Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[John146]

John 146___post247,
Really?!!

Yes, really.

One who rejects Christ and is rebellious against God is a sinner.

That's what I said. But what you don't seem to understand is that not all sin is an act of willful rebellion against God. Can you understand that not all sin is willful? How do you interpret Romans 7:15-20?

If the Corinthians had not repented, they would have been lost. Like Peter said in Acts 2:38, the walk with Christ starts with repentance. If you don’t “turn from your sin”, you are not facing God.
Paul wanted to bring back those “carnal” people to godliness. He spoke by the Holy Ghost. God gave him the words to use that didn’t punish the “carnal” Corinthians into abandonment of the right course, but to show his love (and hope) for them. Had they not repented, they would have been lost, no matter what Paul called them.

You're dodging my questions. Paul said that they were "babes in Christ" so tell me why you have decided to contradict Paul and try to tell us that they were not actually "in Christ". If someone is "in Christ" that means they are saved and are a Christian.

[John146]

What is pleasing to God is humility, not perfection. God knows my heart...and the hearts of all who love Him yet struggle daily with the flesh. I don't always walk in the Spirit. I want to and I try to, but I fail sometimes. Sometimes I get upset. I get bitter and spiteful about things. I don't exhibit the Fruit of Self-control. I would love for the Holy Spirit to come over me when I get angry or when I find myself thinking impure thoughts, but He doesn't...even though I have pledged my Life to Christ. You know what He does do, though? When I come back to Him in humility and brokenness, He restores me without condition. He brings Peace back into my heart. That's Grace and Mercy. If you don't know what that is like...and how it fosters an amazing Love and Awe toward the Lord, then you don't know all there is to know about who He is and how much He loves and cares for us.

Amen. Well said. If we could be sinless ourselves why would we need the Sinless One, Jesus Christ, and why would we need God's grace and mercy? Just because we're saved doesn't mean we don't continue to need His grace and mercy.

[glad4mercy]

“If” an error of understanding leads to an action later deemed to be sin, it wasn’t sin to he who did it, at the time of the “offense”. Like Peter’s problem in Gal 2:16-17. I don’t consider that a sin because if Peter would have considered it sin he wouldn’t have done it.

So just because Peter didnt consider it sin, it's not a sin? I know people who think that lusting after a women is not a sin, ( "...you can look as long as you don't touch...) but it's still a sin because Jesus said so. This is the thing. You think that all sin is deliberate, and every sin is committed with full knowledge of it's sinfullness, so if someone sins in ignorance, ( or self delusion more likely), you say it is not a sin. I would say that any time we have to rationalize something, find an excuse for it, or justify it in our own minds, it most likely was sinful. We, (even Christians ) have powerful defense mechanisms, you know. That's why we need to stay in the Light, abide in the Light, and walk in the Light. So that makes righteousness and obedience an objective truth, not subjective. Righteousness is what God says it is, and ignorance and self delusion is no excuse. That's why the scripture says if you see a brother overtaken in a fault, restore Him in the Spirit of meekness, lest you also be tempted.

Peter acted in fear and out of a respect of persons, because Peter was not perfect. He is now though.

[Noeb]

Yes, really.

That's what I said. But what you don't seem to understand is that not all sin is an act of willful rebellion against God. Can you understand that not all sin is willful? How do you interpret Romans 7:15-20?

You're dodging my questions. Paul said that they were "babes in Christ" so tell me why you have decided to contradict Paul and try to tell us that they were not actually "in Christ". If someone is "in Christ" that means they are saved and are a Christian.

This is going on over here too? I'm trying to get Gadget to see the same. I'm not doing a good job.

