I want to be like Christ.

[oscarkipling]

I suppose this idea has come up many times in my time here, but I guess I've just been thinking about it recently. It seems that many Christians believe that the most effective means of evangelism is living as Christ would want them to, or attempting to be Christ-like. Obviously walking around blatantly and consistently disregarding the golden rule and being an all around heel probably wont entice anyone over to your view, and directly contradicts all that business with the "fruits". However this behavior can be easily explained away with the old Scotsman, which if Christianity is true, isn't a fallacy at all. That is to say, a Christian will necessarily and for the most part display behavior consistent with christianhood. This outward display though, hmm I tend to think that outside of all the talk about Jesus, and spirits and the other religious vernacular the behavior is indistinguishable from a mature, contemplative, kind and caring person...Or it appears that this is the ideal. I am completely open to correction, but it appears that the only things that distinguishes a Christian from that other person that I described is their beliefs about the reasons for their behavior. I suppose some Christians may believe that when they act in a christlike manner that they are actually exuding some actual supernatural power that has the ability change hearts and minds, which if that is the case , then I suppose believing that this is the best form of evangelism is in some sense reasonable. I often hear the argument that Christlike behavior indicates to nonbelievers that Jesus can actually change a person. Whether Jesus is real (or really a supernatural being) or not, I have no doubt that believing he is can change a person's behavior. I think though that this sometimes comes off as a bit dishonest. That is if a person is behaving in this way in order to give the impression that Jesus is the force that catalyzed them into behaving this way then its not really what they hope it appears to be, right? I think this is what most made me create this thread. Is showing "love" so that other people will believe that God compels or facilitates people's ability or desire to love an honest thing to do? Its not dishonest in the strictest sense, If God wants you to love in order to get more people into heaven, then it is true that you are compelled to love by God. I think though the impression that one wants to give off is that being a christian makes a person want to be better and more loving because being better and more loving is simply a better, happier more productive way to live. I guess I just think its weird that its ever given out as advice to people who hope to evangelize, because its what Christians are suppose to want to do anyway by virtue of being Christians, correct? Its akin to saying, "dont do anything that you weren't going to do anyway"...which on its face is a bit silly I think for obvious reasons....but then another less obvious one. That is unless you are being unnaturally kind (supernaturally kind, not that anyone would even know what that would look like), There isn't really any compelling reason to believe that your behavior supports a wide array of supernatural claims...it does not follow. This behavior "test" is trivial in that you cannot distinguish a natural (believing) from a supernatural (???) cause with a reasonable degree of certainty...not to mention other belief systems when stripped of their respective supernatural claims can essentially replicate this type of behavior. So, what makes people think that this is the most effective means of evangelism?

[Dani H]

What's wrong with having a solid role model?

Being a Christian, at its basic level, is to follow Christ's teaching. That means Jesus is my role model and I look to His example, take His words to heart, and seek to emulate Him and do what He says.

It obviously goes further than that but ... again, what's wrong with Jesus as a role model, and in what way is that dishonest?

Everyone has role models, whether we admit that to ourselves or not. We all have people in our lives about whom we tell ourselves "I want to be like ..." or "I will never be like ..." whether those people are dead or alive. The left an impact on us and we've integrated them into our psyche in some way. So how is that any different when it's Jesus?

[oscarkipling]

What's wrong with having a solid role model?

Being a Christian, at its basic level, is to follow Christ's teaching. That means Jesus is my role model and I look to His example, take His words to heart, and seek to emulate Him and do what He says.

It obviously goes further than that but ... again, what's wrong with Jesus as a role model, and in what way is that dishonest?

Everyone has role models, whether we admit that to ourselves or not. We all have people in our lives about whom we tell ourselves "I want to be like ..." or "I will never be like ..." whether those people are dead or alive. The left an impact on us and we've integrated them into our psyche in some way. So how is that any different when it's Jesus?

well, no I didn't mean that Christ is or isn't a good rolemodel, Its just that Its irrelevant to whether he's real or not therefore behaving like Christ isn't good evidence that Christ is God or even real. I could model my life after Sherlock Holmes, and be really effective at solving crimes, but the fact that I can imitate Sherlock Holmes doesn't mean that he actually existed. What I wanted to know was why some Christians seem to think that behaving like Christ is a Good way to get people to believe that Christ is real, and loves them.

