Why Do Catholics Pray To Mary And Other Deceased People That They Call Saints ?

[one_lost_coin]

I don't need to pray to a dead saint to intercede or intervene on my behalf when I have a living God who hears my prayer. The Bible is clear that Jesus is seated at the right hand of God interceding for us. The Holy Spirit within us is God's spirit Himself who intervenes on our behalf.

That you dont need to sure. You dont need to ask you friends to pray for you either but you do. You know what? Jesus doesnt mind. Where God is there is community. Always. Think about it...a perfect community of love is what God is restoring us to. The Saints are our friends in heaven and they care about us and we love and care about them. I have never met anyone who cared about another that did not ask Jesus to help another. Have you?

This community exists because of God. In, with and through Him. The ability to love God and ones neighbor is only possible because of Him.

Ephesians 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the cornerstone. In him the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built together spiritually into a dwelling-place for God.

What i said above I can support with scripture but no where does it say to pray to dead saints

I can support it with scripture also plus dead saint is an oxymoron in the sense that the saints in heaven are more fully alive than we are. We speak of death in two ways the first is physical death-the separation of body from soul and the second spiritual death-the separation of body and soul from God.

The saints are only dead in the first sense and not in the second rather they are alive in Christ right now.

Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

It is more properly said that we ask the saints to pray for us (when a catholic says he prays to the saints this is the way in which he means it) whether you ask them or not they are praying for you in heaven.

God has made us an incredible community to be part of and I must say I am enjoying it immensely, all my friends including the saints in heaven for whom I am so grateful to God for. I am having the time of my life. What He has made is exciting and so full of life and relationship would be a shame to reduce it to something less than it is.

[amazzin]

As Christians we do not nor do we need to pray to dead people

[John 8:32]

Why pray to someone who is dead and in their grave awaiting a resurrection?

[Sojourner55]

You really should have taken the time to read the council of ephesus http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Councils/ecum03.htm you could have spared yourself the egg on your face.

You need to understand that papal bulls and encyclicals carry no weight with Protestants. So you can save yourself the trouble of repeatedly citing the opinions of fallible men in an attempt to make a case for unscriptural doctrine. Any bona fide tenet of the Christian faith can be corroborated with Scripture. Any doctrine that cannot, has for support, only the say-so of men whose agenda is served by its acceptance.

And I assure you I have no egg on my face, sir. I'm not the one promoting false doctrine. When all the facts now under discussion are resolved, if anyone is left looking foolish, it will be you. Now, regarding your heretical teaching that Mary is the mother of God:

Mary is the mother of Jesus--His body and human nature developed inside her. His deity did not. Yes, she carried in her womb the full deity inherent inside Jesus as the Logos; but she did not give birth to it. The humanity of Jesus formed in Mary's womb just as the physical body of any human being forms in his or her mother's womb. But Mary being the vessel chosen to bear the vessel for the incarnation of God, does not translate into Mary being the mother of God. And the opinions of fallible men who say that she is, does not make it true. Any doctrine originating after the time of the Apostles is ordained by man, not God.

The truth is, calling Mary the mother of God is simply a ploy by your religion to justify the outlandish adoration bestowed upon her--a mere woman who needed a Savior just like you or I. Mary, as a child of God, would no doubt be as mortified at being revered as the mother of God and queen of heaven as Peter would be at being the supposed prototype for your succession of Papal monarchs.

That would not be worth considering being as it is clearly testified in the book itself that the Apostle John is peering into heaven itself and describing what he saw. I would recommend backing up to the beginning of chapter 4 where the vision in chapter 5 and 8 begins. He says "After this I had a vision of an open door to heaven, and I heard the trumpetlike voice that had spoken to me before, saying, "Come up here and I will show you what must happen afterwards. At once I was caught up in spirit. A throne was there in heaven, and on the throne sat..." then he goes on to explicitly describe creatures, elders and angels offering our prayers to God.

