I want to be like Christ.

[oscarkipling]

Well beliefs are usually tested against reality.

So if your faith is actual and true ... often when it's tested ... it will withstand and come out stronger. And if you've been assuming a lot ... when the tests come you will often turn your back on what you used to call "faith" because it will be exposed for what it is.

That's not always the case ... but often. And the Bible tells us that also.

People's assumptions failing them is actually a good thing. Give me real faith any day.

okay i meant an example like, If you believe Jesus is real and alive and its true then I could expect __________ from Dani. But If you believe Jesus is real and alive and its false then i could expect __________ from Dani.

[Dani H]

okay i meant an example like, If you believe Jesus is real and alive and its true then I could expect __________ from Dani. But If you believe Jesus is real and alive and its false then i could expect __________ from Dani.

Well after 20 years .... if Jesus was false and what I've been believing is wrong .. Oscar Kipling could expect to never have MET Dani on a Bible forum after all the testing I've had to endure. Cause ... sheesh.

[oscarkipling]

Well after 20 years .... if Jesus was false and what I've been believing is wrong .. Oscar Kipling could expect to never have MET Dani on a Bible forum after all the testing I've had to endure. Cause ... sheesh.

haha alright, not exactly what I wanted Dani, but as always I appreciate you talking with me.

[Cherish118]

It's not about being a nice person, as you stated there are many non-christians that demonstrait a lot of morals taught in the bible. What it is really about is having truth in your spirit. People are generally pretty perceptive and can tell if someone is truely walking the walk, or just talking the talk. God calls believers to live a life apart from the world, and worldly views. We don't do it for the benefit or glory of men, but for the glory of God, who calls us to live a life that is holly. When people see others living different from the general society it makes them think "What makes them different". A person who has good morals but no faith in God will have his reasons and give his answers as to why. And the person asking the question can take from that what they will. My only hope is that they will ask me so that I can tell them my reason:"that I am the way I am because I have received forgivness and love from my Lord Jesus Christ". And they can take from that what they will.

[oscarkipling]

It's not about being a nice person, as you stated there are many non-christians that demonstrait a lot of morals taught in the bible. What it is really about is having truth in your spirit. People are generally pretty perceptive and can tell if someone is truely walking the walk, or just talking the talk. God calls believers to live a life apart from the world, and worldly views. We don't do it for the benefit or glory of men, but for the glory of God, who calls us to live a life that is holly. When people see others living different from the general society it makes them think "What makes them different". A person who has good morals but no faith in God will have his reasons and give his answers as to why. And the person asking the question can take from that what they will. My only hope is that they will ask me so that I can tell them my reason:"that I am the way I am because I have received forgivness and love from my Lord Jesus Christ". And they can take from that what they will.

well alright, I suppose that's a fair way to look at it.

[sedux]

What I wanted to know was why some Christians seem to think that behaving like Christ is a Good way to get people to believe that Christ is real, and loves them.

I think Christians try to love others as Christ loved them, out of gratitude and thankfulness for what He did for us. It's not our job to try to "convince" anybody or to "change" anybody into believing in Christ, because that is a job that only God can accomplish himself. Only He has the power to transform someone like "Saul" into "Paul".

The other part was, is it honest to behave like Christ and show love in order to convince someone that Christ makes you a better person. If you are showing "love" to people, with the specific intent of getting them to believe a thing which the love is not actually evidence for I think its probably dishonest.

If your motive is about yourself and not Christ, than I would have to agree with you. However, I think by extending love to people, it serves as an opportunity for others to come to know Christ for themselves should they choose to do so.

[Dani H]

I'm not called to persuade you, Oscar. I'm called to compel you to come into the Kingdom. That means I use whatever little influence I may have, trusting God to take that and multiply it some way, enough for it to have some sort of lasting impact on whoever it is I happen to be conversing with.

Having said that, the most compelling force I personally know is love. Which is action and not a bunch of words.

So, at the end of the day, if you don't listen to me ... we still make our own decisions regardless of how compelling something may be. And, often the road to certain decisions is a gradual unfolding. Maybe I get to only walk with you for 2 inches along a road hundreds of miles long ... but I always strive to make it 2 inches to remember Jesus by even though you may not remember me after all it's said and done. Cause it ain't about me anyway.

[Lily]

I do wonder though, it does seem that at least some Christians do feel that they are called to persuade non-believers.

My son and I (both believers) have differing opionions on many issues having nothing to do with religion. I love talking to him because our discussions are, at least for me, usually very thought provoking and stimulating. He expresses what he thinks and argues his point, and I express what I think and argue my point. We both do this in an effort to persuade the other to see things as we do, or from our point of view.