The other part was, is it honest to behave like Christ and show love in order to convince someone that Christ makes you a better person. If you are showing "love" to people, with the specific intent of getting them to believe a thing which the love is not actually evidence for I think its probably dishonest. Its sort of like when someone treats you extra nice so that you will do a favor for them....or like when a politician makes a pandering speech to a demographic whose votes they want.... you know? If its simply that being a christian makes a genuine supernatural change in a person so that they actually do care more, and love more and are kinder, then that's great, but it hardly seems like it could be true if Christians are consistently using it as "advice" for how to lure people into Christianity. Even if it is true, i find it hard to understand how it could be distinguished from a person who didn't actually believe in Jesus, but did believe that his described behavior was a good thing to emulate.

[shepherdsword]

There is some truth in the OP. To truly see the transforming power of Christ requires that you knew the person before they began to follow Christ. I have come a long way when it comes to behavior. I was a pagan seeker of only my own pleasure at one time. In my own eyes I could do no wrong and would not accept any correction.Gradually,little by little, I began to be transformed. Those that knew me before were amazed.


That being said,I admit that there are better people,in the natural with more mature behavior who don't know Christ. Sad but true.
The difference is that in God's eyes,I am covered by the blood of Jesus. Perhaps this makes little difference to the casual observer but then,sometimes,deep emotional damage takes a long time to heal.

Wouldn't it be amazing if we lived in a world where everyone loved each other to the extent that they always preferred others over themselves? Where all selfish motivation was put to death and in it's place was a concern only for what is best for us all? I think that is the prime example of Christ's love and most of us don't meet that standard.
If we did then our behavior could not be defined by any other term other than "supernatural"

[oscarkipling]

There is some truth in the OP. To truly see the transforming power of Christ requires that you knew the person before they began to follow Christ. I have come a long way when it comes to behavior. I was a pagan seeker of only my own pleasure at one time. In my own eyes I could do no wrong and would not accept any correction.Gradually,little by little, I began to be transformed. Those that knew me before were amazed.


That being said,I admit that there are better people,in the natural with more mature behavior who don't know Christ. Sad but true.
The difference is that in God's eyes,I am covered by the blood of Jesus. Perhaps this makes little difference to the casual observer but then,sometimes,deep emotional damage takes a long time to heal.

Wouldn't it be amazing if we lived in a world where everyone loved each other to the extent that they always preferred others over themselves? Where all selfish motivation was put to death and in it's place was a concern only for what is best for us all? I think that is the prime example of Christ's love and most of us don't meet that standard.
If we did then our behavior could not be defined by any other term other than "supernatural"

Well, I think I said it in my original post, Its not hard to believe that believing in Christ can change a person's behavior and outlook. A change in behavior can indicate simply that a person actually believes Christianity, but does not necessarily indicate that Christianity is true. While I'm sure people are amazed by your transformation, do you think that it is the best tool you have to help bring people to Christ? Do you think that its reasonable to believe that a thing is true, because it caused a change in behavior in someone? You said that its possible that your transformation makes little difference to a casual observer, is this just a figure of speech, or do you mean that a more meticulous observation would make a difference?


I dont know that the only explanation would be supernature, It actually seems like a good strategy with some very obvious advantages. There are good reasons for such a society to develop in a completely secular context...now if it instantly happened to everyone simultaneously tomorrow that would be pretty hard to explain...but then I'd probably be so happy, and busy contributing to society that I wouldn't care. Idk, I mean I get what you are saying on all counts, but still I think its not really outside of the realm of stuff that can happen without supernatural intervention you know?

[IMINXTC]

Right. The "supernatural" abides in the word. So the church is directed to preach the Gospel while living in such a way as to demonstrate the truth of the Gospel. But only the word is capable of reaching the conscience and bringing faith. Our actions often prove to be inconsistent, relative and unreliable.

