Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

[Buddy]

A comment on this statement made by the Lord:

"Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

He is speaking about the future and ultimate destiny of those who have rejected Him [the surviving goats of the coming tribulation in this case for example], and the believing sheep that He will find when He comes to separate at the end of the tribulation of those days

This is true of all who reject, or believe ..... those who refuse to believe the truth about Him [the tares] [Matthew 13:36-43; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8] and those who believe in and follow Him for eternal salvation [Revelation 21:3-7]

He is not speaking about the experience of the entrance by the believing mortal sheep into His coming millennial kingdom on this present earth or to the fate of the goats who are found in unbelief who will not enter this kingdom on the earth, but to the ultimate destiny of both for eternity

His millennial kingdom will be part of this present world on this present earth .... then will come the ultimate destiny of all believers and all unbelievers, and He is going to restore the creation to its original setting for those who believe ..... the tares [the spirits of all of the unbelieving dead from the beginning of human creation] will not continue into His eternal kingdom of the new heavens and new earth

Here is the sequence as defined in Revelation:
The pre-tribulation setting on the earth at this time
The tribulation of His wrath and judgment which will last for 2550 days
His millennial kingdom on this present earth of mortals for 1000 years
His eternal kingdom of immortals with new heavens and a new earth

Matthew 25-46 should be read in conjunction with Revelation 20:11-15 and 21:1-8 .... this is the Lord's view of the human's ultimate destiny

Ezekiel 40-48 is a view of His coming millennial kingdom on this earth [just after His period of wrath and judgment upon the earth] which will be of mortals under His personal rule from Jerusalem [Joel 3:14-21; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 14

He will restore the kingdom to Israel and rule for 1000 years in person [Acts 1:6] .... and His immortal church of today will rule with Him over this kingdom and beyond [Revelation 1:5-6; 5:9-10; 20:4 .... those on thrones [the pre-tribulation church] .... and those who become believers during the coming tribulation period and are killed for their faith]

[billy-brown 2]

BB2 asks:

"In other words, if "we are the temple" and so on, then we are not the "millennium temple" at all . . .

Does this make sense?"


Of course it makes sense

What doesn't make sense and at the same time is a departure from the full scriptural connotations used to define "temples" is when one insists upon only one type of temple definition thereby excluding all others

Anyone who has a comprehensive understanding of the scriptures knows that there are different definitions for "temples" and all of them exist in parallel over time and these do not replace one another thereby ending up with only one exclusive definition of a "temple"

This is what you seem to be implying

When I see this motivation used, as it appears that you are doing, I immediately place the carrier as suspect of promoting a proprietary religious dogma

I believe that you know there are various definitions and different types of "temples" recorded in scripture, so I would have to tell you that I can see your game which does not impress me

What are you up to?

But Buddy,

The OP is dealing with Ezekiel's Temple. Ezekiel's Temple is a VISION. You need not read anything else into it than that.

Now Paul mentioned that "we are the temple" in I Cor. 6:16. And the other temples that have been on the earth are 1) Zerubabbel's temple and 2) Solomon's Temple.

Also, there has been the tabernacle in the wilderness, and the heavenly tabernacle of Heb. 8 is its model.

Thus, we have the four earthly "facilities" below:

"Facility" 1) The Tabernacle in the Wilderness ( . . . this was replaced by Solomon's Temple).

"Facility" 2) Solomon's Temple ( . . . this was destroyed long ago).

"Facility" 3) Zerubbabel's/Herod's Temple (These are put together because Herod's Temple was an expansion of Zerubbabel's Temple-- this was destroyed long ago).

"Facility" 4) The Church of Jesus Christ (the current "earthly Temple").

And these are the only "facilities" (other than the heavenly tabernacle of Heb. 8) that have been (or are) functional in mankind's history.

That's it . . . do you agree?

[Fenris]

Fenris, since I'm thinking you likely understand things to a greater degree than a lot of us, pertaining to the OT, could you then give some examples of the ordinances and statutes that they will be walking in and doing? I'm just curious as to whether the church also walks in these ordinances and statutes and are then doing them.

Those would be the laws in the bible, naturally.

The modern day "Church" (Christians, presumably) follow some and not others. But then, they aren't obligated to follow them. The law was given to the Jews.

[Fenris]

"Great, maybe someone can explain these cryptic verses to me."

I can Fenris

The passage of scripture that you quote must be interpreted literally and is among several that forecast the Lord's intent with His national people Israel at the end of this present age

I agree. It is some events yet to come.