I would venture to say that most people do this with others to some extent, at least. And, although it is not our job as Christians to persuade others to believe, it is a natural thing to try to do. We've been aruguing and expressing opinions to our parents, siblings, friends and others since early childhood. We do it when discussing politics, music, global warming, television shows, family values, dinner, etc. etc.

Not only do we express what we think, but generally we live our lives according to what we think/feel/believe about these topics. We vote a certain way, we listen to the music we enjoy, we eat meat (or not), etc., etc. Not as a dishonest attempt to further persuade others to think as we do, but because that is our opinion of the matters and we act and live accordingly.

Also, I could merely tell my 90 yr old neighbor who is out sweeping her driveway that I love her as I walk by, but if I take over a couple of glasses of iced tea and a broom and then sit down and enjoy some conversation with her when we're through, she'll reap the benefits of that love. That is what's important to God - that those He loves are loved and cared for in the actual sense.

Could someone who doesn't believe in Jesus do the same for my neighbor. Yes, and I know there are many who would. Either way, God/Love is glorified.

And I do agree with you and others, in that if our motivation to be "Christ-like" is done so only as an attempt to persuade and convince, and aside from any genuine faith, joy, and love for God and others, then that, in fact, is dishonest and does nothing to convey the truth about who God is.

[oscarkipling]

I'm not called to persuade you, Oscar. I'm called to compel you to come into the Kingdom. That means I use whatever little influence I may have, trusting God to take that and multiply it some way, enough for it to have some sort of lasting impact on whoever it is I happen to be conversing with.

Having said that, the most compelling force I personally know is love. Which is action and not a bunch of words.

So, at the end of the day, if you don't listen to me ... we still make our own decisions regardless of how compelling something may be. And, often the road to certain decisions is a gradual unfolding. Maybe I get to only walk with you for 2 inches along a road hundreds of miles long ... but I always strive to make it 2 inches to remember Jesus by even though you may not remember me after all it's said and done. Cause it ain't about me anyway.

I get what you are saying Dani, I guess what might be happening here with your view, is that mine is different. What I mean is that I think we might believe different things about what love can do or what role it plays when it comes to certain situations, specifically when it comes to truth. The other thing is I might have a much less nuanced view of compelling vs persuading, in my mind they are synonymous as I think they both work to nudge another mind toward...or away from some idea. I believe you are saying that you are called to nudge a person into a position where they can then be able to be open to a supernatural experience with God. I guess that might be a place I find much murkier than you do, and so that trickles down through the entire process making the ideas hard to process.

[oscarkipling]

My son and I (both believers) have differing opionions on many issues having nothing to do with religion. I love talking to him because our discussions are, at least for me, usually very thought provoking and stimulating. He expresses what he thinks and argues his point, and I express what I think and argue my point. We both do this in an effort to persuade the other to see things as we do, or from our point of view.

I would venture to say that most people do this with others to some extent, at least. And, although it is not our job as Christians to persuade others to believe, it is a natural thing to try to do. We've been aruguing and expressing opinions to our parents, siblings, friends and others since early childhood. We do it when discussing politics, music, global warming, television shows, family values, dinner, etc. etc.

Not only do we express what we think, but generally we live our lives according to what we think/feel/believe about these topics. We vote a certain way, we listen to the music we enjoy, we eat meat (or not), etc., etc. Not as a dishonest attempt to further persuade others to think as we do, but because that is our opinion of the matters and we act and live accordingly.

Also, I could merely tell my 90 yr old neighbor who is out sweeping her driveway that I love her as I walk by, but if I take over a couple of glasses of iced tea and a broom and then sit down and enjoy some conversation with her when we're through, she'll reap the benefits of that love. That is what's important to God - that those He loves are loved and cared for in the actual sense.

Could someone who doesn't believe in Jesus do the same for my neighbor. Yes, and I know there are many who would. Either way, God/Love is glorified.

And I do agree with you and others, in that if our motivation to be "Christ-like" is done so only as an attempt to persuade and convince, and aside from any genuine faith, joy, and love for God and others, then that, in fact, is dishonest and does nothing to convey the truth about who God is.

I dont really have a response to this as I think its perfect. I dont think that there is any dishonesty in what you've described, as I said a few posts ago, I think its possible that I've misunderstood what was meant or that i did understand but no one here holds to that view.

