Why Do Catholics Pray To Mary And Other Deceased People That They Call Saints ?

[HollyRock]

God wants us to pray to Him in Jesus' name only. He does not acknowledge prayers to the dead, it is an afront to Him and the work of the Cross. He does not require rosary beads or prayer cards either...just a simple prayer to Him in Jesus' name will do.

[Br. Barnabas]

The idea of praying to the saints is, a misunderstanding caused by a change in language usage. Prayer can be an act of devotion to God. But I can also pray forgiveness from someone I have wronged or I can make supplication to a person. This is the idea behind the "praying" to the saints. It is asking them to pray to God on our behalf as we also pray to God for our own needs. It is like asking someone in our church to join with us in prayer about some thing we are going through or would like them to pray about too. The idea is that the saints are closer to God than we are, because they are in heaven and no longer have sin that distances them from God. James 5:16 "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." The idea of asking the saints to pray on our behalf is based on the idea that they are more righteous than anyone on the earth, because they no longer sin and are in the actual presence of God.

Anyone who tells you that Christians or Roman Catholics or Orthodox Christians are praying to the saints the same as they are to God is mistaken. Those who actually practice asking the saints to pray for them do not do it in the same way as they pray to God.

[Silvermist]

Didn't Jesus say that Mary was the spiritual mother? But I think we are to pray to God directly because we are not separated from Him by sin any longer.

I had a vision of Mary just before I believed. She was leaning over to kiss me on the forehead. Another time, I had wanted to join a church but I was moving out of state soon and I saw her standing in front of the church doors. They were closed and she was blocking them. I've never understood why I would have visions of her, because I'm not Catholic and don't believe that we should put Mary before Jesus.

[HollyRock]

A vision from God will confirm His Word not go against it. Always seek God and His Word about visions and dreams before taking them to heart, and plus you said you were a young Christian then, so you may not have known the Word as well then. Also, we are still separated from God aside from Christ and His finished Work on the Cross. That's the whole point, we need Christ as the mediator...( No man cometh unto the Father but by Me ) Jesus said.

[markedward]

Didn't Jesus say that Mary was the spiritual mother?

No. On one occasion, when Jesus' mother wanted to call him away from his teaching, he pointed to all of the women (and men) around him and said 'These are my mother (and brothers)'... effectively saying that family relationships are not inherently superior to other relationships. On another occasion, a woman said to Jesus 'Blessed is the woman who breastfed you!' and Jesus said 'No, blessed are those who hear the word of God!' The only time Jesus made a point of revering Mary was specifically to the 'beloved disciple' (author of the gospel of John), saying that the disciple was to care for Mary as if she was his mother. Jesus was not teaching that Mary was everyone's 'spiritual mother'... he was making sure that his mother had someone to take care of her.

[shepherdsword]

(complete article by Mike Nadraus here: http://www.godondeathrow.com/subpage3.html)

"The first 150 years after the birth of Jesus Christ there is virtually no mention of Mary in any writings, not even the apostolic writings. Justin Martyr and Irenaeus of Lyons began, by the late second and early third centuries, to write about Mary with some unusual ideas. Irenaeus can be quoted saying, “The disobedience of the virgin Eve was atoned for by the obedience of the virgin Mary. Around this time Mary began to be given attributes and character traits that were not inline with her biblical description by any means possible. The catholic view evolved at this point.

Writings during the early Church period fueled Mary-worship with the claims of her sinlessness, power and perpetual virginity. In 431 A.D., the Council of Ephesus gave Mary the title, “mother of God.” This claim was not saying that she was just the earthly mother of Jesus Christ, who was the Son of God, while at the same time was God in the flesh, which in their eyes would make Mary the literal mother of God.
Fifth and sixth century worship of Mary can be linked directly to city of Ephesus. The Vatican calls Mary the "Mother of the Church" and credits her for making Jesus who he was. She is considered the "second Eve" in the same manner that Scripture calls Jesus the second Adam.
Another modern false view promoted is that since Mary shared her Son's suffering on the cross, some Catholic theologians see her as fulfilling the Old Testament priestly role in offering sacrifice. This gives her more power and prestige in the eyes of the ones who want to see her in that praiseworthy light.
Clearly the Church's trend has been to substitute devotion to Mary for devotion to the Lord Jesus Christ."

