Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[episkopos]

I like the way you're thinking here, g4m. (if i may be so bold) But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is not a higher law, but a fulfilment of the Mosaic Law.
Slug1,
The atonement happened in an instant, on the cross. When the blood of Jesus washes away your sin, you have been purified in baptism, that is instant. Why would Jesus not totally free us from sin and the flesh instantly, but make His servants slowly come around to holiness over weeks and months and years?
We are the temple of the Holy Ghost, and no sin is in His temple. We, the church, are His body, flesh of His flesh and bone of His bone. (Eph 5:30) God loves us too much to let His children wallow around in sin while He makes us live with guilt and fear, as we try to please Him on earth. That would be unloving, wouldn't it?

Actually the law of the Spirit IS a higher law. Until Christ men struggled to do something with the law of death in Adam. The Mosaic law merely is there to show that ONLY this law of Christ actually fulfills the law. The Mosaic law is only a gauge. The law Of the Spirit is a power that shows up positive on the gauge. Like putting a voltmeter on a wall socket. The Mosaic law is the meter. The law of Christ in the Spirit is the power.

There are two sides of a coin. The redemption is immediate where we enter into the law of Christ. But we must also be trained in our characters. These are two different issues. Otherwise how can you explain that Jesus needed to LEARN obedience even though He is God?

How much more then must we learn obedience THROUGH the Spirit?

[John146]

I fully agree that God desires us to be fully sanctified and to possess our vessels in honor, but isnt it true that we first have to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive to Christ and secondly present ourselves and yield the members of our bodies to God as instruments of righteousness? In other words, holiness is what God saved us unto, but a life of holiness is not automatic, I think that we must make conscious decisions and take appropriate actions in order to "work out" what God has already "worked in".

I agree. Nowhere does scripture teach that we automatically walk in the Spirit at all times. If that was the case then the following passage would make no sense:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This is a message Paul was giving to saved people and he clearly indicates that walking in the Spirit is something we must do and is not automatic. And he warns that if we don't then we could "fulfil the lust of the flesh" which makes it so that "ye cannot do the things that ye would". We are responsible to submit ourselves to the Holy Spirit and that is not something that just automatically happens, but is something we must decide to do (or not) every day. It seems there are some here who do not acknowledge that we have to contend with the flesh even after we become saved but scripture makes it quite clear that we do and also that it's not automatic that we walk in the Spirit rather than give in to the lust of the flesh.

[glad4mercy]

I agree. Nowhere does scripture teach that we automatically walk in the Spirit at all times. If that was the case then the following passage would make no sense:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This is a message Paul was giving to saved people and he clearly indicates that walking in the Spirit is something we must do and is not automatic. And he warns that if we don't then we could "fulfil the lust of the flesh" which makes it so that "ye cannot do the things that ye would". We are responsible to submit ourselves to the Holy Spirit and that is not something that just automatically happens, but is something we must decide to do (or not) every day. It seems there are some here who do not acknowledge that we have to contend with the flesh even after we become saved but scripture makes it quite clear that we do and also that it's not automatic that we walk in the Spirit rather than give in to the lust of the flesh.

Amen brother. We must deny ourselves, take up our cross daily, and follow Jesus. As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

[PJW]

