Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

[shepherdsword]

Yep. And it seems to me that the exiles themselves were the ones required to be ashamed of what they had done. I don't see how Jews today could be ashamed of what those exiles had done long ago, right? What if those exiles weren't ashamed? Was God still obligated to build the temple for them? No. Is He obligated to build the temple in the future? I don't see how. The temple was to be built for those exiles if they were ashamed of what they had done. Since it wasn't ever built that tells me they proved not to be ashamed of what they had done or else God would have had the temple built for them. I don't see at all how the prophecy could be applied to modern day Israel. It was a prophecy specifically related to the house of Israel that existed back then. If it was going to be built it was meant to be built for them. It's obviously too late for that now.

There is no condition for the temple to be built. Let's look at the verse:

Eze_43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

The condition deals with the revelation of the temple and it's ordinances not the actual building of it. Since as Fenis and Divad have pointed out,we have the written revealtion the condition for that must have been fulfilled in Ezra,who brought back Ezekiel's book from exile:

Ezr_9:6 And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over our head, and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens.

The solution to the issue has to be other than a conditional promise. I'm not saying I know the solution,just that I haven't seen anyone figure this out yet. This issue is the reason I struggle with the premil/post trib position. Everything else fits together but this...a rebuilt temple re instituting the Levitical sacrifices.

[ross3421]

It's still hard to believe you're not premil. I thought only premils believe the visions in Ez 40-48 to be future? The Jews too of course. I would guess most of them see this as a prophecy yet to be fulfilled. But I would have thought no non premil would tho. I guess I learn something new everyday.

I see this as the eternal world not 1000 years.

[divaD]

Ez 40-48 culminates in the promise to Israel in the next world. Some will say impossible due to the fact there are once again sacrifices but their's is a lack of understanding. Israel will inherit the land and fulfill the promise. They will procreate and populate the land starting with the 144,000. These children born in the next world will need salvation and come to the river of life. The sacrifices will be a remembrance that they are not worthy.

Eze 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
Eze 37:24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
Eze 37:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
e not worthy and a sign to point them in the right direction.

"and multiply them....." The key is to understand their is procreation of Israel in the next world.

I may have missed your point the first time around. It seems that these two passages you provided are linked to one another. I can't imagine Ez 37 having already been fulfilled. And if they're linked, I would think that should tell us something about Ez 40-48 as well.

[divaD]

I see this as the eternal world not 1000 years.

By eternal world, do you mean things will be like that forever, such as folks living, dying, procreating? If so, then maybe I found someone on the same page with me after all, since I can see this being logical, since I have been pondering along these same lines for quite some time now. I haven't made my mind up as of yet tho.

[billy-brown 2]

There is no condition for the temple to be built. Let's look at the verse:

Eze_43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

The condition deals with the revelation of the temple and it's ordinances not the actual building of it. Since as Fenis and Divad have pointed out,we have the written revelation the condition for that must have been fulfilled in Ezra,who brought back Ezekiel's book from exile:

Ezr_9:6 And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over our head, and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens.

The solution to the issue has to be other than a conditional promise. I'm not saying I know the solution,just that I haven't seen anyone figure this out yet. This issue is the reason I struggle with the premil/post trib position. Everything else fits together but this...a rebuilt temple re instituting the Levitical sacrifices.

I can't imagine that Ezekiel's Temple will be built at all, because there is no command from God to His people to build it at all.

And also, Daniel was in the same captivity; notice the "shame" in his prayer also:

Dan. 9
1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans—

2in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

3So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.

4I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed and said, “Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and lovingkindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments,

5we have sinned, committed iniquity, acted wickedly and rebelled, even turning aside from Your commandments and ordinances.

6“Moreover, we have not listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our princes, our fathers and all the people of the land.

7“Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord, but to us open shame, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those who are nearby and those who are far away in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of their unfaithful deeds which they have committed against You.

8“Open shame belongs to us, O Lord, to our kings, our princes and our fathers, because we have sinned against You.

And Gabriel gives a response to this at the end of the prayer passage, yes? (Do we dare "go there" . . .?)

Dan. 9
25“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.

26“Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Interesting . . .

[ross3421]

By eternal world, do you mean things will be like that forever, such as folks living, dying, procreating? If so, then maybe I found someone on the same page with me after all, since I can see this being logical, since I have been pondering along these same lines for quite some time now. I haven't made my mind up as of yet tho.

Yes as in forever. The difference in eternity is God will be supreme king over the earth and rule with a rod of Iron....not Obama. In addition, overlooked is that Israel will live outside the city in the land the church inside the city walls. Inheredience was same for both groups however rewards were different.

