Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

[divaD]

Just as Ezekiel 44:9 speaks that No stranger shall enter the sanctuary of God, would you agree that no one that is uncircumised in their heart will enter the kingdom of God?

I'm glad you brought that up. Ezekiel also says the following.

Ezekiel 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

Why didn't you also mention this part....nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary. How do you make that work spiritually? That's not what the NT says.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Keep in mind the context of Ez 40-48. It's about the house of Israel, and strangers in relation to them..

As far as those 2 passages I provided via the NT. Those would need to be understood spiritually. I don't see Ezekiel 44:9 being linked to those 2 NT passages.

[Beckrl]

I'm glad you brought that up. Ezekiel also says the following.

Ezekiel 44:9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

Why didn't you also mention this part....nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary. How do you make that work spiritually? That's not what the NT says.

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Keep in mind the context of Ez 40-48. It's about the house of Israel, and strangers in relation to them..

As far as those 2 passages I provided via the NT. Those would need to be understood spiritually. I don't see Ezekiel 44:9 being linked to those 2 NT passages.

What I believe is being said is that the house of Israel in times passed was setting strangers at the gate to do the service for Israel. (Ezek.44:8) and even allowed to enter the sanctuary and be the keeper of the holy things. God is saying by Ezekiel that will not be premitted in this sanctuary. In that sence Ezekiel by God is proclaiming that no stranger is to do the work and service of the priest, save only those priest.

It would be fair to say that even among the childern of Israel that a stranger like unto a proselyte would still not be able to enter the sanctuary of God and to do the service of the priest. Some proselytes were only permitted to come to the gate and not to enter.

Therefore who are the keepers of the gate of the kingdom? The priest and they shall do the service of God and not some unrepented and unclean stranger.

Ephesians 2:12-22 speaks of Gentiles of the flesh as being no more strangers having access by the Spirit of God of the house of God. Which are built upon the foundations of the apostles and prophets, Jesus christ an holy temple. These are consider to be a royal preisthood.

So the key is that of the uncircumised heart to those who haven't repented or become ashamed of their abominations will be as strangers and not allowed to enter. This same is written by John in Revelation of those Gentiles what defile and work abominations shall no wise enter that city. (Revelation 21:27)

[billy-brown 2]

Yep.

And so, do you see what this passage is saying?

Ummm no..... I don't

Let's see . . . here is the passage again--with some brief commentary:

Ezekiel 40
1 In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.

This verse indicates that "the hand of the Lord" (the power of the Lord) was upon Ezekiel in year 25 of the Babylonian captivity.

Ezekiel 40
2 In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.

While Ezekiel was in year 25 of the captivity, Ezekiel was "transported" (through the power of "the hand of the Lord") to the land of Israel and placed on a high mountain; this was indeed a VISION state that Ezekiel was in--and while still being in Babylon physically.

Ezekiel 40
3 So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.

Ezekiel saw in his VISION a bronze man with measuring materials in his hand--and the bronze man was standing in the gateway.

Ezekiel 40
4 The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

Ezekiel was instructed by the bronze man that he saw in his VISION--and while in the VISION state in Israel on a a high mountain. But nevertheless, Ezekiel was still in Babylon physically. In other words, Ezekiel saw a VISION--and what he saw was a "vision construct" indeed.

Does this make sense?

[Buddy]

To the OP:

Yes it is possible

This vision is one of the future and it describes the Lord's coming millennial reign upon the earth in relation to His millennial temple and the core description of Israel at the center of His kingdom

[jeffweeder]

To the OP:

Yes it is possible

This vision is one of the future and it describes the Lord's coming millennial reign upon the earth in relation to His millennial temple and the core description of Israel at the center of His kingdom

Greetings and welcome.
I always thought that those who are born of the Spirit would be the centre of his kingdom...the only ones who could possibly enter his kingdom.

[Buddy]

Jeff

You speak of His immortal church who will rule with Him over His coming millennial kingdom on the earth which will be a kingdom of mortals

He has delayed His future restoration of the kingdom to Israel because the nation rejected Him in the first century

A believing remnant of the nation will emerge at the time of the end and it is these who will enter and populate His future millennial kingdom which will be on the earth

This kingdom of His intent will be centered in Jerusalem and will last for 1000 years .... and then, after another human rebellion, He will judge the dead [all unbelievers] and proceed to restore the original creation of the heavens and the earth for all eternity

There is a distinct difference between the mystery kingdom of His church [which already exists] and His coming millennial kingdom of mortals upon the earth according to His intent and according to scripture

[jeffweeder]

Ill refrain from commenting on the millenium in respect of the OP.

What are your thoughts on the size of this temple if you believe it will be built.

[Buddy]

The stature of the Lord's millennial temple will be of extreme size and the dimensions are given in Ezekiel's vision

Israel's borders will be expanded as well [Genesis 15:18; Deuteronomy 11:24]

even the area where the millennial temple stands will be greatly enlarged [Zechariah 14:6-11]

The battle of Armageddon will result in this expansion as the victory goes to the Lord and His remnant nation of Israel [Ezekiel 39:11-29; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5:1-8; Zechariah 12:1-9]

There will be another "eternal" setting of the city of Jerusalem that will supernaturally transcend from "heaven" to a restored earth and universe just after the 1000 years are over ..... and there will be no physical temple of the Lord's in this city for He will be the "temple" Himself [Revelation 21]

[rejoice44]

The stature of the Lord's millennial temple will be of extreme size and the dimensions are given in Ezekiel's vision

The actual dimensions given in Ezekiel is 52 X 20.8 square miles which is actually smaller than what we now see for the state of Israel. These dimensions are not for the temple per Se. The dimensions of 25,000 X 10,000 reeds which actually comes out to 52 X 20.8 square miles was for the tribes of Israel.