There is no support anywhere in Scripture for the validity of either living saints praying to departed saints in heaven, or for departed saints praying for any person on earth. In the passage you cite in Rev 8, one angel is seen offering up incense--mingled with the prayers of the saints--upon the golden altar in heaven. I suggest you read the passage in the proper context before you make assertions about intercessory prayers made by saints in heaven:

1When he opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.

2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and to them were given seven trumpets.

3Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. (Rev 8:1-5)

Now consider this passage in the context of this one:

When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed. (Rev 6:9-11)

So then, at the opening of the fifth seal, we see the souls of martyred believers under the altar in heaven, asking God how long before He avenges them, and casts judgment upon those on the earth who had slain them. They are told to rest under the altar until the martyrdom of their fellow servants who were so predestined, was fulfilled.

The events in chapter 8 occur at the opening of the seventh seal. There we see the question asked by the martyred souls in Rev 6, being answered: The angel takes fire from the altar and casts it upon the earth--using the same censer that had been used for offering the incense and prayers. This clearly represents the judgment of God being executed on behalf of His martyrs--for we see the seven trumpet judgments begin immediately after the fire is cast upon the earth.

Where--except in your own biased and convoluted thinking--do you see the prayers in question originating from saints in heaven at that point in time? Why would saints in heaven even be praying to God in the first place? They're resting, right? Do you honestly believe that we need saints in heaven praying for us, when we are plainly told that Jesus is our sole intercessor and High Priest before God? We are told that we can go boldly before the throne of grace--we have no need for third party go-betweens. Praying for one another is one thing, but saints in heaven praying is altogether different. The RCC insists on this pointless intercession by its priesthood, by Mary, and even by departed saints. That's so wrong: Jesus is the only mediator between us and God. That is Scriptural.

Mary is not now nor ever thought of as a goddess.

Of course not. She just happens to be the sinless mother of God, who ascended bodily into heaven like Jesus, where she sits enthroned as the queen of heaven, being adored and prayed to. Nope, nothing goddess-like about that.

That Mary is depicted in Catholic art holding the infant Jesus in her arms is because she held the infant Jesus in her arms.

Of course Mary held Jesus as an infant. But how do you explain such a depiction coming so long after Jesus had ascended to heaven as the Savior of all--including Mary? Why make Him an infant again in the eyes of the church? What purpose could possibly be served by this--other than shifting the focus from Jesus to Mary? In that regard, I've noticed that in most of the representations of Jesus within the RCC, He is depicted as either dead (or dying) on the cross--or as a helpless infant in Mary's arms. Why is that?

That Mary is called the Queen of Heaven is for nothing any more complicated than the fact Jesus is King of heaven therefore Mary as was the case for the people of Israel throughout the OT being His mother is the Queen. For as you will see it was the Mother who became Queen not the Kings wife. This has always been understood as archetypal.

Sorry, but this is utter nonsense. Jesus being the King of kings in no way makes a case for Mary being the queen of heaven. Jesus is God, Mary is a sinner saved by grace. Blessed among women, certainly. But only a woman. Jesus as an adult didn't even call Mary "mother." He called her "woman." Does that sound like Jesus was giving approval to the adoration of Mary? As mentioned by another poster, Jesus twice declined to publicly honor Mary, to when He had a perfect opportunity to do so.

No it has never been taught nor is it now that she ascended into heaven. this also is incorrect.

"The Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."
-Pope Pius XII, Nov. 1, 1950

Please explain the difference between being "assumed," body and soul into heavenly glory, and ascending bodily into heaven. Also, why did it take 1900 years for a Pope to make that a doctrine? Obviously that doctrine did not exist in the early Church.

pick one and I will explain it. it will be a help to you to understand it better as you have so poorly witnessed about your catholic neighbors so far. out of ignorance and not malice I'm sure. Ignorance is much easier to overcome than malice but with God's grace both are possible to overcome.

No, no malice on my part, whatsoever. And any ignorance rests upon those who blindly follow the doctrines of men instead of those of the Bible. I can fully substantiate with Scripture, every single doctrine I hold. Can you?

BTW, conspicuous by its absence, is any response from you concerning the quotes about Mary that I posted. If you believe all the things espoused in those outrageous assertions, I truly feel sorry for you. But I would like to see you step up, and either admit you agree with those things, or disagree with them.

