Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

[rejoice44]

Perhaps you could, beyond the dimensions of the second temple, help us connect to your point by comparing other aspects of the Temple in Ezekiel 40-48 with the Second Temple? The river and the glory, the prince, the sons of Zadok, the lack of sweat on the garments, etc. would be a great place to start.

It seemed like this thread gets started on rabbit trails that sometimes go in circles. There is a lot in the scripture that I cannot answer, and do not try to. As things are revealed I accept them. The premise on this thread is that the second temple was not built to Ezekiel's blueprint. Is that a true premise, or a false one. Until that can be proven one way or the other, there seems no solid basis to work with.

[Beckrl]

Im not sure what you mean here...

What I mean is that prophesy was given to the exiles at Babylon. They were in their 25th year of 70 years of captivity. Their hope was to return and build again their city and temple. If this prophesy it fulfilled by them coming back and rebuilding the city and walls then it would have been fulfilled in the days of Herod. I'm guessing you don't see it's fulfillment by Herod and I don't either.

AT the risk of starting yet another fight on the topic, I don't think that Ezekiel 37 has been "fulfilled".

I only speak of Ezekiel becasue it relates to them being gathered back. Ezekiel in 37 had speak of them being gathered back from the nations, they would not any more be two nations but joined together as one. (v.22) I see this as all nations under heaven coming in Acts 2 the day of penetcost where God joined them into his kingdom--- the making of one new man (Eph.2:15-22) The building of the holy temple of God.

[divaD]

It is an indication that they were following Ezekiel's blue print. No it is not proof that they followed it completely, but it points in that direction.


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I don't see that being logical tho. Here God is giving an exact blueprint so to speak, but when they build it, they're not exactly following God's plans to a T. I wonder what would have happened if Noah had done the same thing? There you see God telling Noah how to design the ark, tho I'm sure the more intricate details were left out of the account, then Noah deciding to build the ark how he would rather do it it, and not how God instructed him to do it. What's the point of God even getting involved then, if no one is going to follow His instructions to a T? And what about something like the following?


Exodus 29:38 Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
40 And with the one lamb a tenth deal of flour mingled with the fourth part of an hin of beaten oil; and the fourth part of an hin of wine for a drink offering.

This is only an example. But do you think they followed that to the T, or do you think perhaps they decided to make it a THIRD part of an hin of beaten oil instead? I'm guessing you wouldn't. So why do you then think no one would be following God's design in Ez 40-48 to a T, if this were meaning the 2nd temple?

[Fenris]

What I mean is that prophesy was given to the exiles at Babylon. They were in their 25th year of 70 years of captivity. Their hope was to return and build again their city and temple. If this prophesy it fulfilled by them coming back and rebuilding the city and walls then it would have been fulfilled in the days of Herod. I'm guessing you don't see it's fulfillment by Herod and I don't either.

Lots of what Ezekiel saw hasn't happened yet.

I only speak of Ezekiel becasue it relates to them being gathered back. Ezekiel in 37 had speak of them being gathered back from the nations, they would not any more be two nations but joined together as one. (v.22) I see this as all nations under heaven coming in Acts 2 the day of penetcost where God joined them into his kingdom--- the making of one new man (Eph.2:15-22) The building of the holy temple of God.

But you're neglecting other verses in the same chapter.

This is the part you like-

15 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying: 16 'And thou, son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it: For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions; then take another stick, and write upon it: For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and of all the house of Israel his companions; 17 and join them for thee one to another into one stick, that they may become one in thy hand. 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying: Wilt thou not tell us what thou meanest by these? 19 say into them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thy hand before their eyes.

which is fine. But what about the rest of the chapter?

21 And say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; 23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God. 24 And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them--it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. 27 My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.


This plainly describes events that are yet to come.

[rejoice44]

They followed it where possible. Since they could not expand the temple mount to the size described by Ezekiel, they didn't.

What is the dimension you are referring to?

Sure. many of them have the same last name, "Cohen".

Cohen equals to a son of Zadok?

Not a square

Someones imagination. I suppose those people around the temple were Cohens

We have archeological digs at the site.

They are not even sure were the temple was, some say outside the present wall.

We don't know "for a fact" what the size of the objects in the temple were. You just cite the Talmud- in this instance- because it agrees with you.

So Rabbi Jose just made it up. OK.

[the rookie]

It seemed like this thread gets started on rabbit trails that sometimes go in circles. There is a lot in the scripture that I cannot answer, and do not try to. As things are revealed I accept them. The premise on this thread is that the second temple was not built to Ezekiel's blueprint. Is that a true premise, or a false one. Until that can be proven one way or the other, there seems no solid basis to work with.

And I'm giving you a shot to prove "the other" related to the details we have from the passage. A "rabbit trail" proving that the temple revealed in Ezekiel was, in fact, the Second Temple would be an innovative idea foreign to just about every Hebrew and Christian scholar I know, therefore, if you are saying you have evidence that they are one and the same you would be serving us with a breakthrough in modern scholarship on the subject.

[Fenris]

What is the dimension you are referring to?

500 reeds.

Cohen equals to a son of Zadok?

Yup.

Someones imagination.

Based on the archeological digs. Or maybe those are imaginary too.

I suppose those people around the temple were Cohens

Could be. Or worshippers.

They are not even sure were the temple was, some say outside the present wall.

Um no, that would be off the temple mount.

So Rabbi Jose just made it up.

Rabbi Yose is only worth quoting when he agrees with you I guess.

