Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[Gadgeteer]

RLG post301,
Romans 3:10 Is from verse 3 of Psalm 14.

Right --- it is also Psalm53:3. It is a "lamentation" --- essentially an exaggeration. "All have turned aside, none seek good"; but it does not conflict the idea that men DO seek God (and FIND Him), Matt7:7 and 14 (14 uses "heurisko", find by seeking), it's Heb11:6, Jeremiah 29:11-13, and very much Acts17:26-31.

"Lamentation" is explained by Genesis 6; "all men's thoughts were only evil continually", does not preclude the reality that one was RIGHTEOUS (Noah!) and found favor with God.

Besides --- "none do good", must be balanced against Jesus' statement in Luke6:33 "sinners do good".

If it is still true, and not being used to illustrate the lack of difference between Jew and Gentile, then Jesus is not righteous.
Paul used the old testament scriptures to show the recipients of his letter that the Jew and Gentile are the same in that they all sin the same.
Jesus came to free us from sin. He was successful!
I am not convicted of sin. I was paid “the wages of sin” (Ro 6:23). That wage was death.
God made a way to undergo the circumcision done without hands. (Col 2:11-13) Casting away the flesh. Paul writes of “that way” in Romans 6. Baptism into Christ, and into His death. If we die with Him, we are raised from the dead with Him, to walk in newness of life. That is when a man is re-born.
I’ve been chastened. I’ve been paid the price of my sins with death. Again, I’m not in the flesh. (Romans 8: 9-11)

But that's speaking of not walking IN the flesh. Antinomianism/Gnosticism asserts we can walk in the flesh but our SPIRIT is righteous and saved.

A sinner is not born again. Had he been born again, he wouldn't be walking in the flesh and satisfying fleshly lusts.

Ahhh, but that's a daily struggle. Not that we fight against sin, but as James said in chapter 4 we draw near to God that God draws near to us. The closer we are to Him, the farther we are from sin.

Sanctification…To be made holy, atoned for, set aside,…
Done at baptism. Ro 6:4, Walk in newness of life, God’s life.

Done at WHAT "baptism"? Please look at Matt3:11-12 --- there are three baptisms there, John baptized with WATER (#1), but Jesus baptized with the SPIRIT (#2, nothing to do with water!) and with fire for sinners (#3, also nothing to do with water!).

The word "baptizo" means to immerse; sometimes in water, sometimes not. If "immersed in the Spirit" has nothing to do with water in Matt3:11, then "immersed in Jesus" in Romans6:3 also has nothing to do with water.

That also means Eph4:5, "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" also has nothing to do with water --- it is the immersion-into-Christ-and-the-Spirit.

The issue with "the old sin nature is dead and gone", is shown in Eph4:22-24 that it is a daily choice to not walk in the old nature:

"...lay aside the old man, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; put on the new man, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth."

"You. DO this!" That is the admonition in Eph4:22-24. If the "old-sinful-man" was GONE, then he would not be available to "put on". He is dead, but not gone; it's a daily choice to "take up our cross" and crucify our sinfulness, daily; a choice in which we succeed, by drawing close to Him, and exploiting HIS power to keep from sinning.

What I want most to teach is the intimacy between Christ and believer -- it is truly a "marriage". He who calls himself "Christian", has fallen in love with Christ; broken and worthless he throws himself at Jesus' feet --- who raises the man to his feet and declares, "I wash you with My own blood; follow Me, and your sins are cleansed away. I bought you forever, from the Cross, if you will but believe in Me and allow Me to indwell you and work through you."

We are slaves, there is no choice --- except what we are slaves TO. We are slaves to sin; or through Him we are enslaved to God. (Rm6:17, 22.) But His yoke is easy, His burden light; slavery to God is a marriage of love, an "indwelt fellowship of love" that lasts forever, in His perfect love, kindness, and glory. In John8 Jesus said that he who practices sin is a slave to sin; so whom the Son sets free is free indeed. We are incomplete, and are only complete in Him. That is this thing we call "Christianity".

