Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

[Fenris]

Some body please explain exactly what was not built to Ezekiel's specifications regarding the Temple, besides a line 500 reeds by 500 reeds square with some type of wall 500 reeds by 500 reeds.

Take it up with John146 who feels that it was never fulfilled and never will be.

[billy-brown 2]

No one shown that the second temple was not built to Ezekiel's specifications. You can't just say it wasn't big enough. There were exacting dimensions with breadth, length, and height. There where some dimensions without breadth or height. The Jews couldn't have been expected to build something that was not given these dimensions, therefore they must have other meanings.

In Ezekiel there are exacting measures that are well within abilities of the returning Jews to be able to build.

Ezekiel 41:1 So he measured the house, an hundred cubits long; and the separate place, and the building, with the walls thereof, an hundred cubits long;

Ezekiel described the porch as 20 cubits by 11 cubits, and according to a Jewish Rabbi in the Talmud the second temple was 20 cubits by 11 cubits, for the first temple was 20 cubits by 10 cubits. The altar also was enlarged 4 cubits to meet Ezekiel's dimensions.

The sons of Zadok were given specific duties in Ezekiel's temple and that was fulfilled.

Some body please explain exactly what was not built to Ezekiel's specifications regarding the Temple, besides a line 500 reeds by 500 reeds square with some type of wall 500 reeds by 500 reeds.

The prophecy of Gabriel (in Dan. 9) indicates that a sanctuary and city was to be built for the exiles; the sanctuary facility was Zerrubabbel's Temple.

And that temple is nothing like Ezekiel's Temple (you know, the one Ezekiel saw in a VISION) at all.

Also, the Lord provided ample prophetic command to His people for construction of Zerrubabbel's temple:

Ezra 6
13 Then Tattenai, the governor of the province beyond the River, Shethar-bozenai and their colleagues carried out the decree with all diligence, just as King Darius had sent.
14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building according to the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
15 This temple was completed on the third day of the month Adar; it was the sixth year of the reign of King Darius.
16 And the sons of Israel, the priests, the Levites and the rest of the exiles, celebrated the dedication of this house of God with joy.

On the other hand, Ezekiel's temple VISION was just that--a VISION of instruction to teach the Babylonian exiles to repent and obey the Law of Moses . . .

[Fenris]

On the other hand, Ezekiel's temple VISION was just that--a VISION of instruction to teach the Babylonian exiles to repent and obey the Law of Moses . . .

Again, I am kinda...ehhh... on this point. The prophecy goes on for 8 chapters in great detail. I don't see how the position of this or that makes for great incentive to repent.

[quiet dove]

Dearest Saints,

Might we start at the beginning with this?

First of all, Eze. 40:2 tells us exactly what Eze. 40-48 are:



Yep.

VISIONS OF GOD.

And we need not read anything else into it than that.

(This will help all of us in our interpretation aspects . . . )

The track record of "visions of God" in the Bible is 100% accurate fulfillment, so I guess I am missing your point of start at the beginning and this is a "vision"?

And believing a vision will come to pass as "visioned", is not reading anything into it

[billy-brown 2]

Again, I am kinda...ehhh... on this point. The prophecy goes on for 8 chapters in great detail. I don't see how the position of this or that makes for great incentive to repent.

Well, here's the reason that Judah was in captivity:

II Chron. 36
15The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;
16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
17Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
18All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
19Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

And the Lord wanted "just a little bit of shame" from His people, yes?

Eze. 43
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.

And the notion of "building" the temple VISION of Ezekiel on the earth is not at issue . . .

[rejoice44]

[QUOTE]

The prophecy of Gabriel (in Dan. 9) indicates that a sanctuary and city was to be built for the exiles; the sanctuary facility was Zerrubabbel's Temple.

And that temple is nothing like Ezekiel's Temple (you know, the one Ezekiel saw in a VISION) at all.

Where do you find the dimensions for Zerrubabbel's Temple?

On the other hand, Ezekiel's temple VISION was just that--a VISION of instruction to teach the Babylonian exiles to repent and obey the Law of Moses . . .

It was an actual temple that the sons of Zadok would be in charge of, and that happened.

[divaD]

Here's an argument that I've used before.

Ezekiel 44:17 And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.

Ezekiel 47:9 And it shall come to pass,, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh.

Ezekiel 47:10 And it shall come to pass,, that the fishers shall stand upon it from Engedi even unto Eneglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea, exceeding many.

Ezekiel 47:22 And it shall come to pass,, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

Ezekiel 47:23 And it shall come to pass,, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

Whom is saying these things shall come to pass? The LORD. So how do any of these ever come to pass if these prophecies in Ez 40-48 never get fulfilled? Since when did God start declaring things would come to pass that never come to pass? Wouldn't that make Him a liar or something? If the prophecies are conditional, then why ever declare something shall come to pass? What would the purpose of that be?

[Fenris]

Well, here's the reason that Judah was in captivity:

The captivity only lasted 70 years, though.

And the Lord wanted "just a little bit of shame" from His people, yes?

Doesn't address the issue I brought up. Ezekiel goes on for 8 chapters describing this temple in minute detail.

[Fenris]

Where do you find the dimensions for Zerrubabbel's Temple?