[billy-brown 2]

A comment on this statement made by the Lord:

"Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

He is speaking about the future and ultimate destiny of those who have rejected Him [the surviving goats of the coming tribulation in this case for example], and the believing sheep that He will find when He comes to separate at the end of the tribulation of those days

This is true of all who reject, or believe ..... those who refuse to believe the truth about Him [the tares] [Matthew 13:36-43; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8] and those who believe in and follow Him for eternal salvation [Revelation 21:3-7]

He is not speaking about the experience of the entrance by the believing mortal sheep into His coming millennial kingdom on this present earth or to the fate of the goats who are found in unbelief who will not enter this kingdom on the earth, but to the ultimate destiny of both for eternity

His millennial kingdom will be part of this present world on this present earth .... then will come the ultimate destiny of all believers and all unbelievers, and He is going to restore the creation to its original setting for those who believe ..... the tares [the spirits of all of the unbelieving dead from the beginning of human creation] will not continue into His eternal kingdom of the new heavens and new earth

Here is the sequence as defined in Revelation:
The pre-tribulation setting on the earth at this time
The tribulation of His wrath and judgment which will last for 2550 days
His millennial kingdom on this present earth of mortals for 1000 years
His eternal kingdom of immortals with new heavens and a new earth

Matthew 25-46 should be read in conjunction with Revelation 20:11-15 and 21:1-8 .... this is the Lord's view of the human's ultimate destiny

Ezekiel 40-48 is a view of His coming millennial kingdom on this earth [just after His period of wrath and judgment upon the earth] which will be of mortals under His personal rule from Jerusalem [Joel 3:14-21; Micah 4; 5; Zechariah 14

He will restore the kingdom to Israel and rule for 1000 years in person [Acts 1:6] .... and His immortal church of today will rule with Him over this kingdom and beyond [Revelation 1:5-6; 5:9-10; 20:4 .... those on thrones [the pre-tribulation church] .... and those who become believers during the coming tribulation period and are killed for their faith]

Hi Buddy,

divaD indicates in the OP that we should "get to the bottom of Eze. 40-48" and so on.

I feel that we need to remember that the temple VISION of Ezekiel 40-48 was given to Ezekiel as a set of instructions for the exiles in Babylon to obey the statues of the law of Moses.

That's all.

And this VISION was given during year 25 of the 70-year Babylonian captivity of Judah, yes?

But the temple VISION of Ezekiel 40-48 was never meant to be built on the earth. Why?

Well, because all of the other physical temple/tabernacles that have been on the earth were built "by my spirit says the Lord" and so on.

Yep.

Specifically, only God initiates the construction of earthly "brick-and-mortar" temples/tabernacles--not the Jews (or anybody else).

And how does He do that?

Well, He does it through providing a "thus saith the Lord" Prophetic POWER Word to His people to "rise up and Build God's Temple" and so on.

Thus, there is no case of earthly, physical temple/tabernacle construction where there has not been spiritual, and prophetic, POWER supplied from God for the construction. And an example of what is required (according to YHWH's order and process pattern) for the construction of an appropriate "earthly physical brick and mortar temple/tabernacle of God" can be seen below (in bold):

Ezra 6
13 Then Tattenai, the governor of the province beyond the River, Shethar-bozenai and their colleagues carried out the decree with all diligence, just as King Darius had sent.
14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building according to the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
15 This temple was completed on the third day of the month Adar; it was the sixth year of the reign of King Darius.
16 And the sons of Israel, the priests, the Levites and the rest of the exiles, celebrated the dedication of this house of God with joy.
17 They offered for the dedication of this temple of God 100 bulls, 200 rams, 400 lambs, and as a sin offering for all Israel 12 male goats, corresponding to the number of the tribes of Israel.
18 Then they appointed the priests to their divisions and the Levites in their orders for the service of God in Jerusalem, as it is written in the book of Moses.

Now, the text in bold is critical, because you are at least admitting that God has to provide a "command" to build another "earthly physical brick-and-mortar temple"--or there will be no way to have a "throne of David" in the earth. Remember, the "throne of David" goes in the new "temple" and so on, yes?

And the "earthly physical brick-and-mortar temple" that is "under preparation today" (as some would say) has not been sanctioned by God.

Nope.

And so, how can an Immortal being--our King/Priest Jesus Christ--live there?

Remember, He has an heavenly eternal tabernacle already; why would He go to another one in the earth--and specifically one which has not been sanctioned by His Father for His use?

And we should also remember that the High Priest/King Jesus "has taken" His seat already from His Father--at the right hand of the Power:

Mark 14
60The high priest stood up and came forward and questioned Jesus, saying, “Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?”
61But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?”
62And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN.”
63Tearing his clothes, the high priest said, “What further need do we have of witnesses?
64“You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

Yes?