The trick, so to speak is to separate salvation from mere religion. The former requires a miracle while anyone can subscribe to the latter.

[oscarkipling]

Right. The "supernatural" abides in the word. So the church is directed to preach the Gospel while living in such a way as to demonstrate the truth of the Gospel. But only the word is capable of reaching the conscience and bringing faith. Our actions often prove to be inconsistent, relative and unreliable.

The trick, so to speak is to separate salvation from mere religion. The former requires a miracle while anyone can subscribe to the latter.

that would be quite a trick, how does one distinguish the 2 through behavior?

[shepherdsword]

Well, I think I said it in my original post, Its not hard to believe that believing in Christ can change a person's behavior and outlook. A change in behavior can indicate simply that a person actually believes Christianity, but does not necessarily indicate that Christianity is true. While I'm sure people are amazed by your transformation, do you think that it is the best tool you have to help bring people to Christ? Do you think that its reasonable to believe that a thing is true, because it caused a change in behavior in someone? You said that its possible that your transformation makes little difference to a casual observer, is this just a figure of speech, or do you mean that a more meticulous observation would make a difference?


I dont know that the only explanation would be supernature, It actually seems like a good strategy with some very obvious advantages. There are good reasons for such a society to develop in a completely secular context...now if it instantly happened to everyone simultaneously tomorrow that would be pretty hard to explain...but then I'd probably be so happy, and busy contributing to society that I wouldn't care. Idk, I mean I get what you are saying on all counts, but still I think its not really outside of the realm of stuff that can happen without supernatural intervention you know?

I get the point. After all Muslims and Buddhists exhibit a change of behavior that is simply a result in a change of philosophy. That of course means that a life that is Christ-like isn't enough to persuade many. In that you have well spoken. Only the Father, himself can draw others to Christ. What a Christlike life can do,is set an example that gives some validity to the inner drawing process God uses to draw people to himself. I believe that there is a hallmark or stamp that God uses when a person has demonstrated the life of Christ to the point of pleasing the Father. Christ simply means "anointed". Therefore to be "christian" should mean that the one who claims this title has some "anointing" as well.Not a personal one mind you but one that flows from Jesus himself,the only one who is truly anointed. The difference between a change in behavior that results from accepting christ and let's say a muslim convert,is that a christian becomes intimately connected and joined to Christ himself. There is an inner life that brings deeper and richer meaning to our existence. This "life" or "anointing" so to speak should splash off on others so they are refreshed. A demonstration such as that can definitely be used as a tool to enrich and lead others. However,that is only a demonstration at the first level,all of us who name Christ should have that. At deeper levels that same anointing can heal the sick,cast out "devils" and perform other such wonders as God has preordained. Very few of us press in enough to arrive at that level. We get content with our own experience of refreshing or basic anointing and forget that God desires to perform his wonders through us as a testimony of the reality in Christ. This is sad because it limits our testimony to the same level as a Buddhists or Muslim who has changed only because of a change in ideas. A true demonstration of the nature of Christ coupled with his wonder working and miraculous power would be difficult to deny. You will hear varying opinions on this as not all christians believe that God still performs wonders today. That is also sad.

[oscarkipling]

I get the point. After all Muslims and Buddhists exhibit a change of behavior that is simply a result in a change of philosophy. That of course means that a life that is Christ-like isn't enough to persuade many. In that you have well spoken. Only the Father, himself can draw others to Christ. What a Christlike life can do,is set an example that gives some validity to the inner drawing process God uses to draw people to himself. I believe that there is a hallmark or stamp that God uses when a person has demonstrated the life of Christ to the point of pleasing the Father. Christ simply means "anointed". Therefore to be "christian" should mean that the one who claims this title has some "anointing" as well.Not a personal one mind you but one that flows from Jesus himself,the only one who is truly anointed. The difference between a change in behavior that results from accepting christ and let's say a muslim convert,is that a christian becomes intimately connected and joined to Christ himself. There is an inner life that brings deeper and richer meaning to our existence. This "life" or "anointing" so to speak should splash off on others so they are refreshed. A demonstration such as that can definitely be used as a tool to enrich and lead others. However,that is only a demonstration at the first level,all of us who name Christ should have that. At deeper levels that same anointing can heal the sick,cast out "devils" and perform other such wonders as God has preordained. Very few of us press in enough to arrive at that level. We get content with our own experience of refreshing or basic anointing and forget that God desires to perform his wonders through us as a testimony of the reality in Christ. This is sad because it limits our testimony to the same level as a Buddhists or Muslim who has changed only because of a change in ideas. A true demonstration of the nature of Christ coupled with his wonder working and miraculous power would be difficult to deny. You will hear varying opinions on this as not all christians believe that God still performs wonders today. That is also sad.