Episkopos,
The Mosaic Law was, and is, the will of God. That Law is written in our hearts. (Ro 1:19-20)
Your coin metaphor worries me. Good-bad, black-white, win-lose: a coin flip separates and segregates.
Paul wrote, “For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Ro 8:2) Free from the law of sin… Wasn’t that what Paul blamed for his unholy behavior in Romans 7, when he was a Pharisee?
We are free from the things that kept Paul doing evil when he wanted to do good.
As for “training character”, my old character was crucified with Jesus Christ, as per Romans 6. My new character KNOWS what is right and wrong, and trusts God for help in accomplishing the things He wants me to do. I’m sure yours does too. As for the finer points, like modesty in apparel and how to occupy my time, we are given pastors and teachers and brothers to emulate, people to look up to.
You seem to be looking for a reason to “slowly” come to be a new man. It’s not gradual. You’re in or you’re out.
As for Jesus, wasn’t He obedient before His suffering? He was learning what it’s like, as a human, to be obedient unto death. There are no barriers to our obedience.
I can’t say “I knew it all” from the moment I received the gift of the Holy Ghost, but I knew enough to stay sin free. And God didn’t allow any temptation more than what I could handle. ( 1 Cor 10:13)
As for the coin, it is either holy or it is unholy.
John 146,
Galatians 5:16 seems straight forward enough to me. Walk in the Spirit and you won’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh. To better understand verse 17, add “in the flesh” to the end of the verse. “If you are in the Spirit, you won’t do the things you wanted to do in the flesh.
Paul goes through the list of fleshly and spiritual deeds, and finishes with, “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Gal 5:24)
My flesh was crucified, and is dead. Just like Romans 6 states. Submitting to the Holy Spirit is automatic, if you love God.

[glad4mercy]

Submitting to the Holy Spirit is automatic, if you love God.

I don't know if it's automatic, but I do agree that if we truly love God, we will submit to the Holy Spirit.

The problem I have with the word automatic is that it removes the need for dilligence, vigilance, and continually yielding to the Spirit. Love is the key, but we need to stay in the love, we need to stay close to God. Additionally, we need to keep growing, for if we stop growing, we will digress.

2 Peter 1: 5-10- And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[Slug1]

I don't know if it's automatic, but I do agree that if we truly love God, we will submit to the Holy Spirit.

The problem I have with the word automatic is that it removes the need for dilligence, vigilance, and continually yielding to the Spirit. Love is the key, but we need to stay in the love, we need to stay close to God. Additionally, we need to keep growing, for if we stop growing, we will digress.

2 Peter 1: 5-10- And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Hooah, also in:

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The scripture even shows us that IT IS a struggle. The Bible is clear in what we ARE to do always... but it's a struggle as we understand in this scripture. Flesh will fight against the "Spirit" and the "Spirit" AGAINST the flesh... so walking IN THE Spirit IS NOT automatic. A person MUST first ALLOW the Holy Spirit to be in control.

Ya want to know another way that satan even prevents this? If the SPIRIT of God is ALLOWED to freely move a person and there IS NO struggle against the flesh, then that means the Holy Spirit is free to manifest any or ALL His Gifts of the Holy Spirit through a person as well.

Yet Christians today RESIST this, their FLESH says NO and they don't walk in that element of walking in the Spirit.

It's not ONLY about lusts... it's also about God's will and many Christians struggle against that as well. Many say they don't sin... well, if God is wanting them to give a prophecy to a person and they don't do it, is that disobedience a sin??

I say it is and many Christians say they are not sinful and are in COMPLETE disobedience to God and His will in their lives because they don't even believe in the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

[PJW]

Glad4mercy,
Submission is automatic IF YOU LOVE GOD. It’s like falling is natural if you slip on ice.
Submission is unnatural if you don’t love God. Submission is the diligence and vigilance and yielding to the One who cares about your soul, without backtalk or pouting or the occasional backslide.
“…for if you do these things, ye shall never fall:” (2 Peter 1:10) Never! Praise God.

[PJW]

Slug 1,
The scripture says that if I will walk in the Spirit I will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. (Gal 5:16)
I believe this.
Besides, my flesh was crucified with the affections and lusts. They are dead. (Gal 5:24)
By walking in the Spirit I won’t sin.
You are correct about the “if the Spirit is allowed…” words. God will use you and manifest His gifts to everyone who obeys Him. Why wouldn’t He? He’s our Father! Real Christians don’t resist. False Christians try to make God look weak.
By their fruits we can tell a false prophet. (Matt 7:15-18) By their fruits you can tell a false Christian.
Why don’t you confront those devils and get them out of your church? Show that God has given you the gift of discernment. (And wait for the fur to fly, but also the blessings)

[glad4mercy]

Glad4mercy,
Submission is automatic IF YOU LOVE GOD. It’s like falling is natural if you slip on ice.
Submission is unnatural if you don’t love God. Submission is the diligence and vigilance and yielding to the One who cares about your soul, without backtalk or pouting or the occasional backslide.
“…for if you do these things, ye shall never fall:” (2 Peter 1:10) Never! Praise God.