The dimensions of 500 reeds square was within the 25,000 X 10,000 reeds area and amounted to a little less than 7 hundred acres, which is the outer perimeter of Old Jerusalem. The dimension of 500 reeds square was given as a line with a wall around it. If you look at Zechariah 1:16, God said he will stretch a line upon Jerusalem.

Zechariah 1:16 Therefore thus saith the LORD; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the LORD of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.

This line, in my opinion, is the 500 reed measurement given Ezekiel and the wall that encompasses that line will be a wall of fire provided by God, and similar to the chariots of fire surrounding Elisha and his servant. Remember the servant could not see fiery chariots.

Zechariah 2:5 For I, saith the LORD, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.

God is the wall that Ezekiel measured. First Ezekiel measured a line of 500 reeds square, and then right on top of the line is a wall of 500 reeds. It seems pretty clear.

We know that the altar was built to Ezekiel's dimensions, as well as the porch, therefore there is no reason to believe that Ezekiel's temple was not the second temple.

[Buddy]

"therefore there is no reason to believe that Ezekiel's temple was not the second temple"

Yes there is:


Isaiah
2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Micah
4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

4:2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Zechariah
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Some interpreters use selective historical allegory to explain away portions of the future literal unfulfilled content of the prophetic visions in order to support theologies that embrace variants of preterism .... I do not

These various views also discount a future literal Israel in the land at the time of the end, and even go to the extent of denying the Lord's second coming by teaching that it happened in 70 A.D.

All visionary prophecy should be interpreted the same .... as literal .... unless symbolism is used which is always explained literally in the immediate context or in other related scriptures

If past events of the visions were fulfilled literally, then there is no good reason for treating the unfulfilled portions differently by relegating them to selective and proprietary allegory

[rejoice44]

"therefore there is no reason to believe that Ezekiel's temple was not the second temple"

Yes there is:

Isaiah
2:1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

2:3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Zechariah
14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

14:10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

14:11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

14:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14:14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

14:15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

14:17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

14:18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

What does that have to do with Ezekiel's temple? It is not said that Ezekiel's temple will be built in the last days. Ezekiel said the sons of Zadok would rule in the temple he described, and they did.

[Buddy]

I must repeat this:

Some interpreters use selective historical allegory to explain away portions of the future literal unfulfilled content of the prophetic visions in order to support theologies that embrace variants of preterism .... I do not

These various views also discount a future literal Israel in the land at the time of the end, and even go to the extent of denying the Lord's second coming by teaching that it happened in 70 A.D.

All visionary prophecy should be interpreted the same .... as literal .... unless symbolism is used which is always explained literally in the immediate context or in other related scriptures

If past events of the visions were fulfilled literally, then there is no good reason for treating the unfulfilled portions differently by relegating them to selective and proprietary allegory

The divide between the literal and allegorical interpretations of prophetic scripture is a big one .... one must choose one, or the other

[divaD]

I was kind of skimming thru the book of Zechariah again, with the following thoughts coming to mind. As far as Zechariah and the 2nd temple allegedly in the context, how does one then make the building of the 2nd temple fit with the following passages?

Zechariah 6:12 And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13 Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

Zechariah 6:15 And they that are far off shall come and build in the temple of the LORD, and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you. And this shall come to pass, if ye will diligently obey the voice of the LORD your God.

Zechariah 8:9 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which were in the day that the foundation of the house of the LORD of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

First of all I would think this is meaning this same temple in all 3 passages. In Zechariah 6:12 we see that it is the man whose name is The BRANCH, that he shall build the temple of the LORD. Who is the man named the BRANCH? The bigger majority of us would conclude that it's meaning the Messiah, meaning Jesus. If so, Jesus never built the 2nd temple nor had anything to do with the building of it. It was already erected when He was born, not to mention, it was later destroyed. That should tell us then that the temple in this context can't be meaning the 2nd temple, which then causes other problems if Ezekiel's temple and the 2nd temple are one and tthe same, since like I showed, the BRANCH wouldn't be building the 2nd temple unto the LORD.

[Buddy]

The verses presented above all refer to a future temple that the Lord will build .... His millennial temple

There are those who have a problem with this intent primarily because their particular interpretation of prophecy is taught with no future literal restoration of an earthly kingdom of the Israelite nation .... they believe the Lord is finished with His national people
and that their specific church organization is now "Israel" [there are some innate dangers that are carried with this idea which I will not go into on this thread]

As a result they must find a way to either eliminate, or relegate, the literal to past fulfillment

The other problem is the idea of the continuance of sacrificial worship during a future millennial kingdom as described within the context of Ezekiel 40-48

Why would the Lord institute the same during His millennial reign upon the earth from Jerusalem?

The answer is one first knowing that He is going to do it .... and that it will be done according to His own Word

The human populations of this kingdom will be mortals and will need salvation just as we do today .... but they will have free will to choose

These people will be far away from the knowledge of the things that He has done for human salvation, and so they will need to be taught and reminded of how serious the matter of the need for salvation is and why they need to embrace it just as the believer does today

.... all of this will be displayed in the open for them to understand so that there is no question about what they must do to gain eternal life

So the sacrificial worship conducted in the millennial temple will be symbolic display and not a requirement to carry out rely upon the practice for their salvation .... they will have to accept and follow the Lord just as all mortal humans must do in order to gain eternal life

Not all of them will do this and when the 1000 years comes to a closing, Satan will be released to cause another final human rebellion against Him .... all who join the rebellion will end up here [Revelation 20:11-15]

[divaD]

So the sacrificial worship conducted in the millennial temple will be symbolic display and not a requirement to carry out rely upon the practice for their salvation

Could you expand on this a bit more? I'm not exactly certain what you are meaning here. Mainly about the symbolic display part.