:-)

[PJW]

Noeb post308,
...unadulterated... How observant.
Walking in the Spirit is denying the flesh. (Ro 8:8-9)
To the deceived the norm' is the middle of Ro 7, but the righteous identify with the ends of Ro 7. Dead to the law of Moses, in the beginning, and delivered from "the body of this death" and the "law of sin in their members" at the end and verse 2 of Romans 8.
Who do you feel is responsible for teaching that a Christian cannot abstain from sin? Not God.
God will not deny "the truth " to someone who is seeking Him. "Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled." (Matt 5:6) My pastor heard a baptist preacher teaching on Romans 6. After the service he went to talk to the preacher about what he said and the preacher didn't know what my pastor, (still a seeker), was tlking about. My pastor understood "the word" and the speaker didn't. God works in mysterious ways.

[PJW]

Gadgeteer post309,
You missed something. Jesus was talking to people before He was crucified.
Any of us who carried that cross, carried it to their own crucifixion, and they are dead. "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" (Ro 6:3)
A dead man has no need to be killed a second time.
Jesus died on His cross so that we could crucify the flesh with Him, be buried with Him, and be raised anew with Him. (RO 6:4-7) My life manifests the risen Jesus, not the suffering Jesus. Thanks be to God!!!!

[Noeb]

"Noeb", is "crucified", a done deal (past event)?

Absolutely! Told you already (in the other thread).

2Tim 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Is Greek aorist, meaning a one time, in the past, event. Does that even sound like it's not a done deal? Be dead? What's not done about it?

Past tense
Romans 6:3 Know ye not , that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Past tense
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Luke 9:23 is about physical death.
22 Saying , The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain , and be raised the third day. 23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily , and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged , if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away ? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed , when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Every instance in every gospel of taking up cross is physical death/persecution.

[Noeb]

Gadgeteer post309,
You missed something. Jesus was talking to people before He was crucified.
Any of us who carried that cross, carried it to their own crucifixion, and they are dead. "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" (Ro 6:3)
A dead man has no need to be killed a second time.
Jesus died on His cross so that we could crucify the flesh with Him, be buried with Him, and be raised anew with Him. (RO 6:4-7) My life manifests the risen Jesus, not the suffering Jesus. Thanks be to God!!!!

15 characters

[PJW]

Gadgeteer post316,
Exaggeration? How 'bout mournful or sorrowful?
In Gen 6, mourned, rued, regretted. Exaggerated?
Sinners do good to each other in order to receive the same-in-kind. To get paid back.
Well, if your an antinomianist or a gnostic, you'll have eternity to regret your error.
If it's a daily struggle, what are you struggling against?
Sanctification is at water baptism as Romans 6 describes.
Jesus' disciples baptized with water too. It was still the baptism of repentance.
Baptism of the Spirit is manifested by speaking in tongues. Some times there are more signs, like when I got the Spirit, and when one of my brothers got it.
The baptism of fire is the end of the earth, when Jesus returns as a consuming fire, as Matt 3:12 makes quite clear.
John the Baptist's baptism was in water. So is the baptism of Romans 6.
John writes, "There three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
When I was water baptized as per Romans 6, the blood was applied to me as I was on the cross with Jesus. I was also immersed in His Spirit.
Were you able to hold Jesus' blood in your cupped hands when you had the blood applied to you? How 'bout the Spirit? Were you able to see that in your hand? But the water of baptism, you can see and feel that. The water is the manifestation of the blood and of the Spirit. They are one.
And there are three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. ( I Jo5:8)
It is a daily choice, it's a war for your soul.
I can barely read your unlabled scripyures. How 'bout saving me from the squints and writing normallly?
There is enough variance from what I know is true that I am compelled to ask, are you a non-sinner?

[Dani H]

DaniH post302,
A sinner is not born again. Had he been born again, he wouldn't be walking in the flesh and satisfying fleshly lusts.

Okay so then your answer to:

Is one sin proof a person is not born again?

is YES.

(You coulda just said so)

Your answer to "does one sin make a person a sinner?"

Is also YES.


Gotcha, thanks.

No further questions. I'll just see myself out.

[glad4mercy]

Sins of omission, at times.

At times, incorrect handling of the Word.

Sins caused by spiritual immaturity, that are not recognized until a Christian is more mature in the Lord.

Judging a person based on appearance.

Lack of sympathy or empathy.

Spiritual apathy.

Failure to bear fruit.

Spiritual dullness.

A little leaven of unbiblical teaching, ( not outright heresy, but being off-base on something, and then being dogmatic about it.

Leaving your first love.

Wrong motives

Insensitivity

Neglecting the best for the sake of the good.

