

Christians have been given a new nature...but are as newborn babes at first, not knowing what to believe.

Having said that, there is no sin in Jesus Christ. If we remain IN Him and His near presence, then we will not be led away so easily. In fact, as we abide we emanate the life of Christ to others in the world. So we cannot sin in close proximity to Christ. It is when we think we know God enough to NOT remain at His side that we fail. Pride (and smugness) goes before a fall. Christians have a whole new set of prides and prejudices to overcome because of the favour we have been shown. If we purge ourselves from these then we can become a vessel of honour for our Lord and ready for every good work.

[episkopos]

I think the term "sinner" when used in the context of the nature of the believer is misapplied. I don't think the believer can have both a Christ-nature and a Sin-nature. If old things are truly passed away, that would mean our old nature has died, and we are new creatures. I don't see a dual nature in believers.

Amen! We are people who begin with an inexperience of having a new nature. We NEED no longer sin...but we don't know that for sure at first. We also need each other. That takes a lot longer to learn...if ever!