[Beckrl]

I would see all this pertaining to the now. The new heavens and a new earth are future. The above would be understood spiritually. The new Jerusalem in Rev 21-22 would be understood literally and be seen physically. IOW, actual dimensions, having an actual location on the earth. After all, it's seen as having gates, which then infers there's an inside, and there's an outside. You can get a closer look of it in the OT, like here for instance...Isaiah 60:11 and the surrounding context.

If the city as prescribed by 1 Peter 2 which the saints were said to be living stones why do you interpert the new heavens and earth as future? Sure it was future to those saints which was placing their hopes, but as God promised it was fulfilled by the passing away of the law.(Matt.5:18) Peter said that it would melt with heat and dissolve away, that it's elements would dissolve. Paul said it this way that the elements of the laws of bondage that they where under would be removed so that they might recevice the adoption of sons.(Gal.4:3-9)

The elements of the world is what Paul descibed as being the elements of the law to which they where under. This is what they where to be set free from to no more be under condemnation. Paul asked them "how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" (Gal.4:9)

So understanding this 'elements" of this world 'age' is that age of the law of condemnation. So to have a new heaven (temple) and new earth (Israel). This aren't liteally physaiclly earthly, but one spiritual.

[Beckrl]

Lots of what Ezekiel saw hasn't happened yet.

I'll have to do a search, but right off hand I'm not remebering any.

But you're neglecting other verses in the same chapter.

This is the part you like-

15 And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying: 16 'And thou, son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it: For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions; then take another stick, and write upon it: For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and of all the house of Israel his companions; 17 and join them for thee one to another into one stick, that they may become one in thy hand. 18 And when the children of thy people shall speak unto thee, saying: Wilt thou not tell us what thou meanest by these? 19 say into them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thy hand before their eyes.

which is fine.

Yes I like those

But what about the rest of the chapter?

21 And say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; 23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God. 24 And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them--it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. 27 My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.


This plainly describes events that are yet to come.

I don't see a problem. Only if you attemp to read it literally then you have to assume it's in a far future time. Which I don't.

[the rookie]

I don't see a problem. Only if you attemp to read it literally then you have to assume it's in a far future time. Which I don't.

The problem that I see is that if you don't attempt to read it as it is written, then you can insert whatever meaning suits your inclination.

[Fenris]

I don't see a problem. Only if you attemp to read it literally then you have to assume it's in a far future time. Which I don't.

Words have to mean something. You can't just ascribe everything in a verse to metaphor.

let's look at one verse.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever;

So according to you, "dwell" doesn't mean "live in", the "land" isn't actual land, Jacob isn't actually Jacob, their fathers aren't biological ancestors, their children aren't biological children, and "forever" doesn't mean forever.

If you can do that to a verse, as the rookie points out, you can make it mean anything you like.

[divaD]

If the city as prescribed by 1 Peter 2 which the saints were said to be living stones why do you interpert the new heavens and earth as future? Sure it was future to those saints which was placing their hopes, but as God promised it was fulfilled by the passing away of the law.(Matt.5:18) Peter said that it would melt with heat and dissolve away, that it's elements would dissolve. Paul said it this way that the elements of the laws of bondage that they where under would be removed so that they might recevice the adoption of sons.(Gal.4:3-9)

The elements of the world is what Paul descibed as being the elements of the law to which they where under. This is what they where to be set free from to no more be under condemnation. Paul asked them "how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?" (Gal.4:9)

So understanding this 'elements" of this world 'age' is that age of the law of condemnation. So to have a new heaven (temple) and new earth (Israel). This aren't liteally physaiclly earthly, but one spiritual.

Here's what 2 Peter 3 says.

2 Peter 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The day of God has to be in ref to the return of Christ. We're told this in 2 Peter 3:10.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


What other Scriptures are linked to a thief in the night? The following for one.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


Clearly this has not happened yet. It is no coincidence that the day of the Lord, and as a thief in the night are both in the contexts of those passages. How much clearer does it need to get, that the new heavens and a new earth are linked to the day of the Lord, with the day of the Lord being linked to the 2nd coming? Why would you want to throw all that evidence out, then interpret 2 Peter 3 according to how you're understanding 1 Peter 2?

[divaD]

Words have to mean something. You can't just ascribe everything in a verse to metaphor.

let's look at one verse.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever;

So according to you, "dwell" doesn't mean "live in", the "land" isn't actual land, Jacob isn't actually Jacob, their fathers aren't biological ancestors, their children aren't biological children, and "forever" doesn't mean forever.

If you can do that to a verse, as the rookie points out, you can make it mean anything you like.

I hear you myself. I feel exactly the same way about it. You made the point perfectly. Yet unfortunately, I'm guessing some still won't see it that way.

[Beckrl]

The problem that I see is that if you don't attempt to read it as it is written, then you can insert whatever meaning suits your inclination.

The problem is that we today in the 21 century don't understand how the Hebrew text was written. Therefore one can read it in many different ways. Although when reading the NT text it appears more symbolic and spiritualized wouldn't you say?

[Beckrl]

Words have to mean something. You can't just ascribe everything in a verse to metaphor.

let's look at one verse.

25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever;

So according to you, "dwell" doesn't mean "live in", the "land" isn't actual land, Jacob isn't actually Jacob, their fathers aren't biological ancestors, their children aren't biological children, and "forever" doesn't mean forever.

If you can do that to a verse, as the rookie points out, you can make it mean anything you like.

Sure they mean something just not what is to be taken literally. It goes back to your understanding of how is God to dwell the tabernacle forever? Is God to make one by husands hands and earthly temple or is God going to make the true tabernacle not maded by husand hands?

So which one is promised to the children of Israel that God might dwell with them?