[Nihil Obstat]

Catholics began to petition the saints for their needs soon after their form of government required that they no longer immediately address the lord of the land, but bring to him their concerns via officials of the court. They started to understand the lordship of God and Jesus in this way, as removed by a degree, and so prayed to saints and guardian angels who had the privilege of free access to Him.

[Sojourner55]

I've often wondered how the sweet, innocent Mary--a sinner saved by grace, honored and blessed as the human vessel to bear God's Son--would feel about being prayed to, attributed with miraculous earthly appearances, and being called the "queen of heaven" and "mother of God."

[Nihil Obstat]

I've wondered about that as well. Ironically, she's probably praying for those who do.

[episkopos]

Mary as we now "know" her (or as her likeness is represented) became the "Mother of God" during the renaissance period. She is being used as a counter-balance to the cult of other "ideal" women...notably the pagan godesses. So "she" as an elevated person would seem to displace the need for men to exalt other ideals in women.

Sadly, these superstitions have replaced true biblical intercession. Mary is often seen as a mediator to the Mediator. If you want Jesus to do something for you...why not ask His mother? (or so the reasoning goes) I have also heard that Jesus gets too busy (with evangelicals?) so that the many Catholics don't have a direct access to Jesus Christ. So they go through Mary and other saints.

Mary has largely replaced the Holy Spirit for the masses in the RC traditions.

[HollyRock]

I've often wondered how the sweet, innocent Mary--a sinner saved by grace, honored and blessed as the human vessel to bear God's Son--would feel about being prayed to, attributed with miraculous earthly appearances, and being called the "queen of heaven" and "mother of God."

I think she would say the same thing that she said on earth..." Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you to do "

[one_lost_coin]

Mary as we now "know" her (or as her likeness is represented)became the "Mother of God" during the renaissance period. She is being used as a counter-balance to the cult of other "ideal" women...notably the pagan godesses. So "she" as an elevated person would seem to displace the need for men to exalt other ideals in women.

Actually she became the Mother of God at the moment she conceived by the Holy Spirit.

The rest of what you wrote is just bizarre.

The facts involve refuting the Nestorian heresy which regarded Christ as a human person joined to the divine person of God's Son. Opposing this heresy, St. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council, at Ephesus in 431ad (way before the renaissance), confessed "that the Word, uniting to himself in his person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man." Christ's humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it and made it his own, from his conception. For this reason the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: "Mother of God, not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from the holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself according to the hypostasis, was born from her, the Word is said to be born according to the flesh."

Sadly, these superstitions have replaced true biblical intercession. Mary is often seen as a mediator to the Mediator. If you want Jesus to do something for you...why not ask His mother? (or so the reasoning goes) I have also heard that Jesus gets too busy (with evangelicals?) so that the many Catholics don't have a direct access to Jesus Christ. So they go through Mary and other saints.

I take it evangelicals never ask their friends to pray for them when they are in need? You need not bother answering as there is a special section on this forum asking for the prayers of others.

As already provided by br. barnabas above James 5:16 "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." The idea of asking the saints to pray on our behalf is based on the idea that they are more righteous than anyone on the earth, because they no longer sin and are in the actual presence of God.

I will contribute Rev 5:8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 8:3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

Mary has largely replaced the Holy Spirit for the masses in the RC traditions.

This is so shamefully untrue that you should never repeat it again as you are in fact bearing false witness against your neighbor. You appear to be doing so out of ignorance but the harm done is the same.

See for yourself here is a link to the free .pdf version of our prayer books used during the Mass http://www.eparchy.org/ourladyofleba...ory&Itemid=179 I offer this link as I am Maronite Catholic one of the 22 Churches that make up the Catholic Church in complete unity with the Church at Rome. You should have no trouble finding the Roman Missal somewhere online yourself if you prefer to read it and you should read it so that you may know better than to ever say such a thing again.

[Sojourner55]

Actually she became the Mother of God at the moment she conceived by the Holy Spirit.

The facts involve refuting the Nestorian heresy which regarded Christ as a human person joined to the divine person of God's Son. Opposing this heresy, St. Cyril of Alexandria and the third ecumenical council, at Ephesus in 431ad (way before the renaissance), confessed "that the Word, uniting to himself in his person the flesh animated by a rational soul, became man." Christ's humanity has no other subject than the divine person of the Son of God, who assumed it and made it his own, from his conception. For this reason the Council of Ephesus proclaimed in 431 that Mary truly became the Mother of God by the human conception of the Son of God in her womb: "Mother of God, not that the nature of the Word or his divinity received the beginning of its existence from the holy Virgin, but that, since the holy body, animated by a rational soul, which the Word of God united to himself according to the hypostasis, was born from her, the Word is said to be born according to the flesh."