You know those dimensions are unknown. Presumably it was close in size to Solomon's temple, which was much smaller than Ezekiels. As was Herod's temple. And they were all the wrong shape, rectangular where Ezekiel's is square...

[quiet dove]

I'm just wondering if anyone has any examples of prophecies that never came to pass because they were conditional, meaning the conditions weren't meant? Aren't prophecies like promises from God? It seems more logical that prophecies wouldn't come to pass if certain conditions are met first, such as God promising to destroy people unless they meet His conditions first. And if they do meet His conditions first, the prophecy doesn't need to come to pass. But in Ez 40-48 it's the opposite concept, according to some views...the house of Israel didn't meet the conditions, now the prophecy is void.

That is the confusion regarding promises...Visions on the other hand, either are related or not related to a promise. With Ezekiel, the visions relating to the kingdom, would then relate back to Abraham and David, in this case the latter is easier to see.

God made David an unconditional promise...Davids "house", "kingdom" and "throne" would be established forever.(2Sam 7:16)

However, God also made it clear that those who strayed from Him would suffer the consequences and as we can see through out this history of Israel, and thus the "house" of David, the result of the disobedience....But that does not negate the promise of God made to David, and we know that the One to rule the "house" of David, plus the "kingdom" and "throne" of David, is Jesus. But to take the "house", "throne" and "kingdom" beyond the face value of the manner those terms are used of David, imho, leads to an incorrect understanding.

And the promise to David, as there is already an Heir...will be fulfilled because God will see to it, just as He saw to an Heir. Men could not provide the Heir, anymore than they could stop the providing of the Heir. God declared it and He will also accomplish it all...regardless of the failures of men. In other words, and obedient Heir to the "house", "throne", and "kingdom" we have....God will see to it that He purges disobedient from Davids people, Isreal also. Just as is given in the visions of Ezekiel, along with God's presence returning to the temple that will exist at that time.

While there are conditions in regards to Israel enjoying the promises to David, the promise to David itself was unconditional, so that means God will see to it that the promise to David is kept. And it seems equally clear in Ezekiel that that includes God bringing the nation to a place in which He will accomplish the promises

[rejoice44]

You know those dimensions are unknown. Presumably it was close in size to Solomon's temple, which was much smaller than Ezekiels. As was Herod's temple. And they were all the wrong shape, rectangular where Ezekiel's is square...

This is my point, if we don't know the dimensions then how do we know they were not the same? What proof is there that they were not the same?

[Fenris]

This is my point, if we don't know the dimensions then how do we know they were not the same? What proof is there that they were not the same?

Ezekiel's temple was bigger then the entire city of Jerusalem. Or are you going to talk about those invisible walls again?

[divaD]

This is my point, if we don't know the dimensions then how do we know they were not the same? What proof is there that they were not the same?

If the Ezekiel temple was the 2nd temple, then why was the 2nd temple destroyed? Where in Ez 40-48 does it ever give the impression this temple could be destroyed someday?

[quiet dove]

You know those dimensions are unknown. Presumably it was close in size to Solomon's temple, which was much smaller than Ezekiels. As was Herod's temple. And they were all the wrong shape, rectangular where Ezekiel's is square...

Question.

Was the Shekinah ever said to enter the second temple?

I don't think so and do think Ezekiel say that this will be the case with the temple he sees in the vision. Ezekiel saw God's presence leave the temple, and sees it return to a temple?

[divaD]

That is the confusion regarding promises...Visions on the other hand, either are related or not related to a promise. With Ezekiel, the visions relating to the kingdom, would then relate back to Abraham and David, in this case the latter is easier to see.

God made David an unconditional promise...Davids "house", "kingdom" and "throne" would be established forever.(2Sam 7:16)

However, God also made it clear that those who strayed from Him would suffer the consequences and as we can see through out this history of Israel, and thus the "house" of David, the result of the disobedience....But that does not negate the promise of God made to David, and we know that the One to rule the "house" of David, plus the "kingdom" and "throne" of David, is Jesus. But to take the "house", "throne" and "kingdom" beyond the face value of the manner those terms are used of David, imho, leads to an incorrect understanding.

And the promise to David, as there is already an Heir...will be fulfilled because God will see to it, just as He saw to an Heir. Men could not provide the Heir, anymore than they could stop the providing of the Heir. God declared it and He will also accomplish it all...regardless of the failures of men. In other words, and obedient Heir to the "house", "throne", and "kingdom" we have....God will see to it that He purges disobedient from Davids people, Isreal also. Just as is given in the visions of Ezekiel, along with God's presence returning to the temple that will exist at that time.

While there are conditions in regards to Israel enjoying the promises to David, the promise to David itself was unconditional, so that means God will see to it that the promise to David is kept. And it seems equally clear in Ezekiel that that includes God bringing the nation to a place in which He will accomplish the promises

I fully agree with how you've reasoned all of this out. But I still can't wrap my mind around animal sacrificing atoning for sins in the future. It just doesn't seem logical based on what Christ has accomplished. The context in these 8 chapters seem to be about the house of Israel. Why would they need to continue sacrificing animals in the future? Why haven't they been doing it for the past 2000 years then, if God finds this so necessary on their part?