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Thread: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

  1. #16

    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    I hold to the 'conditional' perspective, hinging on verses 43.10-11.

    'Prophecies' are the words of a person appointed by God to serve as his spokesperson. Part of Ezekiel's prophecy was the (brief, but still relevant) condition that 'If X, then Y'. There was no Y, and seen retrospectively through the works of Jesus and through Apostolic teaching can't / won't happen... which means X didn't happen.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    Are there some who believe in this option? If so how do they explain the dimensions of the 2nd temple not matching what is described in Ezekiel?
    At least one person that I know of on this board seems to. That was the sense I was getting as I was reading his exchanges with Fenris in a thread in BC just recently. But maybe I was just misunderstanding things, but it did seem he held to this view.


    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    But if you continue reading you start seeing conditions so I believe you have to take the whole thing in context. Just because the conditions aren't specifically stated in that verse doesn't mean they aren't stated elsewhere, such as in verse 11.

    Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

    Can the prophecy only be conditional if it's mentioned repeatedly throughout the prophecy that it's conditional? I don't believe so.

    I hold to option #1 and do not believe that it can't be conditional just because it doesn't specifically say so in Eze 43:7. What do you make of Eze 43:11 then?
    I'm kind of thinking along the same lines that I think Fenris is thinking..and that would be, if this was conditional, based on whether they are ashamed or not, and if they weren't, then how was it that they were able to see the laws and ordinances of the house, etc? You would think that part of the vision should have stayed between God and Ezekiel if the house of Israel failed to live up to that condition, but somehow it ended up in the Bible. And if we can see it, then I would think the house of Israel could see it as well.







    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    As far as the other options you listed I don't find any of them to be viable. The prophecy itself indicates what the purpose of the sin offerings that it mentions would be.

    Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

    Eze 46:20 Then said he unto me, This is the place where the priests shall boil the trespass offering and the sin offering, where they shall bake the meat offering; that they bear them not out into the utter court, to sanctify the people.

    The problem with seeing this prophecy as being fulfilled literally in the future is that it doesn't make sense to believe in future sin offerings that would "make reconciliation for the house of Israel" and "sanctify the people" since only Christ's sacrifice can accomplish those things..
    It doesn't make sense to me either And since the blood of animals can never take away sin on a permanent basis, then it seems like they would have to be doing that forever, which seems even stranger, especially if one is a Christian and believes in Jesus and what He did..

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Here's a more general question. Do we have any examples of God's promises to the Jews not coming true?
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Dunno, whenever it was they got this vision. Otherwise we wouldn't have it in the bible, see?
    LOL

    It is written that Ezekiel received the vision:

    Eze. 40
    1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
    2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
    3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
    4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”
    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by billy-brown 2 View Post
    It is written that Ezekiel received the vision:
    Your point being...?
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    This is the crux of your post here. Why can't the things Ezekiel said be conditional?

    Well, for one thing, conditional implies that God uses the term "if". But leave that aside for a moment. As I've pointed out elsewhere, recently, God's word in Ezekiel is decidedly non-conditional. More than once God promises to redeem the Jewish captives not because they deserve it- but for the sake of His name.

    For example, we have chapter 36-

    22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye came. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses; and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye may receive no more the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then shall ye remember your evil ways, and your doings that were not good; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you; be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. {S} 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD: In the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be builded. 34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, whereas it was a desolation in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say: This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited. 36 Then the nations that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD have builded the ruined places, and planted that which was desolate; I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.


    No conditions applied at all.
    However, if YHWH wants the exiles to repent from sin and obey the statues of Moses and so on, then a response to the VISION of Ezekiel 40-48 is necessary:

    Eze. 43
    10“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
    11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.
    And the exiles had 45 years to have an "ashamed" posture toward the Lord thy God. And so, where is the "shame" from the exiles in Ezekiel's text?
    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Your point being...?
    My point is that the VISION was to be shared with the exiles on condition--upon the "ashamed" posture of the exiles.
    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by billy-brown 2 View Post
    My point is that the VISION was to be shared with the exiles on condition--upon the "ashamed" posture of the exiles.
    And it was shared. That's how it made it into the bible.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    This is the crux of your post here. Why can't the things Ezekiel said be conditional?

    Well, for one thing, conditional implies that God uses the term "if".
    See Ezekiel 43:11.