Mary became the mother of the humanity in which God incarnated Himself--not of God Himself. A flesh and blood woman being the actual mother of God Almighty is a man made heresy, devoid of Biblical support--and will remain so, no matter how many church fathers you quote in your attempts to validate it. The fact is, these fallible men were no more equipped to authoritatively define the infinite nature of God than you or I.

I take it evangelicals never ask their friends to pray for them when they are in need? You need not bother answering as there is a special section on this forum asking for the prayers of others.

As already provided by br. barnabas above James 5:16 "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective." The idea of asking the saints to pray on our behalf is based on the idea that they are more righteous than anyone on the earth, because they no longer sin and are in the actual presence of God.

I will contribute Rev 5:8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Rev 8:3 Another angel with a golden censer came and stood at the altar; he was given a great quantity of incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar that is before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

You might consider that the saints in the passages you cite above are located upon the earth, not in heaven. The fire from the altar that is cast upon the earth represents judgment on behalf of the suffering saints upon earth--whose prayers are depicted ascending up to God. Moreover, despite the assertions of Catholic dogma that sainthood is a title bestowed by the Pope, the New Testament teaches very clearly that God Himself deems every blood-washed believer to be a saint.

Mary has essentially been elevated to the status of a goddess--not unlike the original "queen of heaven," she seems to be fashioned after. The Madonna and Child statue that supposedly depicts Mary holding the infant Jesus, is identical to that which portrayed the pagan queen of heaven and her son Baal, thousands of years before Jesus was born.

According to the same fallible authority cited by you, Mary was born without sin like Jesus, suffered at the cross like Jesus, ascended bodily into heaven like Jesus, and is both revered and prayed to, like Jesus. Here are a few Catholic beliefs about Mary:

Mary has the authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven. As a reward for her great humility, God gave her the power and mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride. Such is the will of the almighty God who exalts the humble, that the powers of heaven, earth and hell, willingly or unwillingly, must obey the commands of the humble Virgin Mary. For God has made her queen of heaven and earth, leader of his armies, keeper of his treasure, dispenser of his graces, mediatrix on behalf of men, destroyer of his enemies, and faithful associate in his great works and triumphs."
-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort, True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #28

“No matter how sinful one may have been, if he has devotion to Mary, it is impossible that he be lost."
-Saint Hilary of Poitiers - Bishop, Father, and Doctor of the Church; taken from: Mary, Our Sweet Mother by Father Stefano M. Manelli, F.F.I., S.T.D.

“If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead. If anyone should assert that He passed through the Virgin as through a channel, and was not at once divinely and humanly formed in her (divinely, because without the intervention of a man; humanly, because in accordance with the laws of gestation), he is in like manner godless.”
-Saint Gregory Nazianzen - Archbishop of Constantinople, Father, and Doctor of the Church; To Cledonius the Priest Against Apollinarius, Epistle 101 (A.D. 382).

"Prayer is powerful beyond limits when we turn to the Immaculata who is queen even of God's heart."
-Saint Maximilian Kolbe

“As mariners are guided into port by the shining of a star, so Christians are guided to heaven by Mary"
-Saint Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church


“Let us then cast ourselves at the feet of this good Mother, and embracing them let us not depart until she blesses us, and accepts us for her children.”
-Saint Bernard of Clairvaux, Father and Doctor of the Church

Here are two quotes attributed to Mary herself, during two of her supposed earthly appearances:

"I am not only the Queen of Heaven, but also the Mother of Mercy."
-Our Lady to Saint Faustina

"Whosoever shall die wearing my Scapular shall not suffer the flames of Hell."
-Our Lady of Mount Carmel

There are many, many more like these, which serve to prove that Catholics go far beyond merely "honoring" Mary. For all intents and purposes--as clearly demonstrated by quotes such as these, Mary has been elevated by those who pray to her, to the status of a virtual co-Savior. Such doctrine is heresy of the first magnitude, and cannot be glossed over.

[one_lost_coin]

Mary became the mother of the humanity in which God incarnated Himself--not of God HimselfA flesh and blood woman being the actual mother of God Almighty is a man made heresy, devoid of Biblical support--and will remain so, no matter how many church fathers you quote in your attempts to validate it.