[PJW]

Slug1___post254,
The defenders of sin always seem to rely on 1 John 1:8 to justify their lifestyle, not recognizing that “darkness” is sin.
“This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. (I Jo 1:5)
“If we say we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.” (I Jo 1:6)
The lie is that you say you have fellowship with Him, but sin.
“But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from ALL our sin. (I Jo 1:7)
“If we, (the same we as in verse 6), say we have no sin, (though we are walking in darkness, sin), we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
The lie is that even though you “say” you have no sin, you still sin.
Your statements indicate that all men walk in darkness, so they can’t say they are free from sin.
But I walk in the light, as He is in the light. Jesus’ blood has cleansed me of ALL sin. I’m not going back to the darkness. That is fellowship with God. When you speak of context, you must include verses 5 and 6.
If you can’t be free from sin, how do you explain I Jo 2:4,5,6, or I Jo 3:6-10,22,24, or I Jo 4:17, and I Jo 5:2-3, and I Jo 5:18? They all define a “real” Christian. No sinner can identify with these verses.
So, who can? Those walking in the light, where there is NO sin.
Glad4mercy___post254,
All unrighteousness is sin: “ (I Jo 5:17) There is only conscious, willful sin.
If there is no lust, enticement, or temptation, there is no sin. (Ja 1:14-15)
Give me one example of a sin without temptation.
Love God with all thy heart. Anything less is idolatry. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Name an unwillful sin.
Stranglove___post255,
Welcome aboard. Your name is a good fit for a supposed Christian who doesn’t love. There is no love in sin.
Remember, God heareth not sinners.” (John 9:31)
John146___post256,
All sin is willful. Come up with one “accidental” sin. But read James 1:14-15, first.
The answer to “Are babes in Christ, in Christ? Only if they are in Christ. Paul said, in my own words, “I can’t talk to you as spiritual, but as carnal, even as unlearned newbies who don’t know any better.”
While in sin, they are not in Christ. You can’t be carnal in Christ.
The Corinthians had “left their first love”. Paul was bringing them back from the abyss to Christ. If not for Paul, they were done for.
John146___post257,
We can’t be sinless “by ourselves”. I gave “my” life away that Jesus could live in this temple.
See John 15:13, Luke 9:23, Mark 8:34, Matt 16:24. And John 12:25. “He that loveth his life shall lose it: and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.” I hated my life and had it crucified as per Romans 6:3-7.
Glad4mercy___post258,
Who on earth can think that an evil lust is not sin? Oh ya, those who hate God.
The key to your whole post is “self-delusion”.
If someone has rationalized and deluded themselves about some sin, how much time “knowing that it is sin”, was spent on the deluding? Every sin is a conscious effort to do an evil deed, or not to do a good deed.
To delude or rationalize is an attempt to placate a “knowing” conscience. They try to believe their own lies. Jesus said, “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own; for he is a liar and the father of it. (Jo 8:44)
Because you don’t use your bible, and include the location of your quotes, you have misquoted Galatians 6:1. “Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
As for Peter, I wasn’t there. I don’t know what he thought or who he feared. I’ll stand by my post 249 addressed to you.

[Slug1]

So, who can? Those walking in the light, where there is NO sin.

After reading this last post of yours and you tossing in only select scriptures that when in context really don't support you. In this final statement I left in the quote, the fruit of that statement is according to the context of the scriptures, one of deception and without truth.

I'm sorry PJW, yes... Christians walk in the light but to say you are sinless... means they are deceived and without the truth. The only way any Christian would believe they are completely sinless, is through only deceit and/or pride.

You are taking many of those scriptures you posted out of context. That is one of the ways the Bible explains to us about not having the truth... any scripture out of context means it is NOT the truth.

Tell me... define darkness?

Is it doing a sin maybe once, twice a year during a period of weakness against temptation and immediately the person seeks forgiveness once they sin?

Or is darkness about a Christian who sins and when it suits them, they seek God and if a few other sins were done along the way... just pray once for ALL of them?

Either way... neither is without sin. Even if a person only does ONE sin in a period of 50 years between accepting Christ and dying later... they were not without NO sin.

You see, in your remaining lifetime there will be sin, you say there will not be but the Bible tells you... YOU'RE DECEIVED! To even say what you are saying means that the "truth" is not in you if you say... you have NO sin. This is NOT meaning Christ is not in you... the scripture is telling you that THE CONTEXTUAL TRUTH/UNDERSTANDING of the Bible IS NOT in you.

