Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

[divaD]

It seems it's time for another thread about these chapters. I'm probably not familiar with every view, in regards to these chapters, but some views I am familiar are, such as...1..these chapters are conditional..the house of Israel didn't live up to the conditions, thus this prophecy will never be fulfilled. 2..if this prophecy is never fulfilled, then Ezekiel was a false prophet. 3...this prophecy is being or will be fulfilled, just not literally, because it speaks of a spiritual temple, not a physical temple. 4...this prophecy will be fulfilled literally, but in the future. 5...this temple has aleady been built..it was the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. 6....#5 can't be true because none of the dimensions between the two match up.

Speaking for myself, I used to believe #1 was the correct conclusion. I now find that illogical based on a cpl of things.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If you look at this verse, there are no conditions. There is not an if anywhere in that verse. Let's look at this part...and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile.

With that in mind, let's look at another passage.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Read this verse in context. There are no conditions surrounding the fact that neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions. Ezekiel 37:23 states that God Himself will cleanse them. So why would the sense be any different in Ezekiel 43:7?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Notice that it is God that will not let them, meaning His people Israel, pollute His holy name any more.

So this would be why I no longer support #1. So which view do I now support? You got me? I'm still not certain what to make of these 8 chapters. Does anyone?

[quiet dove]

It seems it's time for another thread about these chapters. I'm probably not familiar with every view, in regards to these chapters, but some views I am familiar are, such as...1..these chapters are conditional..the house of Israel didn't live up to the conditions, thus this prophecy will never be fulfilled. 2..if this prophecy is never fulfilled, then Ezekiel was a false prophet. 3...this prophecy is being or will be fulfilled, just not literally, because it speaks of a spiritual temple, not a physical temple. 4...this prophecy will be fulfilled literally, but in the future. 5...this temple has aleady been built..it was the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. 6....#5 can't be true because none of the dimensions between the two match up.

Speaking for myself, I used to believe #1 was the correct conclusion. I now find that illogical based on a cpl of things.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If you look at this verse, there are no conditions. There is not an if anywhere in that verse. Let's look at this part...and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile.

With that in mind, let's look at another passage.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Read this verse in context. There are no conditions surrounding the fact that neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions. Ezekiel 37:23 states that God Himself will cleanse them. So why would the sense be any different in Ezekiel 43:7?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Notice that it is God that will not let them, meaning His people Israel, pollute His holy name any more.

So this would be why I no longer support #1. So which view do I now support? You got me? I'm still not certain what to make of these 8 chapters. Does anyone?

2 and 4 at the moment, the reason being that I don't doubt Ezekiel was a true prophet of God and know that no prophecy of God will fail. Though that does not equate to me saying I have full understanding of all of it....

And I agree with you in that it is something God will accomplish with His people....and God will not fail...the prophecy will come to pass....iimho

[divaD]

2 and 4 at the moment, the reason being that I don't doubt Ezekiel was a true prophet of God and know that no prophecy of God will fail. Though that does not equate to me saying I have full understanding of all of it....

And I agree with you in that it is something God will accomplish with His people....and God will not fail...the prophecy will come to pass....iimho

I'm just wondering if anyone has any examples of prophecies that never came to pass because they were conditional, meaning the conditions weren't meant? Aren't prophecies like promises from God? It seems more logical that prophecies wouldn't come to pass if certain conditions are met first, such as God promising to destroy people unless they meet His conditions first. And if they do meet His conditions first, the prophecy doesn't need to come to pass. But in Ez 40-48 it's the opposite concept, according to some views...the house of Israel didn't meet the conditions, now the prophecy is void.

[billy-brown 2]

I'm just wondering if anyone has any examples of prophecies that never came to pass because they were conditional, meaning the conditions weren't meant? Aren't prophecies like promises from God? It seems more logical that prophecies wouldn't come to pass if certain conditions are met first, such as God promising to destroy people unless they meet His conditions first. And if they do meet His conditions first, the prophecy doesn't need to come to pass. But in Ez 40-48 it's the opposite concept, according to some views...the house of Israel didn't meet the conditions, now the prophecy is void.

Let's see . . .