You really should have taken the time to read the council of ephesus http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum03.htm you could have spared yourself the egg on your face.

For example you would have read "So he who existed and was begotten of the Father before all ages is also said to have been begotten according to the flesh of a woman, without the divine nature either beginning to exist in the holy virgin, or needing of itself a second begetting after that from his Father. (For it is absurd and stupid to speak of the one who existed before every age and is coeternal with the Father, needing a second beginning so as to exist.)"

"Therefore, because the holy virgin bore in the flesh God who was united hypostatically with the flesh, for that reason we call her mother of God, not as though the nature of the Word had the beginning of its existence from the flesh (for "the Word was in the beginning and the Word was God and the Word was with God", and he made the ages and is coeternal with the Father and craftsman of all things), but because, as we have said, he united to himself hypostatically the human and underwent a birth according to the flesh from her womb."

explained differently "Although Mary is the Mother of God, she is not his mother in the sense that she is older than God or the source of her Son’s divinity, for she is neither. Rather, we say that she is the Mother of God in the sense that she carried in her womb a divine person—Jesus Christ, God "in the flesh" (2 John 7, cf. John 1:14)—and in the sense that she contributed the genetic matter to the human form God took in Jesus Christ."

So it is plain to see that the title Theotokos "Mother of God" better translated "God bearer" does not mean that the divinity had its origin in her but that she gave birth to the entire person of God. Think of the incarnation as God coming through a gate. Mary would be the gate. The divine person, the second person of the Trinity took on flesh, that is incarnated.

explained even simpler. question-Is Jesus God? answer yes question-Is Mary His mother? answer yes. result Mary is the Mother of God. and it is in fact of God Himself or you run into a very very serious problem as Mary is not just carrying the human nature of her child in her womb but of the very person of God.

You might consider that the saints in the passages you cite above are located upon the earth, not in heaven. The fire from the altar that is cast upon the earth represents judgment on behalf of the suffering saints upon earth--whose prayers are depicted ascending up to God.

That would not be worth considering being as it is clearly testified in the book itself that the Apostle John is peering into heaven itself and describing what he saw. I would recommend backing up to the beginning of chapter 4 where the vision in chapter 5 and 8 begins. He says "After this I had a vision of an open door to heaven, and I heard the trumpetlike voice that had spoken to me before, saying, "Come up here and I will show you what must happen afterwards. At once I was caught up in spirit. A throne was there in heaven, and on the throne sat..." then he goes on to explicitly describe creatures, elders and angels offering our prayers to God.

Mary has essentially been elevated to the status of a goddess--not unlike the original "queen of heaven," she seems to be fashioned after. The Madonna and Child statue that supposedly depicts Mary holding the infant Jesus, is identical to that which portrayed the pagan queen of heaven and her son Baal, thousands of years before Jesus was born.

Mary is not now nor ever thought of as a goddess.

That Mary is depicted in Catholic art holding the infant Jesus in her arms is because she held the infant Jesus in her arms.

That Mary is called the Queen of Heaven is for nothing any more complicated than the fact Jesus is King of heaven therefore Mary as was the case for the people of Israel throughout the OT being His mother is the Queen. For as you will see it was the Mother who became Queen not the Kings wife. This has always been understood as archetypal.

According to the same fallible authority cited by you

That authority would be sacred scripture.

Mary was born without sin like Jesus,

actually she was saved by the stain of sin by her savior Jesus Christ.

suffered at the cross like Jesus,

yes watching her son tortured and murdered did cause her much suffering.

ascended bodily into heaven like Jesus,

no it has never been taught nor is it now that she ascended into heaven.

and is both revered and prayed to, like Jesus.

this also is incorrect.

Here are a few Catholic beliefs about Mary:...

pick one and I will explain it. it will be a help to you to understand it better as you have so poorly witnessed about your catholic neighbors so far. out of ignorance and not malice I'm sure. Ignorance is much easier to overcome than malice but with God's grace both are possible to overcome.

[amazzin]

I don't need to pray to a dead saint to intercede or intervene on my behalf when I have a living God who hears my prayer. The Bible is clear that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God interceding for us. The Holy Spirit within us is God's spirit Himself who intervenes on our behalf.

What i said above I can support with scripture but no where does it say to pray to dead saints