Eze 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Eze 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

Living and procreating for sure....I am still pondering the dying part. Not sure if those which are disobedient in eternity and cursed; die, thrown into the fire directly, or continue to live with a curse. I know the Rev says no more death but that is speaking directly to the bride the church not to Israel.


Zec 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Zec 14:20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
Zec 14:21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Re 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
Re 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Re 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[Beckrl]

Perhaps you can address the point I was trying to make then? If the exiles met the conditions, meaning the prophecy would have to be met, then how could any of them ever be united in Christ at that point, since the idea is to do away with animal sacrificing for sins, not to continue it forever? Once the prophecy is fulfilled, I see no indication that the ordinances and laws, etc, of the house would ever be stopped someday. This is why this can't work with a thousand years in the future, followed by the new heavens and a new earth, since that would imply this temple gets destroyed or something. I don't see anywhere in those 8 chapters in Ezekiel that the temple would ever be destroyed once the prophecy is fulfilled.

This undestanding is taking from Isaiah 11 to whom Isaiah was addressing that would be gathered back from the dispersed of Judah. In a sence Isaiah said it would be like an highway for the remnant to return like that of the day of the Exodus from Egypt. This of course parallels [Is the gathering together the fulfilling of Isaiah and Ezekiel] with what happened at Pentecost of Acts 2.

To me Ezekiel and John's visions parallel. We can find a good number of ideologies paralleling from the book by Ezekiel and find that same idea written by John. This description of the city and Temple is no different in that both are given a rod to measure the city / temple. Now given the fact that both books of Ezekiel and Revelation is full of metaphor's I would gather that the city and temple is a metaphor for the first born sons of God the Church. Oh I mean the 'people of God' the 'Church' is another metaphor used to denote the building of God.

Now then did God keep this prophesy to those that were ashamed and asked for forgiveness? Of course John said they were Priest and Kings of that City.

[divaD]

To me Ezekiel and John's visions parallel. We can find a good number of ideologies paralleling from the book by Ezekiel and find that same idea written by John. This description of the city and Temple is no different in that both are given a rod to measure the city / temple. Now given the fact that both books of Ezekiel and Revelation is full of metaphor's I would gather that the city and temple is a metaphor for the first born sons of God the Church. Oh I mean the 'people of God' the 'Church' is another metaphor used to denote the building of God.

Clearly the new Jerusalem is a location. For example.

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

The two 'its', this is the new Jerusalem. The nations of them which are saved, and the kings of the earth are not the two 'its' in that verse. The two 'its'.. shall walk in the light of it....do bring their glory and honour into it,,clearly these two 'its' is meaning the new Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.


Here's another 'it'...And there shall in no wise enter into it. Clearly this 'it' is different from 'they which are written in the Lamb's book of life'. Clearly the 'it' is the new Jerusalem. Clearly 'they which are written in the Lamb's book of life'...this is meaning the church. IOW only the church is allowed to enter into it. The church can't enter into itself since that would be illogical.

[jeffweeder]

The new Jerusalem is the redeemed that is located in the Lamb.
Abraham looked forward to being a part of it, even while he dwelt in the promised land.

[jeffweeder]

Heb 11
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.



All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

No temple built, but a city prepared that descends out of Heaven from God.

[ross3421]

Heb 11
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise;
10 for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.



All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14 For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own.
15 And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.

No temple built, but a city prepared that descends out of Heaven from God.

Why would there not be a temple?

Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Re 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Re 15:8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

So John speaks of a literal temple 12 times but the last time he says there is no temple in the city.........

Re 21:22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.
Re 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


So then did the temple which John spoke of disappear? Note the temple which he spoke of the first 12 times was NOT the Lamb but a building. So again did it disappear or will it be located not in the city but elsewhere in the land? Yes. Will the Levites be without a temple?.

Eze 41:1 Afterward he brought me to the temple, and measured the posts, six cubits broad on the one side, and six cubits broad on the other side, which was the breadth of the tabernacle.

Actually there will be a physical temple in eternity which will be located north of the city in the land wherin the tribe of Levi will reside.