    But leave that aside for a moment. As I've pointed out elsewhere, recently, God's word in Ezekiel is decidedly non-conditional. More than once God promises to redeem the Jewish captives not because they deserve it- but for the sake of His name.

    For example, we have chapter 36-

    22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel: Thus saith the Lord GOD: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye came. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses; and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye may receive no more the reproach of famine among the nations. 31 Then shall ye remember your evil ways, and your doings that were not good; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sake do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you; be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel. {S} 33 Thus saith the Lord GOD: In the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places shall be builded. 34 And the land that was desolate shall be tilled, whereas it was a desolation in the sight of all that passed by. 35 And they shall say: This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are fortified and inhabited. 36 Then the nations that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD have builded the ruined places, and planted that which was desolate; I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.


    No conditions applied at all.
    I'm not saying all of the prophecies in the entire book are conditional, I'm just saying I believe Ezekiel 40-48 in particular was conditional. What you're saying here does not prove that Ezekiel 40-48 can't be conditional.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    And it was shared. That's how it made it into the bible.
    LOL

    However, Ezekiel was in VISION mode (under the power of the Lord) for the bulk of the chapters in question (Eze. 40-48). How do we know that he shared the VISION with the exiles?
    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    At least one person that I know of on this board seems to. That was the sense I was getting as I was reading his exchanges with Fenris in a thread in BC just recently. But maybe I was just misunderstanding things, but it did seem he held to this view.
    It's clearly an unsustainable view since the second temple clearly did not match the description of the temple found in Ezekiel 40-48. Not even close. So, we can safely rule that option out.

    I'm kind of thinking along the same lines that I think Fenris is thinking
    That's interesting.

    and that would be, if this was conditional, based on whether they are ashamed or not, and if they weren't, then how was it that they were able to see the laws and ordinances of the house, etc? You would think that part of the vision should have stayed between God and Ezekiel if the house of Israel failed to live up to that condition, but somehow it ended up in the Bible. And if we can see it, then I would think the house of Israel could see it as well.
    But did Ezekiel show it to them? The prophecy says that if they were ashamed of all that they had done then Ezekiel himself would show them "the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof", etc. So, did he do that? I guess there's no way to prove that one way or another but I don't see any evidence that the house of Israel that existed in those days ever repented of their ways. If they didn't then I'm sure Ezekiel would not have shown them ""the form of the house, and the fashion thereof", etc. since a condition for him doing that was that they had to be ashamed of what they had done.

    It doesn't make sense to me either And since the blood of animals can never take away sin on a permanent basis, then it seems like they would have to be doing that forever, which seems even stranger, especially if one is a Christian and believes in Jesus and what He did..
    At least we agree on this.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Here's a more general question. Do we have any examples of God's promises to the Jews not coming true?
    Not His unconditional promises. But whether or not His conditional promises came true depended on whether the conditions were met or not.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by billy-brown 2 View Post
    LOL

    However, Ezekiel was in VISION mode (under the power of the Lord) for the bulk of the chapters in question (Eze. 40-48). How do we know that he shared the VISION with the exiles?
    We don't. Just because we can read it now in our Bibles doesn't mean those exiles ever saw what is written there. I don't see any evidence that they (the house of Israel that existed at that time) were ever ashamed of what they had done so if Ezekiel still showed "them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof", etc. then he would have been going against what God told him to do.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by John146 View Post
    We don't. Just because we can read it now in our Bibles doesn't mean those exiles ever saw what is written there. I don't see any evidence that they (the house of Israel that existed at that time) were ever ashamed of what they had done so if Ezekiel still showed "them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof", etc. then he would have been going against what God told him to do.
    Yep. You got it . . .

    Ezekiel's sharing of the VISION of Eze. 40-48 with the exiles required the "ashamed" posture of the exiles--and there is no record in Ezekiel's writings that they were "ashamed" at all.
    Grace and peace,

    Billy-brown 2


    I Peter 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

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    Re: Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by billy-brown 2 View Post
    LOL

    However, Ezekiel was in VISION mode (under the power of the Lord) for the bulk of the chapters in question (Eze. 40-48). How do we know that he shared the VISION with the exiles?
    If he didn't, it wouldn't be in the bible.
    As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit who is on you, and My words that I have put in your mouth, will not depart from your mouth, or from the mouth of your children, or from the mouth of your children's children, from now on and forever," says the LORD.


    Isaiah 59:21

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