Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

[John146]

Yep. You got it . . .

Ezekiel's sharing of the VISION of Eze. 40-48 with the exiles required the "ashamed" posture of the exiles--and there is no record in Ezekiel's writings that they were "ashamed" at all.

Yep. And it seems to me that the exiles themselves were the ones required to be ashamed of what they had done. I don't see how Jews today could be ashamed of what those exiles had done long ago, right? What if those exiles weren't ashamed? Was God still obligated to build the temple for them? No. Is He obligated to build the temple in the future? I don't see how. The temple was to be built for those exiles if they were ashamed of what they had done. Since it wasn't ever built that tells me they proved not to be ashamed of what they had done or else God would have had the temple built for them. I don't see at all how the prophecy could be applied to modern day Israel. It was a prophecy specifically related to the house of Israel that existed back then. If it was going to be built it was meant to be built for them. It's obviously too late for that now.

[ross3421]

It seems it's time for another thread about these chapters. I'm probably not familiar with every view, in regards to these chapters, but some views I am familiar are, such as...1..these chapters are conditional..the house of Israel didn't live up to the conditions, thus this prophecy will never be fulfilled. 2..if this prophecy is never fulfilled, then Ezekiel was a false prophet. 3...this prophecy is being or will be fulfilled, just not literally, because it speaks of a spiritual temple, not a physical temple. 4...this prophecy will be fulfilled literally, but in the future. 5...this temple has aleady been built..it was the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. 6....#5 can't be true because none of the dimensions between the two match up.

Speaking for myself, I used to believe #1 was the correct conclusion. I now find that illogical based on a cpl of things.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If you look at this verse, there are no conditions. There is not an if anywhere in that verse. Let's look at this part...and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile.

With that in mind, let's look at another passage.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Read this verse in context. There are no conditions surrounding the fact that neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions. Ezekiel 37:23 states that God Himself will cleanse them. So why would the sense be any different in Ezekiel 43:7?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Notice that it is God that will not let them, meaning His people Israel, pollute His holy name any more.

So this would be why I no longer support #1. So which view do I now support? You got me? I'm still not certain what to make of these 8 chapters. Does anyone?

Ez 40-48 culminates in the promise to Israel in the next world. Some will say impossible due to the fact there are once again sacrifices but their's is a lack of understanding. Israel will inherit the land and fulfill the promise. They will procreate and populate the land starting with the 144,000. These children born in the next world will need salvation and come to the river of life. The sacrifices will be a remembrance that they are not worthy.

Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
e not worthy and a sign to point them in the right direction.

"and multiply them....." The key is to understand their is procreation of Israel in the next world.

[Fenris]

Not His unconditional promises. But whether or not His conditional promises came true depended on whether the conditions were met or not.

For example.....?

[Fenris]

I'm not saying all of the prophecies in the entire book are conditional, I'm just saying I believe Ezekiel 40-48 in particular was conditional. What you're saying here does not prove that Ezekiel 40-48 can't be conditional.

Perhaps those conditions haven't been met...yet?

[ross3421]

I'm just wondering if anyone has any examples of prophecies that never came to pass because they were conditional, meaning the conditions weren't meant? Aren't prophecies like promises from God? It seems more logical that prophecies wouldn't come to pass if certain conditions are met first, such as God promising to destroy people unless they meet His conditions first. And if they do meet His conditions first, the prophecy doesn't need to come to pass. But in Ez 40-48 it's the opposite concept, according to some views...the house of Israel didn't meet the conditions, now the prophecy is void.

But scriptures state otherwise that a remnant DOES meet the conditions!!!! EZ 40-48 then is the description of this prophecy FULFILLED

Eze 48:29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 48:30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.
Eze 48:31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
Eze 48:32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
Eze 48:33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
Eze 48:34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.
Eze 48:35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.

[John146]

If he didn't, it wouldn't be in the bible.

How do you figure? Just because it's recorded in the Bible doesn't mean they saw what we can see now. Do you have any evidence to show that he showed them what we can now read in Ezekiel 40-48?

[divaD]

Yes. Here is one:

Jonah 3:1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 3So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. 4And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Okay, so the original prophecy God gave to Jonah was that Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days. Is that what happened? No. Why not? Because it was a conditional prophecy. What were the conditions?