I will say this... the unholy spirit of "religion" teaches all about what you have said and use scriptures out of context as you have. Something you should seriously pray about.

It's not that the scriptures you post are ignored by all the others in this thread because MANY have been trying to help you understand the context of ALL THOSE scriptures but you ignore the truth of the Bible as they try to explain that truth. Thus the reason I pointed out the meaning of 1 John 1:8 telling you... the TRUTH in not in a person who says they are without sin.

That truth will not be in you UNTIL you listen to the truth of scriptures IN PROPER context AND... you are not deceived any longer.

I'll also say this... you're request to Dani H is birthed of pride... no humble Christian who is blameless would seek to "PROVE" themselves SINLESS or RIGHTEOUS! Especially when asked... truth doesn't have to be proved... ever. Pride drives a person to try to "prove" sinlessness.

Yet... pride is sinful... fruit bears A LOT to show the true nature and that challenge to prove yourself to Dani H... bad.

[DDGresham1]

“This then is the message which we have heard of Him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. (I Jo 1:5)


Agreed, God is perfect.

“If we say we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.” (I Jo 1:6)

Occasionally sinning unwillfully or being overcome is not "walking" in darkness. Walking in darkness is continual...that's what a walk is or otherwise they call it standing...a walk is movement and continuous.


“But if we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanseth us from ALL our sin. (I Jo 1:7)

Yes, we walk in the light but occasionally slip and must return to our walk in the light.




Give me one example of a sin without temptation.

Unrighteous anger.



All sin is willful. Come up with one “accidental” sin. But read James 1:14-15, first.

No...no it's not. Unrighteous anger can come out of nowhere, so can lust...ever gotten really mad when you shouldn't because something came out of left field? Ever been minding our own business only to have a half dressed secular person cross your path and you lust before you can gather yourself? I bet you have (if you tell the truth).

The answer to “Are babes in Christ, in Christ? Only if they are in Christ. Paul said, in my own words, “I can’t talk to you as spiritual, but as carnal, even as unlearned newbies who don’t know any better.”
While in sin, they are not in Christ. You can’t be carnal in Christ.

A rare sin isn't carnal. LIVING CONSTANTLY in sin is carnal.

[PJW]

So, what you are saying is that until I start to sin again, I am not in the truth?
Luke 1:77-79, “To give knowledge of salvation unto His people by the remission of their sins. Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the Dayspring from on high hath visited us, To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.”
The way of peace doesn’t include any sin.
John 3:19, From Jesus to Nicodemus, “And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Do your evil, hate the light.
Acts 26:15-18, About Paul, “And I said, Who art thou, Lord?” “I am Jesus whom thou persecutes.” “But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom I now send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.”
Turn from the darkness, and from the power of satan.
Colossians 1:12-13, To the Colossians, “Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son:"
Those in the light have been delivered from the power of darkness, but not those in the darkness who still sin.
1 Peter 2:9, Exhortation from Peter, “But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light:”
No sinners are walking in that light.
Darkness is sin. Light is godliness.
I suppose you think I should thank all those that want me to include myself among the disobedient, haters of God. (Matt 6:24) No way! Jesus came to free us from sin, and I am proof of His success, as are all the people who have turned from ALL wickedness and unto Him.The obedient children of God and brothers of Jesus Christ cannot be swayed by the doctrines of those in sin.
Dani H said she(?) wanted to follow me around to see how it's done. (Not her exact words), so when I agreed, she changed her post and declined.
The Jews waited for a savior to save them from the Romans, not knowing that a greater power was the real oppressor. Jesus came to save them from sin and they didn't see it. "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin." (John 8:32,34)
I am free, and it's God's doing and not mine. Submit to Him and be free.

[DDGresham1]

You're not in the truth now because you are either not telling the truth about your sin or you aren't aware for some reason. Since you didn't answer the first time it was asked, I'll ask it again: How do you interpret Romans 7:15-20? We are made perfect in Christ even though we are still yet imperfect. We are better than those not called to Christ in that we do sin less but we don't completely stop as it can occur in the mind and even sometimes the body.