Eze 48:13 And over against the border of the priests the Levites shall have five and twenty thousand in length, and ten thousand in breadth: all the length shall be five and twenty thousand, and the breadth ten thousand.
Eze 48:14 And they shall not sell of it, neither exchange, nor alienate the firstfruits of the land: for it is holy unto the LORD.
Eze 48:15 And the five thousand, that are left in the breadth over against the five and twenty thousand, shall be a profane place for the city, for dwelling, and for suburbs: and the city shall be in the midst thereof.
Eze 48:16 And these shall be the measures thereof; the north side four thousand and five hundred, and the south side four thousand and five hundred, and on the east side four thousand and five hundred, and the west side four thousand and five hundred.
Eze 48:17 And the suburbs of the city shall be toward the north two hundred and fifty, and toward the south two hundred and fifty, and toward the east two hundred and fifty, and toward the west two hundred and fifty.
Eze 48:18 And the residue in length over against the oblation of the holy portion shall be ten thousand eastward, and ten thousand westward: and it shall be over against the oblation of the holy portion; and the increase thereof shall be for food unto them that serve the city.
Eze 48:19 And they that serve the city shall serve it out of all the tribes of Israel.
Eze 48:20 All the oblation shall be five and twenty thousand by five and twenty thousand: ye shall offer the holy oblation foursquare, with the possession of the city.
Eze 48:21 And the residue shall be for the prince, on the one side and on the other of the holy oblation, and of the possession of the city, over against the five and twenty thousand of the oblation toward the east border, and westward over against the five and twenty thousand toward the west border, over against the portions for the prince: and it shall be the holy oblation; and the sanctuary of the house shall be in the midst thereof.
Eze 48:22 Moreover from the possession of the Levites, and from the possession of the city, being in the midst of that which is the prince's, between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin, shall be for the prince.
Eze 48:23 As for the rest of the tribes, from the east side unto the west side, Benjamin shall have a portion.
Eze 48:24 And by the border of Benjamin, from the east side unto the west side, Simeon shall have a portion.
Eze 48:25 And by the border of Simeon, from the east side unto the west side, Issachar a portion.
Eze 48:26 And by the border of Issachar, from the east side unto the west side, Zebulun a portion.
Eze 48:27 And by the border of Zebulun, from the east side unto the west side, Gad a portion.
Eze 48:28 And by the border of Gad, at the south side southward, the border shall be even from Tamar unto the waters of strife in Kadesh, and to the river toward the great sea.
Eze 48:29 This is the land which ye shall divide by lot unto the tribes of Israel for inheritance, and these are their portions, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 48:30 And these are the goings out of the city on the north side, four thousand and five hundred measures.
Eze 48:31 And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
Eze 48:32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
Eze 48:33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
Eze 48:34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali.
Eze 48:35 It was round about eighteen thousand measures: and the name of the city from that day shall be, The LORD is there.

[Fenris]

How do you figure? Just because it's recorded in the Bible doesn't mean they saw what we can see now. Do you have any evidence to show that he showed them what we can now read in Ezekiel 40-48?

How could he "show" them? He could only tell them what he saw. And he did, that's how Ezekiel, including 40-48, made it into the bible.

[Fenris]

In my opinion the conditions can't ever be met because they needed to be met by the exiles who lived at that time. They had to be ashamed of what they had done. I don't see where it says someone else could be ashamed for them.

Then the chapters 40-48 of Ezekiel isn't meant for all the generations, just that one. Seems like an awful waste of space if you ask me.

[Fenris]

I assume you are asking for an example of a conditional promise that God made? If so, here's a few:

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Deut 4:25 When thou shalt beget children, and children's children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger: 26I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that ye shall soon utterly perish from off the land whereunto ye go over Jordan to possess it; ye shall not prolong your days upon it, but shall utterly be destroyed.

Deut 8:19And it shall be, if thou do at all forget the LORD thy God, and walk after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I testify against you this day that ye shall surely perish.

These are not prophecies, these are covenantal conditions.

Isa 48:18O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea: 19Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof; his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.

This seems more of an "if only..." than an unfulfilled promise.

[rejoice44]

No one has shown that the second temple was not built to Ezekiel's specifications. You can't just say it wasn't big enough. There were exacting dimensions with breadth, length, and height. There where some dimensions without breadth or height. The Jews couldn't have been expected to build something that was not given these dimensions, therefore they must have other meanings.

In Ezekiel there are exacting measures that are well within abilities of the returning Jews to be able to build.

Ezekiel 41:1 So he measured the house, an hundred cubits long; and the separate place, and the building, with the walls thereof, an hundred cubits long;

Ezekiel described the porch as 20 cubits by 11 cubits, and according to a Jewish Rabbi in the Talmud the second temple was 20 cubits by 11 cubits, for the first temple was 20 cubits by 10 cubits. The altar also was enlarged 4 cubits to meet Ezekiel's dimensions.

The sons of Zadok were given specific duties in Ezekiel's temple and that was fulfilled.

Some body please explain exactly what was not built to Ezekiel's specifications regarding the Temple, besides a line 500 reeds by 500 reeds square with some type of wall 500 reeds by 500 reeds.