Getting to the bottom of Ez 40-48? Is it possible?

[billy-brown 2]

(this is the continuation of the last post . . .)

Was Ezekiel's temple already built? That is the question, and the Bible does not give us enough information to tell us in detail what the temple looked like that the Messiah walked into, therefore only flawed history is available.

That is the question; and I can only say that the only two earthly brick-and-mortar temples that have been on the earth have been built and destroyed already--and by prophetic decree.

However, Ezekiel's temple was a VISION. That's all; we need not read into it anything else other that that:

Eze. 40
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.

And also, might you be able to answer these questions (from a previous post)?

rejoice44,

Are you saying that this passage is not true?

II Chron. 36
15The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;
16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
17Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
18All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
19Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

I know about the Babylonian Talmud somewhat, but does it trump the writings of scripture? Why was Judah in Babylonian captivity? Can you answer that . . . ?

=)

[rejoice44]

However, Ezekiel's temple was a VISION. That's all; we need not read into it anything else other that that:

What do you mean by this? That it was fulfilled, or that it wasn't fulfilled?

And also, might you be able to answer these questions (from a previous post)?

No, the Talmud does not trump the Bible.

Why was Judah in captivity? Because of sin.

Lamentations 1:5 Her adversaries are the chief, her enemies prosper; for the LORD hath afflicted her for the multitude of her transgressions: her children are gone into captivity before the enemy.

Lamentations 1:8-10 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward. Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself. The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation.

Lamentations 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.

[billy-brown 2]

What do you mean by this? That it was fulfilled, or that it wasn't fulfilled?

Well, might we look at these verses again--especially the text in bold?

Ezekiel 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

Eze. 43
10“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.
12“This is the law of the house: its entire area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Yep. (Did you see it?)

These verses indicate specifically that Ezekiel was asked to "declare to the house of Israel all that you see" so that "they may observe its entire design and all its statues and do them" and so on. In other words, Ezekiel was given a VISION so as to provide simple instructions for Israel to do the statues of God; that would be the Law of Moses--and they were in captivity for not doing the Law of Moses to begin with, yes?

II Chron. 36
15The LORD, the God of their fathers, sent word to them again and again by His messengers, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place;
16but they continually mocked the messengers of God, despised His words and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, until there was no remedy.
17Therefore He brought up against them the king of the Chaldeans who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, old man or infirm; He gave them all into his hand.
18All the articles of the house of God, great and small, and the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his officers, he brought them all to Babylon.
19Then they burned the house of God and broke down the wall of Jerusalem, and burned all its fortified buildings with fire and destroyed all its valuable articles.
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

And so, one has to wonder how much "ashamed" feeling the people of Israel had while they were in captivity; after all, do you see that word "If" in the scripture below . . . ?

Eze. 43
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. . . .

This brings us to the following from you:

No, the Talmud does not trump the Bible.

Why was Judah in captivity? Because of sin.

Lamentations 1:5 Her adversaries are the chief, her enemies prosper; for the LORD hath afflicted her for the multitude of her transgressions: her children are gone into captivity before the enemy.

Lamentations 1:8-10 Jerusalem hath grievously sinned; therefore she is removed: all that honoured her despise her, because they have seen her nakedness: yea, she sigheth, and turneth backward. Her filthiness is in her skirts; she remembereth not her last end; therefore she came down wonderfully: she had no comforter. O LORD, behold my affliction: for the enemy hath magnified himself. The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation.

Lamentations 4:6 For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.

Yep. You got it.

But what specific sin was it?

[rejoice44]

Well, might we look at these verses again--especially the text in bold?



Yep. (Did you see it?)

These verses indicate specifically that Ezekiel was asked to "declare to the house of Israel all that you see" so that "they may observe its entire design and all its statues and do them" and so on. In other words, Ezekiel was given a VISION so as to provide simple instructions for Israel to do the statues of God; that would be the Law of Moses--and they were in captivity for not doing the Law of Moses to begin with, yes?