I think the misunderstanding is in what exactly we mean by automatic. When I say submission is not automatic, I mean that there is a decision that we have to make to daily deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Jesus. Now if we truly love God, we will do this and if we don't do this then we don't truly love God as we ought to. Yet regardless of whether we love God or not, we have to choose the good, we have to reckon ourselves dead to sin, we have to yield to the Spirit, we have to say "not my will but thine be done". God does not pilot us unless we turn the controls over to Him, and the Bible seems to teach that this is a daily action. Salvation happens only once, yet yielding to the Spirit is a daily thing.

So yielding to the Spirit is automatic in the sense that if we truly love God, we will obey Him and His commandments will not be cumbersome to us. Yet at the same time, we must actively add to our faith, virtue...etc., and make our calling and election sure, for it is only if we do these things we have assurance of never falling. Additionally, it is not enough to add the things Peter listed in 2 Peter 1, we must also retain them. So perserverance and sanctification is not entirely passive, there are some things that we must actively pursue. This is what I meant by not automatic. If everthing was automatic, all we would need to do is passively allow God to work in us, but there is also an active pursuing of the prize of the High Calling of God in Christ Jesus. I think this is what Episcopos meant by his coin statement. On one side of the coin God works in us both to will and to do of His Good Pleasure, on the other side of the coin we must work out our salvation in fear and trembling. Of course we know that "work out" does not mean to work for, Paul is speaking of working out what God works in, that is to allow the work that Christ accomplished at the cross, and the work that the Spirit who raised Christ from the dead is doing inside of us to become more and more evident in our walk.

[Slug1]

Slug 1,

Why don’t you confront those devils and get them out of your church? Show that God has given you the gift of discernment. (And wait for the fur to fly, but also the blessings)

See that's the thing... when discernment is exercised and a person who has accepted Jesus does struggle... WHAT God allows to be discerned isn't always believed by many in the Body of Christ today.

Also... when a person doesn't allow the Holy Spirit to freely move, this doesn't SHOW them to be a NON-Christian... Christians do this all the time and all this shows is that they are allowing the flesh to WIN over the Spirit. That scripture is CLEAR that if you WALK IN the Spirit, then the lusts of the flesh will not be fulfilled. ONLY a Christian CAN EXPERIENCE this battle of flesh vs. Spirit... if the flesh wins sometimes and the person is struggling and they do sin, IT DON'T MEAN they are NOT Christians. The fact they ARE struggling between flesh and spirit SHOWS the fruit that they ARE Christian. a NON-Christians would NOT even be struggling.

To sin doesn't mean a person isn't a Christian... it just means they are a Christian that is NOT freely walking in the Spirit. They are holding to something of the world or something that is a lust of the flesh and this prevents the Holy Spirit from FREELY moving and prevents their WALKING freeing IN the Spirit. Once they surrender it over to God and allow the Spirit of God FREEDOM to move freely in them and they move freely IN the Spirit... then they will NOT succumb to the flesh and lusts of the flesh.

[John146]

John 146,
Galatians 5:16 seems straight forward enough to me. Walk in the Spirit and you won’t fulfill the lusts of the flesh. To better understand verse 17, add “in the flesh” to the end of the verse. “If you are in the Spirit, you won’t do the things you wanted to do in the flesh.
Paul goes through the list of fleshly and spiritual deeds, and finishes with, “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Gal 5:24)
My flesh was crucified, and is dead. Just like Romans 6 states. Submitting to the Holy Spirit is automatic, if you love God.