[Dani H]

I get what you are saying Dani, I guess what might be happening here with your view, is that mine is different. What I mean is that I think we might believe different things about what love can do or what role it plays when it comes to certain situations, specifically when it comes to truth. The other thing is I might have a much less nuanced view of compelling vs persuading, in my mind they are synonymous as I think they both work to nudge another mind toward...or away from some idea. I believe you are saying that you are called to nudge a person into a position where they can then be able to be open to a supernatural experience with God. I guess that might be a place I find much murkier than you do, and so that trickles down through the entire process making the ideas hard to process.

I believe that when the Bible says we are all created in God's image ... it's because we are. So I do believe it's entirely possible even for a person who claims no formal belief in God, to show love and kindness and concern for another person. So that is proof to me that we were all created in His image and are capable of showing love.

However, Jesus did say "if you only love those who love you, how are you any different? anyone can do that."

So as believers and followers of Christ, we're definitely commanded to show love towards those we would consider our enemies, and to not repay people in kind but to uphold one and the same standard of love, toward everyone, all the time.

There's love and then there's love. God loves ALL ... whether they're His friends or enemies or don't even understand He is real. He lets His sun shines on the just and unjust, that is what Jesus said. God's creation is for the benefit of everyone, alike, because He has no special affinity and preferences and isn't a nepotist, and so in that way His love goes beyond human limits and is all encompassing. That is the love believers in Christ are called to. No prejudgment, blank slate, and everyone is valued alike, even those we would have no natural affinity toward, or feel threatened by or who may seek to wipe us off the face of the earth with a smile on their face thinking they're doing "God" a favor, or for whatever warped reasons people to to each other what they do.

Jesus perfectly modeled that all-encompassing love by talking to whoever, whenever, however, regardless of state or status or station; those things just didn't matter to Him. He sought forgiveness for His killers even while He was being crucified, died for even those hostile toward Him and gave His life for their redemption just the same.

That to me is quite sobering and issues a level of challenge to me personally that is going to take the rest of my life here to understand, grasp and live out. Because I don't have a natural bone in my body that enables me to live that way and so it has to be done by God's power.

There have been those throughout history who have shown us how that's done. My hat is off to all of them, because without them, I shudder to think about what people are capable of and what this world is coming to. Left to our own devices, I've no issue believing that the human race would simply self-destruct. Because while we're all made in God's image and capable of love, we're also fallen and capable of great evil. So which way are we going to choose to go? That's the question. I don't think we fully realize the preserving work God has been doing on this earth all along, that is borne out by the fact that humans still exist, and in a greater quantity than ever before even with all the death and destruction we're capable of. There's 2 sides to every coin, right? So we have to look at the whole picture here and not just one angle of it even though what I just addressed might be a bit depressing and uncomfortable; but it's nonetheless real.

So I dunno in what way you may receive that but it definitely does come into play in line with your original post, I believe.

[oscarkipling]

I believe that when the Bible says we are all created in God's image ... it's because we are. So I do believe it's entirely possible even for a person who claims no formal belief in God, to show love and kindness and concern for another person. So that is proof to me that we were all created in His image and are capable of showing love.

However, Jesus did say "if you only love those who love you, how are you any different? anyone can do that."

So as believers and followers of Christ, we're definitely commanded to show love towards those we would consider our enemies, and to not repay people in kind but to uphold one and the same standard of love, toward everyone, all the time.

There's love and then there's love. God loves ALL ... whether they're His friends or enemies or don't even understand He is real. He lets His sun shines on the just and unjust, that is what Jesus said. God's creation is for the benefit of everyone, alike, because He has no special affinity and preferences and isn't a nepotist, and so in that way His love goes beyond human limits and is all encompassing. That is the love believers in Christ are called to. No prejudgment, blank slate, and everyone is valued alike, even those we would have no natural affinity toward, or feel threatened by or who may seek to wipe us off the face of the earth with a smile on their face thinking they're doing "God" a favor, or for whatever warped reasons people to to each other what they do.

Jesus perfectly modeled that all-encompassing love by talking to whoever, whenever, however, regardless of state or status or station; those things just didn't matter to Him. He sought forgiveness for His killers even while He was being crucified, died for even those hostile toward Him and gave His life for their redemption just the same.

That to me is quite sobering and issues a level of challenge to me personally that is going to take the rest of my life here to understand, grasp and live out. Because I don't have a natural bone in my body that enables me to live that way and so it has to be done by God's power.

