Sinning as a Christian = sinner?

[Gadgeteer]

Ace post576,
I could only find two questions, How do you get to heaven, and, will I never die.
I thought I had answered the first, but, you'll get to heaven by obeying God.
The other answer is, I will never die. My body will turn to dust, but I am not of this vessel.
I don't know where you got the idea from me that grace was a one time deal, because I know that if I didn't get the grace of God, I never would have gotten on this forum, much less be able to resist the temptations thrown at me daily.
I have been judged. The verdict was guilty. The punishment was death. I was crucified with Christ, just like Romans 6 says.
My life is Jesus' life now. I have been re-born of incorruptible seed. Adam's seed was killed. It has no effect on me now.

Campus Crusade has "two questions" that are important to understand where a person is. The first question is "If you died right now where would you go?"

I'm certain you would answer that "Heaven", or "to be with Jesus".

It's the second question that has the most importance:
"If someone stopped you at the gates of Heaven and asked, "Why should YOU come in HERE?" --- what would you say?"

What would be your answer, "PJW"?

[Dani H]

DaniH post 574
You had said you were not under law, but under grace. I wanted you to see where Paul used the same line and went into how a nan is born again.
Did you know that grace reigns through righteousness? No righteousness-no grace.

Thank you for your response. I know you have a lot to respond to and you're doing quite a good job carrying on 10 conversations all at once.

My response: Of COURSE grace reigns through righteousness.

Because righteousness = Jesus.

Jesus who was made unto us righteousness and sanctification, remember? (1 Cor 1:30)

Also known in the OT as Jehovah Tsidkenu (The LORD our Righteousness).

Grace doesn't reign through man's righteousness but through God's righteousness.

Grace doesn't reign through you, PJW. It reigns through God.

Our obedience doesn't cause grace to reign. Grace reigns all on its own.

[PJW]

RLG post 587,
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Fot this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destoy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifested, and the chidlren of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 Jo 3:8-10)
I'm sticking to God's Word.

[PJW]

Slug1 post 588,
I'll do you one better.
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifested, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 Jo 3:8-10)
When people in Galatia and Corinth "fell away" they showed by their sin what they really were. If they later honestly repented, turned from sin, they would have been accepted as new brothers.

[PJW]

Chad post 590,
You are correct.
Remission of sins happens in baptism. (Acts 2;38) (Luke 3:3)
Paul writes, "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forebearance of God;"
And a related scripture, "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgement and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries." (Heb 10:26-27)

[RLG]

RLG post 587,
"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. Fot this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destoy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he CANNOT sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifested, and the chidlren of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. (1 Jo 3:8-10)
I'm sticking to God's Word.

In regards to my inquiry... (Your sinless/perfectionist doctrine does not allow for error after one has been saved. Or does it ? It is one or the other.),... I'l take this as a no....it does not allow for error. Not even one. Just thinking that this point should be made clear to all who read this thread

[PJW]

Gadgeteer post 594,
Most of what you say, backs-up my point of view, but, are you?
Your version of the bible makes things sound different than mine. For instance..."if anyone be in Christ he is a new creation --- the old passes away, behold all has become new" (2Cor5:17). But in that, I recognize the tense of the verbs --- "the old IS PASSING away, new things have come. That was all from your post.
My KJV bible says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." That looks like past tense to me. And my testimony is that it is a past tense event. I'm a new creature. The old self is gone.

[PJW]

Gadgeteer post 601,
The answer to the first question is, sleep till the return of Jesus.
The second question is an impossibility, as we will not be asked for our thoughts on the matter. We will be judged for every word we speak. Having crucified the flesh, I don't have fear about the judgement. "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgement: because as He is, so are we in THIS world." (1 Jo 4:17)

[PJW]

RLG post606,
You're right. What you call "errors" which are actually rebellious choices to disobey God. The scripture I cited makes it clear that no sinner is of God.
If they repent they are welcomed back, but they were faking it before their "real" repentance.

[Zack702]

Gadgeteer post 594,
Most of what you say, backs-up my point of view, but, are you?
Your version of the bible makes things sound different than mine. For instance..."if anyone be in Christ he is a new creation --- the old passes away, behold all has become new" (2Cor5:17). But in that, I recognize the tense of the verbs --- "the old IS PASSING away, new things have come. That was all from your post.
My KJV bible says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." That looks like past tense to me. And my testimony is that it is a past tense event. I'm a new creature. The old self is gone.

Sorry, I'm jumping in again...

But what is new and what was old ?

Remember that the law of Moses is what was old ?
When we being under the law did fear for ourselves that we should offer up a sacrifice to God for our sins.

But now that time is past and things are new that we being not under the law of Moses, yet not above it, have the law of Christ in our hearts.