[Dani H]

Dani H said she(?) wanted to follow me around to see how it's done. (Not her exact words), so when I agreed, she changed her post and declined.

She.

I changed my post before you responded (check the time stamps if you care). I don't play chicken with people. It's not my fault that your posts are so lengthy.

I think this is what disturbs me the most:

I see people here covering their weaker siblings who are not yet strong in the faith and who have weaknesses and succumb to them from time to time.

Then I see someone else denying any affiliation with those weaker ones, stating "I'm not related to those sinning liars at all and they do not belong to God."

I take issue with you talking about my family like that.

Why would James call people "brothers and sisters" and then tell them to not slander each other?

Because his brothers and sisters were slandering each other, so Papa Apostle James had to write them a letter and tell them to stop it! By the time you got a letter from James ... you were misbehaving.

Yet, he called them "brothers and sisters". He didn't disown them for one minute even while coming down on them for their sinful slander!

That's how apostles rolled. Always correcting. Always in the trenches. Always fatherly, never excusing sin but also coming alongside to help a brother/sister out.

I'm going to follow their example because they knew how to deal with sin properly. Neither condemning nor excusing ... but correcting. Like Jesus.

Why would Peter say that if we love each other deeply, we cover a multitude of sins? Whose sins? He was talking to believers.

I honestly don't think you understand Scripture as much as you think you do.

But I will give you brownie points for being sincere about not sinning. That's good! Keep up the great work!

Just ... leave my siblings alone and stop condemning them. You've no authority to do that. K? Thx.

[PJW]

Romans 7:15-20, Paul is talking about his "old" self as evidenced by his "that is , in my flesh" distinction. Paul ended his monologue with verse 23 and, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the "law of sin" which is in my members." However, in Romans 8:2, he says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the "law of sin" and death. That which he fought against "while in the flesh" has no power over him, now that he walks after the Spirit and Not the flesh.
Slug 1, what is the penalty for a thousand sins? What is the penalty for one sin? There is no difference.
DaniH, When I hit Quick Reply, the posts being added by others are not visible, till I have finished replying and leave the thread and come back to the thread. Kind of a black hole effect. Maybe I should log out while doing my reply, then come back and "paste". But then I can't go back and catch the wording of those I reply to. Tricky sight.

[Dani H]

DaniH, When I hit Quick Reply, the posts being added by others are not visible, till I have finished replying and leave the thread and come back to the thread. Kind of a black hole effect. Maybe I should log out while doing my reply, then come back and "paste". But then I can't go back and catch the wording of those I reply to. Tricky sight.

Yup, understood. No worries. No need to be doing the log out/in dance for such a small matter that's easily resolved.

Now, let me ask you a question:

When Peter said that judgment must begin in the household of God, what did he talk about being judged IN God's family?

I'll give you a hint:





... wait for it ...






Sin.





It's dirty work to have to correct people who sin. I understand that. It's far easier to disown them or make excuses for them.

It takes love and patience and kindness and boatloads of grace to hang in there with somebody until they are grown to maturity and can disciple others. It takes fathers and mothers (spiritually) and having that kind of heart for people, the heart Father God has for His children, even the wayward ones that continually trip over themselves because nobody cares enough to correct them or because it's too easy for them to church-hop or not bother attending altogether, to actually stay put somewhere and grow up.

But it's really not all that hard when we derive such grace from the Lord. God's grace is always available to assist us in having Christ formed in us, to help us to maturity, to chastise and to correct, to pick people up and to pull them up. To tell them things they don't want to hear. To be personally involved.

I encourage you to read the apostles' letters for what they are instead of pulling out of them what you personally believe. You see fathers dealing with their children. Over and over again. Bringing correction. Time and time again. Dealing with being persecuted by the world, being the gum under the world's shoes while at the same time having to continuously see to it that Father God's children could grow to maturity. By the time your little church got a letter from one of the apostles ... you was in deep doo doo. Because the hammer was going to come down and you were going to be called on the carpet. Can you imagine those letters being read, and conviction hitting, and people repenting? Must have been a sight to see. We need more of those types of people, today in the Church.