I respect you, and I think you are a genuine in your belief in God, but this looks to me like much labored nothing. Anointing, wonders, what can i expect from these things. I once tried orchestrate a wonder, and to this day I am waiting for it to come to a head. perhaps you could describe whet a wonder could look like?

[shepherdsword]

I respect you, and I think you are a genuine in your belief in God, but this looks to me like much labored nothing. Anointing, wonders, what can i expect from these things. I once tried orchestrate a wonder, and to this day I am waiting for it to come to a head. perhaps you could describe whet a wonder could look like?

I would consider a wonder to be a supernatural event that defied all natural explanation. The raising of the dead for instance or the regrowing of an amputated limb in the name of Jesus. Such a demonstration would give much credence to our claims of the authority of Christ,would it not? In wanting to be like Christ(the title of the thread) it is important to also desire that God validates our truth with such wonders.I think my point on this is relevant to the discussion.
I apologize for my use of such spiritual terms as "anointing' "wonders" and such. I guess that I had a gut feeling that you have been around us long enough to know our vernacular use of such terms.

[oscarkipling]

I would consider a wonder to be a supernatural event that defied all natural explanation. The raising of the dead for instance or the regrowing of an amputated limb in the name of Jesus. Such a demonstration would give much credence to our claims of the authority of Christ,would it not? In wanting to be like Christ(the title of the thread) it is important to also desire that God validates our truth with such wonders.I think my point on this is relevant to the discussion.
I apologize for my use of such spiritual terms as "anointing' "wonders" and such. I guess that I had a gut feeling that you have been around us long enough to know our vernacular use of such terms.

well, I think its fair that you would expect me to know what you meant but then again I do sometimes find that people have some differing opinions on what constitutes a wonder or a miracle, I remember once someone mentioning that they prayed for traffic to clear up, and when it did clear up they considered that a miracle. but yeah , raising the dead or regrowing limbs, I'd consider that miraculous too. I think if people mean that performing such miracles would be the best evangelical tool, then I cant help but agree.

[Dani H]

well, no I didn't mean that Christ is or isn't a good rolemodel, Its just that Its irrelevant to whether he's real or not therefore behaving like Christ isn't good evidence that Christ is God or even real. I could model my life after Sherlock Holmes, and be really effective at solving crimes, but the fact that I can imitate Sherlock Holmes doesn't mean that he actually existed. What I wanted to know was why some Christians seem to think that behaving like Christ is a Good way to get people to believe that Christ is real, and loves them.

I can dress like Sherlock Holmes and speak the Queen's English and take up his mannerisms as displayed in Sir Doyle's novels. I may even have a knack for logic and solving crimes. I happen to be a fan of Sherlock Holmes and I've read all the novels I could get my hands on, so I really appreciate this.

But, at some point the emulation breaks down and I have of necessity to relegate myself to the idea I have of Mr. Holmes in my own head. Because he's not real and I can't call him on the phone to get his aid in certain real life situations.

Jesus being real, however, it doesn't matter what situation I find myself in. I can always get help from Him, and I never have to relegate myself to any sort of image in my own head or find myself without real answers for real situations.

However, underneath it all, I don't emulate Christ to get others to believe He is real. God is His own proof. I still have Jesus as my role model when nobody is around, because this really is ultimately about reality and truth. When truth is truth, it's real 24/7, regardless of who watches and who doesn't. Because truth is its own proof.

