Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

[divaD]

It seems it's time for another thread about these chapters. I'm probably not familiar with every view, in regards to these chapters, but some views I am familiar are, such as...1..these chapters are conditional..the house of Israel didn't live up to the conditions, thus this prophecy will never be fulfilled. 2..if this prophecy is never fulfilled, then Ezekiel was a false prophet. 3...this prophecy is being or will be fulfilled, just not literally, because it speaks of a spiritual temple, not a physical temple. 4...this prophecy will be fulfilled literally, but in the future. 5...this temple has aleady been built..it was the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. 6....#5 can't be true because none of the dimensions between the two match up.

Speaking for myself, I used to believe #1 was the correct conclusion. I now find that illogical based on a cpl of things.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If you look at this verse, there are no conditions. There is not an if anywhere in that verse. Let's look at this part...and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile.

With that in mind, let's look at another passage.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Read this verse in context. There are no conditions surrounding the fact that neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions. Ezekiel 37:23 states that God Himself will cleanse them. So why would the sense be any different in Ezekiel 43:7?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Notice that it is God that will not let them, meaning His people Israel, pollute His holy name any more.

So this would be why I no longer support #1. So which view do I now support? You got me? I'm still not certain what to make of these 8 chapters. Does anyone?

[quiet dove]

It seems it's time for another thread about these chapters. I'm probably not familiar with every view, in regards to these chapters, but some views I am familiar are, such as...1..these chapters are conditional..the house of Israel didn't live up to the conditions, thus this prophecy will never be fulfilled. 2..if this prophecy is never fulfilled, then Ezekiel was a false prophet. 3...this prophecy is being or will be fulfilled, just not literally, because it speaks of a spiritual temple, not a physical temple. 4...this prophecy will be fulfilled literally, but in the future. 5...this temple has aleady been built..it was the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. 6....#5 can't be true because none of the dimensions between the two match up.

Speaking for myself, I used to believe #1 was the correct conclusion. I now find that illogical based on a cpl of things.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If you look at this verse, there are no conditions. There is not an if anywhere in that verse. Let's look at this part...and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile.

With that in mind, let's look at another passage.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Read this verse in context. There are no conditions surrounding the fact that neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions. Ezekiel 37:23 states that God Himself will cleanse them. So why would the sense be any different in Ezekiel 43:7?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Notice that it is God that will not let them, meaning His people Israel, pollute His holy name any more.

So this would be why I no longer support #1. So which view do I now support? You got me? I'm still not certain what to make of these 8 chapters. Does anyone?

2 and 4 at the moment, the reason being that I don't doubt Ezekiel was a true prophet of God and know that no prophecy of God will fail. Though that does not equate to me saying I have full understanding of all of it....

And I agree with you in that it is something God will accomplish with His people....and God will not fail...the prophecy will come to pass....iimho

[billy-brown 2]

2 and 4 at the moment, the reason being that I don't doubt Ezekiel was a true prophet of God and know that no prophecy of God will fail. Though that does not equate to me saying I have full understanding of all of it....

And I agree with you in that it is something God will accomplish with His people....and God will not fail...the prophecy will come to pass....iimho

It seems it's time for another thread about these chapters. I'm probably not familiar with every view, in regards to these chapters, but some views I am familiar are, such as...1..these chapters are conditional..the house of Israel didn't live up to the conditions, thus this prophecy will never be fulfilled. 2..if this prophecy is never fulfilled, then Ezekiel was a false prophet. 3...this prophecy is being or will be fulfilled, just not literally, because it speaks of a spiritual temple, not a physical temple. 4...this prophecy will be fulfilled literally, but in the future. 5...this temple has aleady been built..it was the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. 6....#5 can't be true because none of the dimensions between the two match up.

Speaking for myself, I used to believe #1 was the correct conclusion. I now find that illogical based on a cpl of things.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If you look at this verse, there are no conditions. There is not an if anywhere in that verse. Let's look at this part...and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile.

With that in mind, let's look at another passage.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Read this verse in context. There are no conditions surrounding the fact that neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions. Ezekiel 37:23 states that God Himself will cleanse them. So why would the sense be any different in Ezekiel 43:7?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Notice that it is God that will not let them, meaning His people Israel, pollute His holy name any more.

So this would be why I no longer support #1. So which view do I now support? You got me? I'm still not certain what to make of these 8 chapters. Does anyone?

Dearest Saints,

Might we start at the beginning with this?

First of all, Eze. 40:2 tells us exactly what Eze. 40-48 are:

Eze. 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.

Yep.

VISIONS OF GOD.

And we need not read anything else into it than that.

(This will help all of us in our interpretation aspects . . . )

[divaD]

2 and 4 at the moment, the reason being that I don't doubt Ezekiel was a true prophet of God and know that no prophecy of God will fail. Though that does not equate to me saying I have full understanding of all of it....