[Buddy]

A comment to BB2's posts above:

You don't have them all listed BB2 [all of the references to the various temples defined in scripture]

And let's not skirt around the real issue underlying the question of the OP

The issue is whether the Lord intends to rule over a kingdom of mortals on the earth for 1000 years just after His coming judgment, and whether His national people of Israel will be at the center of this coming kingdom on the earth

The scriptures give a definite "yes" to both even though there are those who deny this truth

There is no need to argue over trivialities and diversions, and either the Preterist/Amil view is correct or that of the literalist is correct ..... there is no congruence between the two

What will be is ....... what will be .... and there is nothing you can do about it

[quiet dove]

I'm not quite following you here. The reason why is this.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The part I'm focusing on is this....but the righteous into life eternal. That would have to be the sheep. I don't see life eternal and mortality being the same. I mean, in the Matt 25 context there are only 2 groups in view. One group shall go away into everlasting punishment, the other group into life eternal. So I'm just not seing what you're getting at here. Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you all together.

From my perspective tho, I would see the goats as being the same ones Jesus said He never knew them, in Matthew 7 I believe.

I agree on the goats...one reason I am OSAS..Jesus doesn't say I don't know you anymore, He says I never knew you...but that's another matter..we probably don't want to got there in this thread....lol

With God and who God is, once God declares something, it's as good as done. There is nothing that God has purposed to do, declared He would do, or what would happen ... that is still future, that we cannot place our faith in as securely as we can those things He has declared and have come to pass.(which I know you agree with)

So

I disagree on the going into eternal life or punishment as having to be regarding immortally speaking. In other words, you and I are in Christ Jesus...we have gone from eternal punishment to eternal life. We now rest in the hope, security, assurance, and peace of our Savior and that He is able.

Those faithful entering the Millennial kingdom have eternal life as surely as we do in Christ Jesus today. These who survived the GT are said by Christ there in Matthew to have demonstrated the faith within them by risking all to fed and clothe those persecuted of His brethren, and in the context, it seems to me His brethren are the Jewish faithful, and thus they have been helped by the Gentile faithful within the nations that are coming against Jerusalem.

I mean, when a person in Christ dies now, they go to be with Christ, they had eternal life, they have eternal life, and that is assured without doubt... because of who Christ is and He is able. Same with those who die having rejected Him...they go to eternal punishment, because of who Christ is and He is able/worthy...to judge.

But neither have been 'resurrected' to either...yet. But with God, it is just as certain as if it had already happened because of who God is and His word cannot and will not fail..."it's a done deal" as the saying goes...

[divaD]

Those would be the laws in the bible, naturally.

The modern day "Church" (Christians, presumably) follow some and not others. But then, they aren't obligated to follow them. The law was given to the Jews.

I guess what I was trying to get at, would any of these ordinances and statutes involve sacrificing of animals, where it would be required to do that?

[Fenris]

I guess what I was trying to get at, would any of these ordinances and statutes involve sacrificing of animals, where it would be required to do that?

What does it say?

they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them

It doesn't exclude sacrifices or generalized Temple laws.

[Beckrl]

Let me take a wild guess. The fish are linked to the fishermen of men. The trees that bear fruit would be the believers that bear fruit. Just a wild guess there.

Do you prefer to read those literally? Since God is to dwell with them forever why did God claim to dwell with men forever? (Rev.21:3) Would you at least agree that Ezekiel foreseen this New Jerusalem and that it what he was discribing to those exiles.

Once we come to that understanding then I think one can then get to the bottom of Ezekiel 40-48

[quiet dove]

The point is that Jonah was a prophet and he was prophesying in Jonah 3:4. I'm not sure how you can disagree with that.

If there was no condition then why wasn't Nineveh destroyed as Jonah said it would be?

It does not matter if Jonah's prophesies were conditional as far as Ezekiels prophesies go. If because Jonah's prophesies were conditional makes Ezekiels prophesies conditional then we would have to apply that rule to all prophecy.

I would agree that Israel living in the land and enjoying the blessings were/are conditional, however, what prophecy/promise were the curses built upon? And that the blessings were then built upon that same promise. The promises were made to Abraham, and David...the promise unconditional....the enjoying of the promise for the nation conditional. But the promises themselves were made unconditional to Abraham and David and thus something that God will indeed see accomplished, including the obedience of the nation.

If Israel's obedience is required for God to accomplish His declared promises to Abraham and David, then we would also have to include the coming of the promised Messiah. Not only His first advent, but His second. And we know that the first advent did happen, and at the appointed time, regardless of Israel's obedience or lack of. The promises of the Promised one were made to Abraham and David unconditionally, and that same promised One being Heir to Davids throne, and to rule of the nation, restoring the kingdom of Israel.

Had Israel not rejected her Messiah, that kingdom would have been restored the first time, but as prophecy foretold, that is not how it went...

Plus, as history bears record, Israel is living in the land, and they were regathered there in disobedience...there being a nation required in order for the remainder of prophecy to be fulfilled...so their obedience is not required for God to see through those things that He has declared will be. He will bring the nation to obedience, or a remnant of, that will enjoy the promised blessings just as assuredly as He provided the Means for all of it to come to pass.