Jonah 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

The condition was that if the people of Nineveh repented of their evil ways then God would not destroy them, otherwise He would. So, just because a prophecy is not fulfilled due to the conditions of the prophecy not being met doesn't mean it isn't a prophecy. It's just a conditional prophecy in that case.

Can't He make conditional promises? Such as the promise that if someone believes in His Son they will have eternal life and if they don't they won't?

The example I gave above is an example of that. Is that not a conditional prophecy? If so doesn't that answer your question as to whether there are conditinal prophecies or not? Why can't the Ezekiel 40-48 prophecy be conditional, knowing that prophecies can be conditional?

So? If there are such things as conditional prophecies, and I think there clearly are, then why can't it be conditional in a different way than, say, the prophecy regarding the destruction of Nineveh?

This would be a good example, and like I already pointed out in a prev post, I would find this concept logical. But do you know of any conditional prophecies where anyone didn't meet the conditions, thus the prophecy doesn't get fulfilled? Not saying there isn't any.

In your example, it looks like they met the conditions. In the Ez 40-48 example, the idea is that they didn't meet the conditions, so this voided the prophecy. So I'm mainly looking for prophecies that would be similar to the Ez 40-48 prophecy. Also in your example we see where they met the conditions. In the Ez 40-48 prophecy we don't see whether the conditions are met or not. So most assume they weren't met. But why? Wouldn't it be because animal sacrificing in the future seems illogical, based on what Christ did?

But let's look at this another way. For the sake of argument, the prophecy in Ez 40-48 was conditional. Also for the sake of argument, the house of Israel meets those conditions. Now what? Wasn't Christ already prophesied about even before the Ezekiel visions? But if Ez 40-48 now has to come to pass because the house of Israel met the conditions, then how is the prophecies of Christ now supposed to come to pass? According to the Ezekiel prophecies, this appears to be a forever thing. Unless I missed it, I don't see any indication in the text that any of the ordinances of the house, etc, would ever be done away with, since God indicated He would stay with them forever at that point. So how was all that to work out to begin with, keeping in mind that Christ was also prophesied? Would that make the prophecies about Christ conditional then, based on whether the conditions of the prophecy in the Ez 40-48 were met first?

[John146]

Perhaps those conditions haven't been met...yet?

In my opinion the conditions can't ever be met because they needed to be met by the exiles who lived at that time. They had to be ashamed of what they had done. I don't see where it says someone else could be ashamed for them.

[John146]

For example.....?

I assume you are asking for an example of a conditional promise that God made? If so, here's a few:

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deut 4:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

Deut 8:19And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

Isa 48:18O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: 19Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.

[divaD]

Ez 40-48 culminates in the promise to Israel in the next world. Some will say impossible due to the fact there are once again sacrifices but their's is a lack of understanding. Israel will inherit the land and fulfill the promise. They will procreate and populate the land starting with the 144,000. These children born in the next world will need salvation and come to the river of life. The sacrifices will be a remembrance that they are not worthy.

Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
e not worthy and a sign to point them in the right direction.

"and multiply them....." The key is to understand their is procreation of Israel in the next world.

It's still hard to believe you're not premil. I thought only premils believe the visions in Ez 40-48 to be future? The Jews too of course. I would guess most of them see this as a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. But I would have thought no non premil would tho. I guess I learn something new everyday.

[John146]

This would be a good example, and like I already pointed out in a prev post, I would find this concept logical. But do you know of any conditional prophecies where anyone didn't meet the conditions, thus the prophecy doesn't get fulfilled? Not saying there isn't any.

The example I gave from Jonah 3 is an example of that. The condition for Nineveh being destroyed was that the people would be destroyed if they did not repent within the 40 day timefram that Jonah mentioned. But they did repent (therefore not meeting the condition that would have resulted in their destruction) so they weren't destroyed.

In your example, it looks like they met the conditions.

Not the conditions for being destroyed. They met the condition for avoiding destruction. Anyway, it's clear that a prophecy can be conditional so I don't see why it could only be conditional in one sense.

In the Ez 40-48 example, the idea is that they didn't meet the conditions, so this voided the prophecy. So I'm mainly looking for prophecies that would be similar to the Ez 40-48 prophecy.