PJW, I agree with you that a Christian can be and needs to be free from all sin, and walk in righteousness and true holiness, I just don't think that a righteous lifestyle is something you receive and then you're finished. I believe that Justification, regeneration and initial sanctification are instantaneously received by faith, but a righteous lifestyle is a result of a continual and daily denial of the flesh, and putting on the New Man, and walking in the Spirit. There is also always a need for growth in righteousness and true holiness, as we add to our faith, virtue and to our virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love, so that not only are these things present in us, but they abound more and more.

1 Thess 4:1- Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;

PJW, did you reply to this yet?

Just so you know, I am not trying to disprove you or debate you, I am trying to reach an agreement. The main difference between you and I seems to be that I believe we grow in truth, holiness,and righteousness, and you seem to deny this.

[Noeb]

Noeb post308,
Walking in the Spirit is denying the flesh. (Ro 8:8-9)

Those say we are not in the flesh, not to deny the flesh. Jesus said to deny your life and be willing to suffer for him to preach the gospel. Scripture says to kill (mortify -Greek word) the DEEDS OF the flesh, not kill the flesh. It also says to make inoperative (mortify -a different Greek word) your members. All kinds of strange beliefs and ungodly behaviors have sprung from "deny the flesh". Not that you are suggesting them, just that I don't know why we use phraseology not found in scripture that is associated with incomplete gospels.

To the deceived the norm' is the middle of Ro 7, but the righteous identify with the ends of Ro 7. Dead to the law of Moses, in the beginning, and delivered from "the body of this death" and the "law of sin in their members" at the end and verse 2 of Romans 8.
Who do you feel is responsible for teaching that a Christian cannot abstain from sin? Not God.
God will not deny "the truth " to someone who is seeking Him. "Those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled." (Matt 5:6)

I agree and say the same all the time. I am proof. I was stubborn, hardheaded, and rebellious for 15 years. Always hated my sin but when I realized it was time to face eternity and get off the fence and either be free like Jesus said those that find him would be, or apostate, God sent a man to give me the simple unadulterated gospel I had never heard. He is faithful!

My pastor heard a baptist preacher teaching on Romans 6. After the service he went to talk to the preacher about what he said and the preacher didn't know what my pastor, (still a seeker), was tlking about. My pastor understood "the word" and the speaker didn't. God works in mysterious ways.

I don't understand the point here. It's probably so obvious I am missing it. Could you explain?

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer post316,
Exaggeration? How 'bout mournful or sorrowful?
In Gen 6, mourned, rued, regretted. Exaggerated?

Psalm 14 and 53 are lamentations. A "lamentation" is by definition an "exaggeration". "Men IN GENERAL do this", but some men do something else.

Sinners do good to each other in order to receive the same-in-kind. To get paid back.

But "sinners do good" --- Jesus said it, I believe it.

Well, if you're an antinomianist or a gnostic, you'll have eternity to regret your error.

I am NOT an "Antinomianism". We are required to be truly righteous. The list of sins that men do, keep them out of His kingdom --- 1Cor6:9-11, Eph5:5-6, Gal5:19-20 all say "those who DO these things shall not inherit".

If it's a daily struggle, what are you struggling against?

Temptation, deception-away-from-Jesus. Men can truly deceive us away from Christ, 1Jn2:26-28, 2Jn1:7-9, Col2:6-8, 2Pet3:17, 1Tim6:19-20, etcetera. SIN can deceive us away from Christ, Heb3:6-14, James1:14-16. Demons can deceive us away from Jesus, 1Tim4:1, 2Cor11:3. Hope you look these up to make sure I'm not "pulling something" on you. :-)

Sanctification is at water baptism as Romans 6 describes.

Rom6:3-4 is not water. We established that "immersion-into-the-Spirit" is not about water in Matt3:11 --- you would have to prove that immersion-into-Jesus in Rom6 is DIFFERENT than immersion-into-the-Spirit to persist asserting "Rom6 is waterbaptism"; or you would have to contend Matt3:11 is waterbaptism into the Spirit. You can't do either one, can you?

Jesus' disciples baptized with water too. It was still the baptism of repentance.

Not every occurrence of "baptizo", involves water. It does not in Matt3:11, therefore it also does not in Rom6:3-4. Tell me the flaw in my understanding.

Baptism of the Spirit is manifested by speaking in tongues.