I think the only sin that is death to the soul is to forsake Christ and that is what was new...
29Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The law is good and if you do it, it is good, but you are not good.
When we be raised we will be raised in One name alone and it is not our own.
That is why we praise Christ and we love God because God does not suffer us to be condemend by our own name.
Noone can say, I have made my name great and so God will accept me.
God may make your name great but it is not for your own good but for the good of others.
And if it is not for the good of others then it is not a great name.

[PJW]

Zack702 post 610,
The "old" is the flesh and it's nature. (Also the Mosaic Law, and other things, I'm sure) The "new", is the man of the Spirit, the man re-born of incorruptible seed.
The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. (Ro 8:4)
Zack, Where did you get the following?
When we be raised we will be raised in One name alone and it is not our own.
That is why we praise Christ and we love God because God does not suffer us to be condemend by our own name.
Noone can say, I have made my name great and so God will accept me.
God may make your name great but it is not for your own good but for the good of others.
And if it is not for the good of others then it is not a great name.

[Zack702]

Zack702 post 610,
The "old" is the flesh and it's nature. (Also the Mosaic Law, and other things, I'm sure) The "new", is the man of the Spirit, the man re-born of incorruptible seed.
The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. (Ro 8:4)
Zack, Where did you get the following?
When we be raised we will be raised in One name alone and it is not our own.
That is why we praise Christ and we love God because God does not suffer us to be condemend by our own name.
Noone can say, I have made my name great and so God will accept me.
God may make your name great but it is not for your own good but for the good of others.
And if it is not for the good of others then it is not a great name.

The incorruptible seed is Christ.

I know not where I got that from as I often will find these things comming to me.

But here are some passages from which I suppose, I gain the meanings of what I have written.


Mark 10:18
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

(???)


Romans 9
9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

(See now how God is saying these things that the elder shall serve the younger? See'ing it is not by his name that he makes for himself (Jacob / Esau), but that he function according to the goodness of God.)

-----------

25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

(children of God)

------------

31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

--------------------

Matthew

28Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

---------------

37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38This is the first and great commandment.

39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

(This is the kingdom of God. That you love your neighbour as yourself. And when you don't have the choice, because you are accepted into the kingdom. Then your name will be as your neighbors and noone will question there love.)


I am not sure if this is helping you understand where I get what I write from. If it is not then perhaps I am less than prepared.

I am not saying you must sin.
But I would not that you judge anyones faith and that anyone judge yours.
Because there is one true judge and it is not in us to judge like God.
How then can we say we do not sin, unless we are a judge of sin ?
Rather we say God cleanses us of our sin through the new covenant.
Noone would encourage sin who seeks Christ.
And I am not sure they would deny there own.
So you may not sin at all. And I praise God for that.

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer post 594,
Most of what you say, backs-up my point of view, but, are you?
Your version of the bible makes things sound different than mine. For instance..."if anyone be in Christ he is a new creation --- the old passes away, behold all has become new" (2Cor5:17). But in that, I recognize the tense of the verbs --- "the old IS PASSING away, new things have come. That was all from your post.
My KJV bible says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold all things are become new." That looks like past tense to me. And my testimony is that it is a past tense event. I'm a new creature. The old self is gone.

The text was written in Greek --- click here for the Greek, and click on "tense" for "parerchomai", it is second aorist active indicative. Aorist/2nd-aorist has no indication of past present or future; it's often translated "past", but it also makes sense in the present --- "old things pass away". There are plenty of places in Scripture where a true believer (saved!) can begin walking in sin again, and the old things are no longer "passed away". Heb10:26-29, Rom8:14, James1:14-16, etcetera.

The first question is "If you died right now where would you go?"

The answer to the first question is, sleep till the return of Jesus.

Okay, then we'll rephrase the first question.

"If Jesus returned THIS MOMENT, what would happen? You would be with Him, right?"

"If someone stopped you at the gates of Heaven and asked, "Why should YOU come in HERE?" --- what would you say?"

The second question is an impossibility, as we will not be asked for our thoughts on the matter. We will be judged for every word we speak. Having crucified the flesh, I don't have fear about the judgment. "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgement: because as He is, so are we in THIS world." (1 Jo 4:17)

No, don't dodge --- this is so each of us will know exactly where the other is standing.

Suppose you were heading to meet with Jesus when He returns. Suppose, hypothetically, there was some sort of a gate, and someone (it doesn't matter who!) was asking people:
"Why should you be with Jesus?"

Humor me here --- what reason would you give to be with Jesus?

Thanx.

[PJW]

Gadgeteer post 613,
I'm already with Jesus. (Col 3:3) When Christ appears, I will be with Him. (Col 3:4)

[Noeb]

The text was written in Greek --- click here for the Greek, and click on "tense" for "parerchomai", it is second aorist active indicative. Aorist/2nd-aorist has no indication of past present or future;

Correct. This is because it is our state. Our spiritual position. Our nature. It is ever present. It is done. This is because what Christ did is create a new creature that is our state. Our spiritual position. Our nature. It is ever present.