And so, one has to wonder how much "ashamed" feeling the people of Israel had while they were in captivity; after all, do you see that word "If" in the scripture below . . . ?



This brings us to the following from you:



Yep. You got it.

But what specific sin was it?

Do you want the specific sin of Ahaz, or Hezekiah, or Manasseh, or Amon, or Jehoahaz, or Eliakim (Jehoiakim)?

[billy-brown 2]

Do you want the specific sin of Ahaz, or Hezekiah, or Manasseh, or Amon, or Jehoahaz, or Eliakim (Jehoiakim)?

I am only mentioning this (in bold):

Lev. 25
1The LORD then spoke to Moses at Mount Sinai, saying,
2“Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘When you come into the land which I shall give you, then the land shall have a sabbath to the LORD.
3‘Six years you shall sow your field, and six years you shall prune your vineyard and gather in its crop,
4but during the seventh year the land shall have a sabbath rest, a sabbath to the LORD; you shall not sow your field nor prune your vineyard.
5‘Your harvest’s aftergrowth you shall not reap, and your grapes of untrimmed vines you shall not gather; the land shall have a sabbatical year.

and this:

II Chron. 36
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

Yep. And it was the sin of neglect of the sabbath rest for the land that caused this (in bold below):

Eze. 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

And apparently, Daniel concurred:

Dan. 9
1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans—
2in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

3So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.
4I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed and said, “Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and lovingkindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments,
5we have sinned, committed iniquity, acted wickedly and rebelled, even turning aside from Your commandments and ordinances.

6“Moreover, we have not listened to Your servants the prophets, who spoke in Your name to our kings, our princes, our fathers and all the people of the land.

7“Righteousness belongs to You, O Lord, but to us open shame, as it is this day—to the men of Judah, the inhabitants of Jerusalem and all Israel, those who are nearby and those who are far away in all the countries to which You have driven them, because of their unfaithful deeds which they have committed against You.
8“Open shame belongs to us, O Lord, to our kings, our princes and our fathers, because we have sinned against You.

Now, I'm sure that other sins were involved, but the breaking of sabbath covenant for 70 contiguous sabbath years was the "biggie" indeed. And therefore, Gabriel uttered these words:

Dan. 9
24a Seventy years . . .

Yes?

[rejoice44]

Yep. And it was the sin of neglect of the sabbath rest for the land that caused this (in bold below): And apparently, Daniel concurred:

Now, I'm sure that other sins were involved, but the breaking of sabbath covenant for 70 contiguous sabbath years was the "biggie" indeed. And therefore, Gabriel uttered these words:


Yes?

That was a biggie, but it was far more than that. It was a continual disregard for the "Word of God", who was later manifested in the flesh.

Deuteronomy 17:16-19 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites: And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:


2Chronicles 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.


1Kings 11:1-3 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, [and] Hittites; Of the nations [concerning] which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: [for] surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

1Kings 10:14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,


1Kings 11:9-10 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.


2 Kings 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.


1Kings 9:9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.


1Kings 9:6-7 [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

It is recorded of almost every King of Israel, that he did evil before the Lord. Only Josiah was not criticized by God, and that doesn't mean he was perfect.

[billy-brown 2]

That was a biggie, but it was far more than that. It was a continual disregard for the "Word of God", who was later manifested in the flesh.

Deuteronomy 17:16-19 But he shall not multiply horses to himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt, to the end that he should multiply horses: forasmuch as the LORD hath said unto you, Ye shall henceforth return no more that way. Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away: neither shall he greatly multiply to himself silver and gold. And it shall be, when he sitteth upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this law in a book out of [that which is] before the priests the Levites: And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn to fear the LORD his God, to keep all the words of this law and these statutes, to do them:


2Chronicles 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.