[one_lost_coin]

Why pray to someone who is dead and in their grave awaiting a resurrection?

Really? in their graves? Yet in Sacred Scripture we find at the Transfiguration of our Lord Moses and Elijah speaking to Him before His death and resurrection. Elijah was taken up in a chariot without dying but Moses died and yet there he is speaking with Jesus.

Sojourner55 quotes above the account of the martyred believers who souls are in heaven.

Christian teaching is that at our physical death that is when our soul is separated from our bodies we go to our assigned places awaiting the time when our souls will be united with our glorified bodies aka resurrection.

You see death cannot separate us from the love of God. We do not wait in our graves we wait in heaven.

[one_lost_coin]

"The Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory."
-Pope Pius XII, Nov. 1, 1950

Please explain the difference between being "assumed," body and soul into heavenly glory, and ascending bodily into heaven. Also, why did it take 1900 years for a Pope to make that a doctrine? Obviously that doctrine did not exist in the early Church.

Gladly. The biggest difference is that Jesus ascended that is raised himself up. The Assumption of Mary was carried out by Jesus. Jesus lifted Mary up. Jesus was her personal Saviour. Much like Elijah who was assumed into heaven by the power of God. We would not say Elijah ascended we would say Jesus ascended.

Every Church that can physically trace there bishops back by the laying on of hands 2,000 years have celebrated the feast of the assumption of Mary also known as the feast of the dormition of Mary since the 400's or close there abouts and the feast comes after the doctrine so doctrinally its earlier than even that. It is a very ancient doctrine, long established teaching of the magisterium (bishops united with the chair of Peter).

You are confusing dogmatically defined and doctrine. In general, doctrine is all Church teaching in matters of faith and morals. Dogma is more narrowly defined as that part of doctrine which has been divinely revealed and which the Church has formally defined and declared to be believed as revealed.

The Pope did not make doctrine he solemnly defined it that is clarified it.

No, no malice on my part, whatsoever. And any ignorance rests upon those who blindly follow the doctrines of men instead of those of the Bible. I can fully substantiate with Scripture, every single doctrine I hold. Can you?

BTW, conspicuous by its absence, is any response from you concerning the quotes about Mary that I posted. If you believe all the things espoused in those outrageous assertions, I truly feel sorry for you. But I would like to see you step up, and either admit you agree with those things, or disagree with them.

Glad to hear it is not from malice.

Not so conspicuous tho, simply and I think you will admit the post are getting long. Which is one reason why I asked you to pick any one you wish and I would reply to it. Another reason would be answers are more common sensical than conspiratorial and answering one may answer all of them for you saving me a lot of time.

So feel free to pick one and we can start there.

[one_lost_coin]

You need to understand that papal bulls and encyclicals carry no weight with Protestants. So you can save yourself the trouble of repeatedly citing the opinions of fallible men in an attempt to make a case for unscriptural doctrine. Any bona fide tenet of the Christian faith can be corroborated with Scripture. Any doctrine that cannot, has for support, only the say-so of men whose agenda is served by its acceptance.

Actually the outcome of this Ecumenical Church Council is accepted by every protestant denomination I know except some pentecostals who deny that God is a Trinity as well. Martin Luther certainly accepted it Im told he had a bible and knew something about it.

Martin Luther (1483-1546), On the Divine Motherhood of Mary, wrote:

In this work whereby she was made the Mother of God, so many and such great good things were given her that no one can grasp them. ... Not only was Mary the mother of him who is born [in Bethlehem], but of him who, before the world, was eternally born of the Father, from a Mother in time and at the same time man and God.

If you would stop railing against the wind long enough you would find they defined Mother of God in the same way you seem to be. Tho they are doing so with far greater depth of understanding of Scripture and God. This is why you still have egg on your face you are making allies your foes and you don't have enough sense to realize it.