We got too many babies on our hands wanting chocolate shakes instead of having to chew meat until their jaws hurt a bit and they can actually swallow and digest it. It's uncomfortable. People don't like it. But we can't let that stop us now, can we?

[Slug1]

Slug 1, what is the penalty for a thousand sins? What is the penalty for one sin? There is no difference.

Well, this is what this thread is all about, isn't it?

Question... you are with a brother in Christ who is heading off to a job interview. He's got no vehicle so you offered to drive them to the location the interview is to take place. He's dressed in his best clothes, a tie but no jacket since a full suit would be too over the top. He asks that you stop at a coffee shop because he's a little nervous and wants a "coffee" to help settle the nerves. You advise him that is not a good idea and to just surrender his anxiety over to God. His final decision is to get the coffee so you stop at some shop and he comes out with two, and hands you yours.

On the way to the location for the interview a car pulls out and you have to make a strategic move to avoid an accident and your brother's coffee pops open and pours all over the front of his shirt and lap. In the chaos of the moment, his anger causes a series of swear words to be expressed in that anger. End of scenario.

Now... based on ALL you have said all throughout this entire thread, your friend is NOW... no longer a part of the Body of Christ due to his sin. He is no longer in Christ, no longer a Christian, no longer your brother.

THAT is the message you teach based on the way you apply scripture.

Do you truly believe that by swearing, all the above has taken place and the person who "was" a brother... isn't anymore?

Also... this brother in Christ, if all you teach is accurate... how WAS he able to speak those swear words when the anger emotions erupted in his flesh when the coffee was spilled all over him?

The answer is in all the help ALL these other people in this thread have been trying to help you understand yet you ignore them all.

NO ONE has said that a person HAS to sin to BE in the TRUTH. That has NEVER been said! The Bible TELLS us that if a person utilizes scripture wrongly and due to that has a wrong understanding (yours is that you are COMPLETELY sinless and that you will NEVER be ABLE to sin ever again)... this is wrong, thus the TRUTH is not in you. As I said... this doesn't mean Christ isn't in you, it just means the TRUTH isn't in you.

Read all that Dani H wrote... if all you say is the truth, then the Apostle wouldn't help all their brothers and sisters, yet they did and they ALSO CONTINUED to call them... brothers and sisters (brethren).

You however, do not... based on all you have said so far in this thread.

[glad4mercy]

Give me one example of a sin without temptation.

Sins of omission, at times.

At times, incorrect handling of the Word.

Sins caused by spiritual immaturity, that are not recognized until a Christian is more mature in the Lord.

Judging a person based on appearance.

Lack of sympathy or empathy.

Spiritual apathy.

Failure to bear fruit.

Spiritual dullness.

A little leaven of unbiblical teaching, ( not outright heresy, but being off-base on something, and then being dogmatic about it.

Leaving your first love.

Wrong motives

Insensitivity

Neglecting the best for the sake of the good.

PJW, I agree with you that a Christian can be and needs to be free from all sin, and walk in righteousness and true holiness, I just don't think that a righteous lifestyle is something you receive and then you're finished. I believe that Justification, regeneration and initial sanctification are instantaneously received by faith, but a righteous lifestyle is a result of a continual and daily denial of the flesh, and putting on the New Man, and walking in the Spirit. There is also always a need for growth in righteousness and true holiness, as we add to our faith, virtue and to our virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love, so that not only are these things present in us, but they abound more and more.

1 Thess 4:1- Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;

[Noeb]

Romans 7:15-20, Paul is talking about his "old" self as evidenced by his "that is , in my flesh" distinction. Paul ended his monologue with verse 23 and, "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the "law of sin" which is in my members." However, in Romans 8:2, he says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the "law of sin" and death. That which he fought against "while in the flesh" has no power over him, now that he walks after the Spirit and Not the flesh.

So then what is the the law of the Spirit of life that is found in Christ?