Why do you need that in order to be convinced that it could be a conditional prophecy? I don't get that. I think I've done enough to show that there is such thing as a conditional prophecy so I don't know why that isn't enough for you.

Also in your example we see where they met the conditions. In the Ez 40-48 prophecy we don't see whether the conditions are met or not. So most assume they weren't met. But why? Wouldn't it be because animal sacrificing in the future seems illogical, based on what Christ did?

It's easy to assume that the conditions weren't met because the conditions were for the exiles who lived at that time and the temple was never built for them. They are the ones who had to meet the conditions. And since the temple was never built for them that means they did not meet the conditions, or else it would have been built for them. The prophecy was directed towards the ones living at that time, not anyone living today or in the future.

But let's look at this another way. For the sake of argument, the prophecy in Ez 40-48 was conditional. Also for the sake of argument, the house of Israel meets those conditions. Now what?

It's too late for them to meet the conditions. They are all dead now. I don't believe the prophecy was for the house of Israel in general so that it could be fulfilled at any time in history as long as a house of Israel exists. The prophecy was for those who lived at that time. They had to be ashamed of what they had done. How can anyone today be ashamed for what people did a long time ago? I believe God wanted those exiles to repent at that time in order to build the temple for them. And since the temple wasn't built that tells me they did not repent.

[billy-brown 2]

If he didn't, it wouldn't be in the bible.

LOL

Well, it is in the Bible for our benefit today.

However, I am asking about Ezekiel HIMSELF and the exiles of the 70-year "time-out" configuration and so on. Notice the requirement:

Eze. 43
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may . . .

1) observe its whole design and all its statutes and

2) do them.

Where are the scriptures that indicate "shame" (and so on) for sin by the exiles?

[divaD]

Why do you need that in order to be convinced that it could be a conditional prophecy? I don't get that. I think I've done enough to show that there is such thing as a conditional prophecy so I don't know why that isn't enough for you.

I don't know. Maybe I'm just too picky about things sometimes. But I see your point tho..that prophecies can be conditional, which I never doubted to begin with. It's just that I was looking for a conditional prophecy where the conditions are never met, thus voiding the prophecy. For some reason, that seems to be a different concept than prophecies being voided when conditions are met first.

It's too late for them to meet the conditions. They are all dead now. I don't believe the prophecy was for the house of Israel in general so that it could be fulfilled at any time in history as long as a house of Israel exists. The prophecy was for those who lived at that time. They had to be ashamed of what they had done. How can anyone today be ashamed for what people did a long time ago? I believe God wanted those exiles to repent at that time in order to build the temple for them. And since the temple wasn't built that tells me they did not repent.

But this would still be missing the point I was trying to make. If the exiles had met the conditions, and if Christ still would have come and paid the price, then how were the exiles ever to be united in Christ, since they would be doing animal sacrificing for their sins, and forever at that I guess?

[Beckrl]

Yep. And it seems to me that the exiles themselves were the ones required to be ashamed of what they had done. I don't see how Jews today could be ashamed of what those exiles had done long ago, right? What if those exiles weren't ashamed? Was God still obligated to build the temple for them? No. Is He obligated to build the temple in the future? I don't see how. The temple was to be built for those exiles if they were ashamed of what they had done. Since it wasn't ever built that tells me they proved not to be ashamed of what they had done or else God would have had the temple built for them. I don't see at all how the prophecy could be applied to modern day Israel. It was a prophecy specifically related to the house of Israel that existed back then. If it was going to be built it was meant to be built for them. It's obviously too late for that now.

Just wanted to say this is EXCELLENT.

[divaD]

Just wanted to say this is EXCELLENT.

Perhaps you can address the point I was trying to make then? If the exiles met the conditions, meaning the prophecy would have to be met, then how could any of them ever be united in Christ at that point, since the idea is to do away with animal sacrificing for sins, not to continue it forever? Once the prophecy is fulfilled, I see no indication that the ordinances and laws, etc, of the house would ever be stopped someday. This is why this can't work with a thousand years in the future, followed by the new heavens and a new earth, since that would imply this temple gets destroyed or something. I don't see anywhere in those 8 chapters in Ezekiel that the temple would ever be destroyed once the prophecy is fulfilled.