There have been those throughout history who have shown us how that's done. My hat is off to all of them, because without them, I shudder to think about what people are capable of and what this world is coming to. Left to our own devices, I've no issue believing that the human race would simply self-destruct. Because while we're all made in God's image and capable of love, we're also fallen and capable of great evil. So which way are we going to choose to go? That's the question. I don't think we fully realize the preserving work God has been doing on this earth all along, that is borne out by the fact that humans still exist, and in a greater quantity than ever before even with all the death and destruction we're capable of. There's 2 sides to every coin, right? So we have to look at the whole picture here and not just one angle of it even though what I just addressed might be a bit depressing and uncomfortable; but it's nonetheless real.

So I dunno in what way you may receive that but it definitely does come into play in line with your original post, I believe.

I think, probably this might be getting into where I again diverge from what a christian might mean by love, and what I might mean. I can easily imagine valuing the life of others above my own, even people that I've never known and will never meet. I can imagine altruism, and universal respect.I can imagine acting and even genuinely wanting to act in a way that whoever i come into contact with is left better, happier, or edified. I can imagine living in a way that would benefit and contribute to the prosperity of people that will live many thousands of years after I'm dead...but I can't imagine what more it could mean to love those people. It doesn't make sense to me that there is something beyond this, that christian love exceeds even this in any way that is of any consequence. I think when I said the supernatural is murky to me this is what I meant (at least partially). I suppose you do feel that your love, or God's love through you pales this by comparison. I fell that you must, because if this is the extent of it, then it must have been a lack of imagination by your pre-christian self that kept you from such hopes and musings. I have trouble imagining that I'm uniquely capable of such thoughts, and utterly common in my inability to execute. As a christian, even this completely natural yet lofty goal is outside of your reach, you will never live in the way I've described, Just as you will never live in a manner that is completely Christlike (whatever else that could mean). I guess, I just dont understand, and perhaps as I've been told before, it is beyond me...but i have yet to find a way to distinguish my crazy unreachable ideas from those of Christ.....well okay i take that back, Shepard did mention miracles, but then i haven't seen any of those.

[Lily]

I dont really have a response to this as I think its perfect.

Will you be my son?

If only my discussions with him went so well...

I dont think that there is any dishonesty in what you've described, as I said a few posts ago, I think its possible that I've misunderstood what was meant or that i did understand but no one here holds to that view.

Our understanding of love and, subsequently, what it means to be Christ-like varies, even among Christians. Maybe you misunderstood. Maybe we misunderstood you. Based on your posts you seem to have a good grasp of how God wants us to love each other. I think your point was that even Christians, who supposedly have Christ's love working in them through the Holy Spirit, don't seem to have the perfect love for each other that we can, as you said, "imagine." And you're right, we don't. We don't each love God and each other as genuinely and perfectly as He loves us. And because we don't (speaking of man in general here) we're not in the koinonia relationship He desires for us to be.

He did, however, provide a way of Himself (because He's also a relational being), to bring us back in to that type of communion with Him and each other. And when we enter into that relationship we find that more and more we want to love others more perfectly, like He loves us, and that we want others in that relationship, too.

Anyway, this is probably where we start to differ in beliefs. And I must be off to work, so I'll spare you my thoughts and perhaps save them for another day.

[Dani H]

I think, probably this might be getting into where I again diverge from what a christian might mean by love, and what I might mean. I can easily imagine valuing the life of others above my own, even people that I've never known and will never meet. I can imagine altruism, and universal respect.I can imagine acting and even genuinely wanting to act in a way that whoever i come into contact with is left better, happier, or edified. I can imagine living in a way that would benefit and contribute to the prosperity of people that will live many thousands of years after I'm dead...but I can't imagine what more it could mean to love those people.

Seems to me that you have a pretty firm grasp on love.

Does it surprise you that you would have that kind of understanding, not being a professed believer in God/Jesus? Because with the little bit I know about your background, it doesn't surprise me at all actually.

And, do you put those things you just said into practice daily?

[oscarkipling]

Seems to me that you have a pretty firm grasp on love.

Does it surprise you that you would have that kind of understanding, not being a professed believer in God/Jesus? Because with the little bit I know about your background, it doesn't surprise me at all actually.

And, do you put those things you just said into practice daily?

Well, it does and doesn't surprise me. I mean I was under the impression that Christians thought there was some supernatural element to love, but if this is what it means, then I think pretty much any and everyone has the capacity to understand it. As far as putting it in practice daily...haha well, I'm not so good at it, I try of course, and fail of course . I think that one of the things that I need to do is discover how I fit into such a life. What I mean is, I have certain things that I'm good at, but i'm unclear about how to put those things to this purpose. That is not to say that my biggest problem is that I haven't figured out how to use my awesome mind shattering talents for good . I think immaturity, laziness, temper, arrogance, depression and Skyrim more often keep me from being what I could be. So, I suck at it, but I also work at it.