That is true, but loving God is not automatic. Love isn't something that is forced. You must love and obey God willingly and that is a choice that we make every day.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Remember, this is a message for believers, not unbelievers. John is saying here that if we (believers) say we don't sin at all then we are deceiving ourselves. That means you are deceiving yourself by claiming that you don't ever sin. You think you have arrived and have already reached the goal and have already received the prize and don't sin at all! Even Paul didn't think that of himself so I guess you're more righteous than Paul?

Phil 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. 12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

You claim to have attained and apprehended something (sinless perfection) that Paul had not even attained after many years of being a Christian!

[John146]

It's not ONLY about lusts... it's also about God's will and many Christians struggle against that as well. Many say they don't sin... well, if God is wanting them to give a prophecy to a person and they don't do it, is that disobedience a sin??

Yes.

James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

[PJW]

Slug 1___post 130,
You seem to be part of a gray church instead of a white or black church. "Lukewarm" it seems.
If "they" sin, "they" are servants of sin. (Jo 8:34)
No man can serve two masters, they will love the one and hate the other. (Matt 6:24) "They" are holding onto a delusion. And your support of that lifestyle will be your downfall.
Turn from sin: quit making excuses for those that choose sin. They will be judged for their traitorous sins. Be careful that you're not sucked into their unbelief.
You can't be a parttime Christian. Sin does prove that your not a lover of God.

[Slug1]

Slug 1___post 130,
You seem to be part of a gray church instead of a white or black church. "Lukewarm" it seems.
If "they" sin, "they" are servants of sin. (Jo 8:34)
No man can serve two masters, they will love the one and hate the other. (Matt 6:24) "They" are holding onto a delusion. And your support of that lifestyle will be your downfall.
Turn from sin: quit making excuses for those that choose sin. They will be judged for their traitorous sins. Be careful that you're not sucked into their unbelief.
You can't be a parttime Christian. Sin does prove that your not a lover of God.

I disagree... cold and hot, sure. Not lukewarm... they aren't dead to their sin and accept it as a lukewarm church would. Cold as in... in need of discipleship so like Corinthians, that small percentage who are in need of correction can experience a life with a changed mind and heart in Christ. Such changes allow overcoming of bondage to sin and when temptation hit's to take the escape.

So not lukewarm at all. Like the Bible says.. better to be cold (struggling) and hot (not struggling) than to be lukewarm (who cares).

Those who are cold are correctable, those hot can be used by God to correct/disciple the cold. Those who are lukewarm, they are uncorrectable because they don't care.

I don't support any sinful lifestyle at all and God has equipped me to counsel and disciple those who are struggling and/or even those who don't struggle.

I get frustrated sometimes, disappointed sometimes... but never will either be my downfall.

Look at my signature... it's a hardship I'm willing to endure because SOMEONE has to be willing, so God's work can be done. Imagine if Paul wasn't willing to go into Corinth and help the Corinthians?

The words you write, the comments you make... you'd turn your back on ALL of the people in Corinth so I bet you'd turn your back on those who are struggling today as well.

[PJW]

John 146___post 131,
Actually, John is talking about the people in verse 6 who are walking in darkness. They are the ones who can't say they have no sin.If your belief is that nobody can say they have no sin, what about Jesus? What about someone who has just been baptized for the remission of sins? What about the people of verse 7 who walk in the light as He is in the light? They have been cleansed from All SIN. What about the people in verse 9 who have confessed their sins and have been cleansed of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS?
My sins have been washed away, and I'm not going back to a life of death.
As for Philippians 3, verse 11 says what Paul hasn't attained to in verse 12. The resurrection of the dead and the new "perfect body". Philippians 3:21 is further proof of this, where Paul writes, "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able to subdue all things unto himself."
Let's look at something else Paul wrote about; Romans 8:2.
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." The law of sin is what Paul blamed for his "captivity" in Romans 7:23.
He was made free from the things that would have eventually taken him to hell. Are you interested in freedom from sin, or are you just talking the talk?