[divaD]

Do you prefer to read those literally? Since God is to dwell with them forever why did God claim to dwell with men forever? (Rev.21:3) Would you at least agree that Ezekiel foreseen this New Jerusalem and that it what he was discribing to those exiles.

Personally I would see the visions in Ez 40-48 being the vivid details of this literal new Jerusalem. IOW I would see it as a literal city, with boundries, zoning, etc. But what I can't wrap my mind around is, what would animal sacrificing be doing in it? Even tho I'm presently premil, I disagree with a lot of other premils because I would see the new heavens and a new earth occuring when Christ returns. Granted, it seems to contradict the fact that everyone should already be in the LOF at this point. But if the new heavens and a new earth doesn't occur when Christ returns, that then contradicts 2 Peter 3, not to mention, what does one then do with Isaiah 65. Isaiah 65:17-25..the entire context is about the new heavins and a new earth. Afterall, there is the highly disputed verse 20 in that context.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

[billy-brown 2]

A comment to BB2's posts above:

You don't have them all listed BB2 [all of the references to the various temples defined in scripture]

And let's not skirt around the real issue underlying the question of the OP

The issue is whether the Lord intends to rule over a kingdom of mortals on the earth for 1000 years just after His coming judgment, and whether His national people of Israel will be at the center of this coming kingdom on the earth

The scriptures give a definite "yes" to both even though there are those who deny this truth

There is no need to argue over trivialities and diversions, and either the Preterist/Amil view is correct or that of the literalist is correct ..... there is no congruence between the two

What will be is ....... what will be .... and there is nothing you can do about it

LOL

Buddy,

Let's not make this about ourselves; I can do nothing about any of this--but neither can you either.

And besides, we are only fellowshipping about the issues in the OP. Also, all "end-time" views have "literal" elements in them.

So, which of the items listed in the OP do you favor (in bold below)?

It seems it's time for another thread about these chapters. I'm probably not familiar with every view, in regards to these chapters, but some views I am familiar are, such as...1..these chapters are conditional..the house of Israel didn't live up to the conditions, thus this prophecy will never be fulfilled. 2..if this prophecy is never fulfilled, then Ezekiel was a false prophet. 3...this prophecy is being or will be fulfilled, just not literally, because it speaks of a spiritual temple, not a physical temple. 4...this prophecy will be fulfilled literally, but in the future. 5...this temple has aleady been built..it was the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. 6....#5 can't be true because none of the dimensions between the two match up.

Speaking for myself, I used to believe #1 was the correct conclusion. I now find that illogical based on a cpl of things.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If you look at this verse, there are no conditions. There is not an if anywhere in that verse. Let's look at this part...and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile.

With that in mind, let's look at another passage.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Read this verse in context. There are no conditions surrounding the fact that neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions. Ezekiel 37:23 states that God Himself will cleanse them. So why would the sense be any different in Ezekiel 43:7?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Notice that it is God that will not let them, meaning His people Israel, pollute His holy name any more.

So this would be why I no longer support #1. So which view do I now support? You got me? I'm still not certain what to make of these 8 chapters. Does anyone?

[quiet dove]

Personally I would see the visions in Ez 40-48 being the vivid details of this literal new Jerusalem. IOW I would see it as a literal city, with boundries, zoning, etc. But what I can't wrap my mind around is, what would animal sacrificing be doing in it? Even tho I'm presently premil, I disagree with a lot of other premils because I would see the new heavens and a new earth occuring when Christ returns. Granted, it seems to contradict the fact that everyone should already be in the LOF at this point. But if the new heavens and a new earth doesn't occur when Christ returns, that then contradicts 2 Peter 3, not to mention, what does one then do with Isaiah 65. Isaiah 65:17-25..the entire context is about the new heavins and a new earth. Afterall, there is the highly disputed verse 20 in that context.

Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

It seems with 2 Peter, speaks of preparation for the Millennial reign, sorta as the flood cleansed the unrighteous/unrighteousness from the earth, this fire will be the same and a cleansing...preparing the earth for the Millennial reign of Christ.

The context is talking about what will happen to the unrighteous/unrighteousness, and the works of them...those things will be gone. And that could apply to either a cleansing in preparation for the Millennial kingdom, or, the final judgment upon the final rebellion spoken of in Revelation 20:8-9.

It seems to me that we have some of the same thing in the NT as in the OT...the prophesies of these events are not giving a complete list of events all the time and the writers can go from one to the other without giving notice to the readers. That is the only way to reconcile with the passages you reference in Isaiah....either Peter speaks of a Millennial preparation cleansing, or, he speaks of after Rev 20:8-9 and the bringing in of the new heaven and earth...my guess, or rather I leans towards the latter of those two options....

[rejoice44]

No one has yet shown that the second temple was not built to Ezekiel's specifications.