I believe I get what you're saying now. But, the ultimate burden of proof is on God, not me. My burden is to submit to His authority and live like I am told to live and be faithful to my Lord. That's it. Because I can't save anyone. However, God will use my life to speak to others, and honestly, He usually does it when I'm not even noticing; I'm just living my life as I know how and as He shows me and go about my business.

I know the transformation in my life is real, lasting and true. It goes beyond human ability to modify behavior and copycat a person. I know who I used to be; I know who I am now. I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that there is no way I could have accomplished this on my own just by reading a book and copying a fictional character. I mean seriously, I can't even stick to an exercise program for more than 2 weeks at a time. So my commitment level ... not so very high, and never has been. But this Jesus thing ... it's different and completely contrary to who I am as a natural person left to my own devices.

Also, if I really wanted to emulate Jesus and become a true copycat then I'd be cutting my hair short and don a robe and wear sandals a la 2000 years ago and speak Aramaic. Obviously I am a woman and live in today's America, speaking English, and so that can't be it. Therefore it's not an outward thing and it's not a human level behavioral change that can be taken off again like a temporary costume. It's a true transformatory process of one's character, the changing of one's ideas and ideals, the realigning of one's standards and the submission to a greater authority in the face of a culture that mostly runs opposite.

[Lily]

"Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words." - origin unknown (but often attributed to St Francis of Assisi)

The idea, of course, is that actions speak louder (and often more genuinely) than words.

Consider young David, still a shepherd boy who said of Goliath, "Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the Living God?...This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand...that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel." Then he acted... he pulled out his slingshot and slew David with a stone.

Consider also Paul who says that he has learned to be content in whatever circumstance he finds himself. Then he acted... he rejoiced while in prison.

And consider Jesus who said "God so loves the world..." Then He acted... He demonstrated it with His sacrifice on the cross.

So many others to consider and none of them acted merely to back up their statements. They did it because they did have faith, because they were happy, because they did love. It should be the same for every Christian. "Living as Christ would want us to," or "attempting to be more Christ-like" shouldn't be an act that we put on (though in some difficult circumstances we may find ourselves acting only out of obedience and trust for a while). But there is a maturing process (perhaps better described as a humbling process) and we do become more and more Christ-like as we come to know Him better, some of us quicker than others. But the hope is that when others see us (if our love, joy and faith are genuine, God's grace is upon us, and we're naturally more like Jesus) they will want What we have - Whom we've told them about and Whom they see in us - Christ Jesus.

[oscarkipling]

"Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary, use words." - origin unknown (but often attributed to St Francis of Assisi)

The idea, of course, is that actions speak louder (and often more genuinely) than words.

Consider young David, still a shepherd boy who said of Goliath, "Who is this uncircumcised Philistine that he should defy the armies of the Living God?...This day will the Lord deliver thee into mine hand...that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel." Then he acted... he pulled out his slingshot and slew David with a stone.

Consider also Paul who says that he has learned to be content in whatever circumstance he finds himself. Then he acted... he rejoiced while in prison.

And consider Jesus who said "God so loves the world..." Then He acted... He demonstrated it with His sacrifice on the cross.

So many others to consider and none of them acted merely to back up their statements. They did it because they did have faith, because they were happy, because they did love. It should be the same for every Christian. "Living as Christ would want us to," or "attempting to be more Christ-like" shouldn't be an act that we put on (though in some difficult circumstances we may find ourselves acting only out of obedience and trust for a while). But there is a maturing process (perhaps better described as a humbling process) and we do become more and more Christ-like as we come to know Him better, some of us quicker than others. But the hope is that when others see us (if our love, joy and faith are genuine, God's grace is upon us, and we're naturally more like Jesus) they will want What we have - Whom we've told them about and Whom they see in us - Christ Jesus.

well, i never intended to suggest that actions dont indicate a strong belief, but just that they dont indicate the truth of that belief.

[markedward]

I want to be like Christ.

Then do it. What's stopping you?

You know his teachings, right? Heal the sick. Give to the poor. Clothe the naked. Feed the hungry. Shelter the homeless. Care for the orphans and widows. Love others as you love yourself. Love God. Proclaim the gospel of the kingdom.