1Kings 11:1-3 But king Solomon loved many strange women, together with the daughter of Pharaoh, women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Zidonians, [and] Hittites; Of the nations [concerning] which the LORD said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you: [for] surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines: and his wives turned away his heart.

1Kings 10:14 Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents of gold,


1Kings 11:9-10 And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded.


2 Kings 22:17 Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched.


1Kings 9:9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.


1Kings 9:6-7 [But] if ye shall at all turn from following me, ye or your children, and will not keep my commandments [and] my statutes which I have set before you, but go and serve other gods, and worship them: Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:

It is recorded of almost every King of Israel, that he did evil before the Lord. Only Josiah was not criticized by God, and that doesn't mean he was perfect.

However, it was the sabbath covenant issue that put Judah in Babylon to begin with--as taught here:

II Chron. 36
20Those who had escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon; and they were servants to him and to his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia,
21to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed its sabbaths. All the days of its desolation it kept sabbath until seventy years were complete.

And Daniel is addressing this specifically in his prayer:

Dan. 9
1In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans—
2in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

3So I gave my attention to the Lord God to seek Him by prayer and supplications, with fasting, sackcloth and ashes.
4I prayed to the LORD my God and confessed and said, “Alas, O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant and lovingkindness for those who love Him and keep His commandments,
5we have sinned, committed iniquity, acted wickedly and rebelled, even turning aside from Your commandments and ordinances.

And the OP is dealing with Eze. 40-48; the notion of "sabbath covenant" is foundational to aspects of the passage . . .

[rejoice44]

However, it was the sabbath covenant issue that put Judah in Babylon to begin with--as taught here:



And Daniel is addressing this specifically in his prayer:



And the OP is dealing with Eze. 40-48; the notion of "sabbath covenant" is foundational to aspects of the passage . . .

Let me try and understand your position. Do you believe that Ezekiel's vision is a future event?

[divaD]

Here's something to consider for those who see animal sacrificing in the future.


Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is clearly in regards to the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah.

Ezekiel 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Clearly the house of Israel is in the context, and it's in regards to sin offering. With that in mind, let's go back to Jer 31.

Jeremiah 31:34 .....for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Verse 31 establishes that that's meaning with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah. Logically then, Ezekiel 45:17 cannot occur after Jeremiah 31:34, since it would be a contradiction.

Look at the contradiction, if Ezekiel 45:17 occurs after or even during when Jeremiah 31:34 is fulfilled.

Ezekiel 45:17...in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel. COMPARED TO..Jeremiah 31:34 .....for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more...meaning the house of Israel for one. So the question then that you have to ask is this. Is the reason God will remember their sins no more because of the animal sacrificing in Ezekiel 45:17? How is that logical, since that's never worked in the past. Had it tho, then why did Jesus need to come and pay the price for sins?

[divaD]

Let me try and understand your position. Do you believe that Ezekiel's vision is a future event?

I won't speak for BB2, but I'm pretty certain he doesn't see this vision as future.

[billy-brown 2]

Let me try and understand your position. Do you believe that Ezekiel's vision is a future event?

I won't speak for BB2, but I'm pretty certain he doesn't see this vision as future.

Dearest Saints,

I hope that we would all see that Ezekiel received a VISION that was to be shared with the exiles of those days on condition:

Eze. 40
1In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth of the month, in the fourteenth year after the city was taken, on that same day the hand of the LORD was upon me and He brought me there.
2In the visions of God He brought me into the land of Israel and set me on a very high mountain, and on it to the south there was a structure like a city.
3So He brought me there; and behold, there was a man whose appearance was like the appearance of bronze, with a line of flax and a measuring rod in his hand; and he was standing in the gateway.
4The man said to me, “Son of man, see with your eyes, hear with your ears, and give attention to all that I am going to show you; for you have been brought here in order to show it to you. Declare to the house of Israel all that you see.”

Eze. 43
10“As for you, son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the plan.
11“If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes, and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole design and all its statutes and do them.