Noooo, it CAN be -- but plenty of people are fully indwelt by the Spirit but don't "tongue". Indeed, Paul said in 1Cor12:30 that all do NOT speak in tongues. (NASV is the better translation, the "me" construct is a negative question best translated "all do NOT, do they?")

Some times there are more signs, like when I got the Spirit, and when one of my brothers got it.

When someone asks for "my sign", I say: "My sign is 'PROCEED WITH CAUTION'..."

The baptism of fire is the end of the earth, when Jesus returns as a consuming fire, as Matt 3:12 makes quite clear.

Right --- it is GEHENNA. But the point is that it has nothing to do with water. And "immersed-in-the-Spirit" has nothing to do with water.

Will you still contend that "immersed-in-Jesus" means WATER? How do you separate Rom6:3-4 from Matt3:11?

John the Baptist's baptism was in water. So is the baptism of Romans 6.

So --- immersion-in-the-SPIRIT is not water; but immersion-in-JESUS is water.

Why?

John writes, "There three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

My NASV footnotes this "Father, the Word, and the Spirit --- these three are one." In context, it is the Spirit who bears witness, it is the Father that bears witness, and the Son.

When I was water baptized as per Romans 6, the blood was applied to me as I was on the cross with Jesus. I was also immersed in His Spirit.

What can I do to convince you [b]Romans6 is not about water? Immersion-into-the-Spirit has nothing to do with water (Matt11:3), therefore immersion-into-Jesus has nothing to do with water. It simply means "died/crucified/buried/immersed/UNITED" with Jesus --- His death (our sinful man dies), and His resurrection (we are new creations).

Were you able to hold Jesus' blood in your cupped hands when you had the blood applied to you? How 'bout the Spirit? Were you able to see that in your hand? But the water of baptism, you can see and feel that. The water is the manifestation of the blood and of the Spirit. They are one.

That's a misunderstanding; there is no support for that.

Deny that Matt3:11 Spirit-immersion is "waterless". Can you? Now, deny that "Jesus-immersion" is just another facet of the same salvation that "Spirit-immersion" is. Can you?

What are the grounds for answering the two "can-you's" previous paragraph, "yes"?

And there are three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. ( I Jo5:8)
It is a daily choice, it's a war for your soul.

Right; we can be deceived away from Jesus and salvation.

I can barely read your unlabeled scriptures. How 'bout saving me from the squints and writing normally?

You don't like the small-print? I can try to remember to not down-size them on this thread then.

There is enough variance from what I know is true that I am compelled to ask, are you a non-sinner?

I am a non-practicing sinner. Vive-la-diferance'. I do not walk in sin, I walk in Him.

[DDGresham1]

The problem I have with PJW and others that belief they are sinless is that according to Christ thinking of a sin is the same as commiting the sin. There was a long list given earlier by Glad4Mercy that was never addressed. I do not believe that it is possible that PJW and others never have one moment of Non-Christ like thought after they are saved.

[Slug1]

I heard or read somewhere that Paul’s Romans 7 account of his past is done in the “present-historical” tense, though I have never been able to verify that.

it really don't matter if "you" verify it actually

The truth of God's Word is verified even if a person don't believe it or trust it.

The problem is when a person has to go seeking verification...

At the end of Romans 7 we have Paul talking about himself in the present tense. Paul the Apostle says that he still battles between mind and flesh. The context of the scriptures ends with Paul clearly explaining that he still... struggles.

v23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


Is this "So then" part of the scripture still in your Bible? If so... why would you say if Paul still struggled, he's NOT a Christian???

Also another question... do you ever say the Lord's Prayer?

If you do pray this prayer, why... if you can't sin any more?

Also... why would Jesus Himself instruct us as Christians to pray this prayer with asking for the forgiveness of sin... if we can't sin no more?

Seems Jesus knew we'd sin after accepting Him.

Which brings up... what is the purpose of repentance and restoration after a person accepts Christ. We all know a person can't be RE-Born Again. A person is Born-Again only once... if they stumble to the point of even falling away, then they repent someday... they are restored, NOT RE-born Again.

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer post309,
You missed something. Jesus was talking to people before He was crucified.
Any of us who carried that cross, carried it to their own crucifixion, and they are dead.

I see. "Let him take up his cross DAILY and follow Me."

And that's about dying physically, crucified on their own crosses. Uhm, that explains dying-by-crucifixion TODAY, but how do they get back to be crucified TOMORROW?
(...or the next day, or the next...)

"Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into His death?" (Ro 6:3)
A dead man has no need to be killed a second time.

That means we die to sin, and are raised with Him as new creations.

Sayyyy, you don't suppose --- that "take up your cross daily, and FOLLOW Jesus", means we have to die to self and sin every day? Could that be what Jesus meant?

(Love to hear how it could be anything else...)

Jesus died on His cross so that we could crucify the flesh with Him, be buried with Him, and be raised anew with Him. (RO 6:4-7) My life manifests the risen Jesus, not the suffering Jesus. Thanks be to God!!!!

That still does not 'splain the "CROSS DAILY" thing.

Any ideas what Jesus meant? Obviously it was not PHYSICALLY-crucified every day, more than once don' make no sense a'tall. Could it mean "die to sin and self daily"?

[Gadgeteer]

Noeb", is "crucified", a done deal (past event)?

Absolutely! Told you already (in the other thread).

Then how do you 'splain "Take up your cross DAILY"? Obviously it's not PHYSICALLY die-by-crucifixion-every-day. It is "die-to-sin, every day". It is Romans6, "stop presenting the members of your body as instruments of unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead and your bodies as instruments of righteousness".

2Tim 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

Is Greek aorist, meaning a one time, in the past, event. Does that even sound like it's not a done deal? Be dead? What's not done about it?

"Aorist" is without time; not past, present, OR future.

Past tense

In context, we can then CHANGE --- there is an implied "BUT":
"If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him;
if we ENDURE, we shall also reign with Him.

(BUT!)

...if we deny Him He also will deny us (Matt10:33!!!
If we are faithless..."

You and I know very well [b]there is no such thing as "faithlessly SAVED". Matthew10:33 absolutely applies; if we deny Jesus before men, He will deny us before God. If we are FAITHLESS, and PERISH, yet He remains faithful, even though we perish.

Two positions --- one "we are saved", two "we are not". But real possibilities.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not , that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

And that's why we consider two natures, and why Paul says "lay aside the old sinful man and put on the new righteous man" (Eph4:22-24).

Past tense

Noooot exactly. Think of it as conveying, "If we STAY 'died-to-sin' ".

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Galatians is a poor letter to use in this (though I thought you said you weren't OSAS?). They were begun in the Spirit (3:3), running well and obeying the truth (5:7), they were KNOWN by God (4:9); but they were ending in the flesh (3:3), turning back to weak/worthless things (4:9), they became SEVERED (separated) from Christ and FALLEN from grace (5:4!).

Luke 9:23 is about physical death.

I see. So --- how do they get back for their SECOND crucifixion? How about their ninety-ninth?

22 Saying , The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain , and be raised the third day. 23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily , and follow me. 24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. 25 For what is a man advantaged , if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away ? 26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed , when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Every instance in every gospel of taking up cross is physical death/persecution.

Huh-uh. Men die physically only once. Even though the saying is "A coward dies a thousand deaths, a brave man only one" --- really, we only die physically once.
(Maybe a few rare "NDE's", but practically, once.)

[Gadgeteer]

Which brings up... what is the purpose of repentance and restoration after a person accepts Christ. We all know a person can't be RE-Born Again.

Why not, "Slug1"? We know a born-again-person can stop being "born-again", that's what Heb12:7-9 says. We HAVE BECOME subject to His discipline, but if we NOW ARE WITHOUT, then we are not sons (not any more) but illegitimate!

Take the Prodigal --- he was "dead", and was "lost". But was he "always a son"? The Biblical concept of "sonship", is saved --- child-of-God, born-again. Clearly, in Luke15:13 (and only verse 13), he was drunk and carousing and being with harlots; THAT is why he was "lost/dead".

When he came to his senses and came back to his father (clearly reflecting a person returning to GOD), did he not become a child again?

Isn't that "born-again, again"?

A person is Born-Again only once... if they stumble to the point of even falling away, then they repent someday... they are restored, NOT RE-born Again.

"Restored"? I see "born-again" as "born-from-above", and "born/begotten-of-God", and "become-adopted-children". If by turning our backs on His discipline (Heb12:25, Heb12:7-9) we can no longer be adopted-sons but become illegitimate, then wouldn't returning be "becoming re-adoped"? Isn't that what happened to the guy in James5:19-20?

Thanx for helping me understand how you see it.