We do remember that the people of Israel (Judah!) was in captivity for a specific reason, yes? And so, in year 25, Ezekiel gets a VISION of a temple; this VISION was supposed to be shown to the exiles of those days:

Eze. 40
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

But why? Here we are:

Eze. 43
10“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.

Yep.

God wanted Israel to do His statues--per usual. After all, they were in captivity because they did not do His statues; they were not in captivity for no reason:

II Chron. 36
15The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;
16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
17Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
18All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
19Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

And these truths are critical to "getting to the bottom" of Eze. 40-48 . . .

[Fenris]

This topic really seems to come up a lot lately.

OK, if a "prophecy" is not ever fulfilled then whoever said it is a false prophet.

No one wants to accept that Ezekiel was a false prophet.

Therefore, his prophecies will come true.

Ok, so this is a Christian crowd here. That means prophecies can be fulfilled "literally" or "spiritually". Where does Ezekiel 40-48 fit into that?


Well.....

If Ezekiel only mentioned a "temple" without going into any great detail, maybe that could be filled metaphorically or something. But Ezekiel goes on and on. For 8 chapters. He provides a tremendous amount of detail, enough that makes it obvious (to me!) that's he describing a physical edifice.


Just my opinion.

[billy-brown 2]

This topic really seems to come up a lot lately.

OK, if a "prophecy" is not ever fulfilled then whoever said it is a false prophet.

No one wants to accept that Ezekiel was a false prophet.

Therefore, his prophecies will come true.

Ok, so this is a Christian crowd here. That means prophecies can be fulfilled "literally" or "spiritually". Where does Ezekiel 40-48 fit into that?


Well.....

If Ezekiel only mentioned a "temple" without going into any great detail, maybe that could be filled metaphorically or something. But Ezekiel goes on and on. For 8 chapters. He provides a tremendous amount of detail, enough that makes it obvious (to me!) that's he describing a physical edifice.


Just my opinion.

Hi Fenris,

Well, Ezekiel was asked to do some things, yes?

Eze. 43
10a“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, . . .

Now why?

Eze. 43
10b that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.

However, we have the following addendum:

Eze. 43
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may . . .

1) observe its whole design and all its statutes and

2) do them.

Yep.

Do them . . . Indeed, do the statutes of the temple.

And only "If they are ashamed" were they shown this VISION and so on.

In other words, the VISION of these chapters are a simple set of instructions to the captive exiles to repent, and do the Law of Moses. And they were in captivity in Babylon because they did not do the law of Moses . . . And after the VISION came in year 25 of the captivity, there were 45 additional years available for "ashamed" activity and so on. Did that happen?

[Fenris]

And only "If they are ashamed" were they shown this VISION and so on. ...

Did that happen?

Obviously yes, since we have his vision in our bible.

[billy-brown 2]

Obviously yes, since we have his vision in our bible.

When were they ashamed?

[Fenris]

When were they ashamed?

Dunno, whenever it was they got this vision. Otherwise we wouldn't have it in the bible, see?

[billy-brown 2]

Dunno, whenever it was they got this vision. Otherwise we wouldn't have it in the bible, see?

LOL

It is written that Ezekiel received the vision:

Eze. 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

[Fenris]

It is written that Ezekiel received the vision:

Your point being...?

[billy-brown 2]

Your point being...?

My point is that the VISION was to be shared with the exiles on condition--upon the "ashamed" posture of the exiles.

[Fenris]

My point is that the VISION was to be shared with the exiles on condition--upon the "ashamed" posture of the exiles.

And it was shared. That's how it made it into the bible.

[billy-brown 2]

And it was shared. That's how it made it into the bible.

LOL

However, Ezekiel was in VISION mode (under the power of the Lord) for the bulk of the chapters in question (Eze. 40-48). How do we know that he shared the VISION with the exiles?

[John146]

LOL

However, Ezekiel was in VISION mode (under the power of the Lord) for the bulk of the chapters in question (Eze. 40-48). How do we know that he shared the VISION with the exiles?

We don't. Just because we can read it now in our Bibles doesn't mean those exiles ever saw what is written there. I don't see any evidence that they (the house of Israel that existed at that time) were ever ashamed of what they had done so if Ezekiel still showed "them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof", etc. then he would have been going against what God told him to do.