And I agree with you in that it is something God will accomplish with His people....and God will not fail...the prophecy will come to pass....iimho

I'm just wondering if anyone has any examples of prophecies that never came to pass because they were conditional, meaning the conditions weren't meant? Aren't prophecies like promises from God? It seems more logical that prophecies wouldn't come to pass if certain conditions are met first, such as God promising to destroy people unless they meet His conditions first. And if they do meet His conditions first, the prophecy doesn't need to come to pass. But in Ez 40-48 it's the opposite concept, according to some views...the house of Israel didn't meet the conditions, now the prophecy is void.

[divaD]

Dearest Saints,

Might we start at the beginning with this?

First of all, Eze. 40:2 tells us exactly what Eze. 40-48 are:



Yep.

VISIONS OF GOD.

And we need not read anything else into it than that.

(This will help all of us in our interpretation aspects . . . )

So why would the fact that it is a vision have to do with anything? You don't think visions can have literal fulfillments?


Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

A vision was involved here, correct? Did anything in this vision literally occur?

[billy-brown 2]

I'm just wondering if anyone has any examples of prophecies that never came to pass because they were conditional, meaning the conditions weren't meant? Aren't prophecies like promises from God? It seems more logical that prophecies wouldn't come to pass if certain conditions are met first, such as God promising to destroy people unless they meet His conditions first. And if they do meet His conditions first, the prophecy doesn't need to come to pass. But in Ez 40-48 it's the opposite concept, according to some views...the house of Israel didn't meet the conditions, now the prophecy is void.

Let's see . . .

We do remember that the people of Israel (Judah!) was in captivity for a specific reason, yes? And so, in year 25, Ezekiel gets a VISION of a temple; this VISION was supposed to be shown to the exiles of those days:

Eze. 40
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

But why? Here we are:

Eze. 43
10“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.

Yep.

God wanted Israel to do His statues--per usual. After all, they were in captivity because they did not do His statues; they were not in captivity for no reason:

II Chron. 36
15The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;
16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
17Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
18All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
19Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

And these truths are critical to "getting to the bottom" of Eze. 40-48 . . .

[billy-brown 2]

So why would the fact that it is a vision have to do with anything? You don't think visions can have literal fulfillments?


Acts 9:11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.

A vision was involved here, correct? Did anything in this vision literally occur?

Well, remember that VISIONS are provided sometimes for instruction purposes; after all, Paul was instructed in that particular VISION, yes?

And Ezekiel was heavily "in the Spirit" in his VISION-- and for the entire 9 chapters of Eze. 40-48.

And so, did he ever "come out" of the VISION state? (There is no "Chapter 49" of Ezekiel that would help us in this . . .)

[Fenris]

This topic really seems to come up a lot lately.

OK, if a "prophecy" is not ever fulfilled then whoever said it is a false prophet.

No one wants to accept that Ezekiel was a false prophet.

Therefore, his prophecies will come true.

Ok, so this is a Christian crowd here. That means prophecies can be fulfilled "literally" or "spiritually". Where does Ezekiel 40-48 fit into that?


Well.....

If Ezekiel only mentioned a "temple" without going into any great detail, maybe that could be filled metaphorically or something. But Ezekiel goes on and on. For 8 chapters. He provides a tremendous amount of detail, enough that makes it obvious (to me!) that's he describing a physical edifice.


Just my opinion.

[John146]

5...this temple has aleady been built..it was the 2nd temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. 6....#5 can't be true because none of the dimensions between the two match up.

Are there some who believe in this option? If so how do they explain the dimensions of the 2nd temple not matching what is described in Ezekiel?

Speaking for myself, I used to believe #1 was the correct conclusion. I now find that illogical based on a cpl of things.

Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

If you look at this verse, there are no conditions.

But if you continue reading you start seeing conditions so I believe you have to take the whole thing in context. Just because the conditions aren't specifically stated in that verse doesn't mean they aren't stated elsewhere, such as in verse 11.

Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Can the prophecy only be conditional if it's mentioned repeatedly throughout the prophecy that it's conditional? I don't believe so.

There is not an if anywhere in that verse. Let's look at this part...and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile.

With that in mind, let's look at another passage.

Ezekiel 37:23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.

Read this verse in context. There are no conditions surrounding the fact that neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions. Ezekiel 37:23 states that God Himself will cleanse them. So why would the sense be any different in Ezekiel 43:7?

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Notice that it is God that will not let them, meaning His people Israel, pollute His holy name any more.

So this would be why I no longer support #1. So which view do I now support? You got me? I'm still not certain what to make of these 8 chapters. Does anyone?

I hold to option #1 and do not believe that it can't be conditional just because it doesn't specifically say so in Eze 43:7. What do you make of Eze 43:11 then?

As far as the other options you listed I don't find any of them to be viable. The prophecy itself indicates what the purpose of the sin offerings that it mentions would be.

Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Eze 46:20 Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.

The problem with seeing this prophecy as being fulfilled literally in the future is that it doesn't make sense to believe in future sin offerings that would "make reconciliation for the house of Israel" and "sanctify the people" since only Christ's sacrifice can accomplish those things. If the whole thing is a figurative representation of the spiritual temple of God then I'm not sure why it would contain so many details and instructions about how things would be done and so on. That sure doesn't look like figurative language to me. As for option #2, we can rule that out because we know Ezekiel was not a false prophet and that there are no prophecies that get left unfulfilled unless they are conditional and the conditions weren't met.

[billy-brown 2]

This topic really seems to come up a lot lately.

OK, if a "prophecy" is not ever fulfilled then whoever said it is a false prophet.

No one wants to accept that Ezekiel was a false prophet.

Therefore, his prophecies will come true.

Ok, so this is a Christian crowd here. That means prophecies can be fulfilled "literally" or "spiritually". Where does Ezekiel 40-48 fit into that?


Well.....

If Ezekiel only mentioned a "temple" without going into any great detail, maybe that could be filled metaphorically or something. But Ezekiel goes on and on. For 8 chapters. He provides a tremendous amount of detail, enough that makes it obvious (to me!) that's he describing a physical edifice.


Just my opinion.

Hi Fenris,

Well, Ezekiel was asked to do some things, yes?

Eze. 43
10a“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, . . .

Now why?

Eze. 43
10b that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.

However, we have the following addendum:

Eze. 43
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may . . .

1) observe its whole design and all its statutes and

2) do them.

Yep.

Do them . . . Indeed, do the statutes of the temple.

And only "If they are ashamed" were they shown this VISION and so on.

In other words, the VISION of these chapters are a simple set of instructions to the captive exiles to repent, and do the Law of Moses. And they were in captivity in Babylon because they did not do the law of Moses . . . And after the VISION came in year 25 of the captivity, there were 45 additional years available for "ashamed" activity and so on. Did that happen?

[John146]

I'm just wondering if anyone has any examples of prophecies that never came to pass because they were conditional, meaning the conditions weren't meant?

Yes. Here is one:

Jonah 3:1 And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, 2Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. 3So Jonah arose, and went unto Nineveh, according to the word of the LORD. Now Nineveh was an exceeding great city of three days' journey. 4And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.

Okay, so the original prophecy God gave to Jonah was that Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days. Is that what happened? No. Why not? Because it was a conditional prophecy. What were the conditions?

Jonah 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands. 9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? 10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

The condition was that if the people of Nineveh repented of their evil ways then God would not destroy them, otherwise He would. So, just because a prophecy is not fulfilled due to the conditions of the prophecy not being met doesn't mean it isn't a prophecy. It's just a conditional prophecy in that case.

Aren't prophecies like promises from God?

Can't He make conditional promises? Such as the promise that if someone believes in His Son they will have eternal life and if they don't they won't?

It seems more logical that prophecies wouldn't come to pass if certain conditions are met first, such as God promising to destroy people unless they meet His conditions first.

The example I gave above is an example of that. Is that not a conditional prophecy? If so doesn't that answer your question as to whether there are conditinal prophecies or not? Why can't the Ezekiel 40-48 prophecy be conditional, knowing that prophecies can be conditional?

And if they do meet His conditions first, the prophecy doesn't need to come to pass. But in Ez 40-48 it's the opposite concept, according to some views...the house of Israel didn't meet the conditions, now the prophecy is void.

So? If there are such things as conditional prophecies, and I think there clearly are, then why can't it be conditional in a different way than, say, the prophecy regarding the destruction of Nineveh?

[Fenris]

And only "If they are ashamed" were they shown this VISION and so on. ...

Did that happen?

Obviously yes, since we have his vision in our bible.

[billy-brown 2]

Obviously yes, since we have his vision in our bible.

When were they ashamed?

[Fenris]

Why can't the Ezekiel 40-48 prophecy be conditional, knowing that prophecies can be conditional?

This is the crux of your post here. Why can't the things Ezekiel said be conditional?

Well, for one thing, conditional implies that God uses the term "if". But leave that aside for a moment. As I've pointed out elsewhere, recently, God's word in Ezekiel is decidedly non-conditional. More than once God promises to redeem the Jewish captives not because they deserve it- but for the sake of His name.

For example, we have chapter 36-

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye came. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses; and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye may receive no more the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then shall ye remember your evil ways, and your doings that were not good; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you; be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. {S} 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD: In the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be builded. 34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, whereas it was a desolation in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say: This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited. 36 Then the nations that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD have builded the ruined places, and planted that which was desolate; I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.


No conditions applied at all.

[Fenris]

When were they ashamed?

Dunno, whenever it was they got this vision. Otherwise we wouldn't have it in the bible, see?