I suggested you read it only to recognize that the very thing you were condemning was also condemned in this council and is not what is meant by Mother of God. All the reformers I have ever heard of recognized this title of Mary. The title means certain things but not others. You can stop accusing everyone of man made teaching the Church was alive and well before you were born and it will be just fine when you are gone.

Consider it a lesson in humility. Don't be too hard on yourself we have all been there and I certainly can't cast a stone.

Mary is the mother of Jesus

It is an inescapable fact that Jesus is God. One Divine Person, the second person of the Trinity, with two natures one divine and one human hypo statically... Bottom line Mary is the Mother of Jesus. Jesus is God therefore Mary is the mother of God.

[Sojourner55]

Alright coin, we'll take one quote at a time. Let's start with the first one:

"Mary has the authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven. As a reward for her great humility, God gave her the power and mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride. Such is the will of the almighty God who exalts the humble, that the powers of heaven, earth and hell, willingly or unwillingly, must obey the commands of the humble Virgin Mary. For God has made her queen of heaven and earth, leader of his armies, keeper of his treasure, dispenser of his graces, mediatrix on behalf of men, destroyer of his enemies, and faithful associate in his great works and triumphs."

-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort, True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #28

Do you believe that:
1. Mary has authority over the angels and blessed in heaven?
2. that God gave her the power and mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels?
3. that God has ordained that the powers of heaven, earth and hell, willingly or unwillingly, must obey the commands of the Virgin Mary?
4. that God has made her queen of heaven and earth, and leader of his armies?
5. that God has appointed her "keeper of his treasure," dispenser of his graces, "mediatrix on behalf of men," and "destroyer of his enemies?"

The title "mediatrix" is particularly interesting. That would be the feminine form of "mediator," and that office being held by Mary would contradict Scripture that tells us Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man:

For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. 6He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time. (1 Tim 2:5-6)

[one_lost_coin]

Alright coin, we'll take one quote at a time. Let's start with the first one:

"Mary has the authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven. As a reward for her great humility, God gave her the power and mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride. Such is the will of the almighty God who exalts the humble, that the powers of heaven, earth and hell, willingly or unwillingly, must obey the commands of the humble Virgin Mary. For God has made her queen of heaven and earth, leader of his armies, keeper of his treasure, dispenser of his graces, mediatrix on behalf of men, destroyer of his enemies, and faithful associate in his great works and triumphs."

-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort, True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #28

Great.

Things that must be kept in mind and understood (mind you I am not asking you to believe any of it just understand what we mean by things and why).

1-Everything relating to Mary is through her relationship to her Son as His mother. Everything.

examples-Jesus is the Church (we know this through Sacred Scripture He is the Churches head, the Church is His body, when He knocked Saul to the ground He said "...why do you persecute Me" (Saul was persecuting the Church)), Mary is Jesus mother therefore Mary is Mother of the Church. Jesus is the King of Heaven (In Sacred Scripture the Jews choose the mother of the king to be Queen not their, often very, many wives), Mary is Jesus mother therefore Mary is the Queen of Heaven. Jesus is the source of All Grace, therefore Mary is the mother of Grace. Jesus is the source of all Mercy, therefore Mary is the Mother of Mercy. Jesus in Sacred Scripture calls us His brothers therefore is Mary is His mother Mary is our Mother.

2-Jesus came from Heaven and entered into human history through Mary (being born from His mother). Mary in no way was forced to do this plan, she was asked and by God's Grace and of her own freewill she gave her "Fiat"(yes). He could have saved us any number of ways but in His wisdom He choose to do it this way.

Therefore and for example in relation to rule 1 (which must never be put aside) Jesus is the source of All Grace and the source of all Grace entered into our world through being born by Mary. All Grace comes into the world through Mary (this does not deny that God's grace was present in the OT but affirms that all Grace comes from God and God came into human existence born of the Virgin Mary). St. Louis De Montfort will develop this in a mystical sense in the work you quote.

Do you believe that:
1. Mary has authority over the angels and blessed in heaven?
2. that God gave her the power and mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels?
3. that God has ordained that the powers of heaven, earth and hell, willingly or unwillingly, must obey the commands of the Virgin Mary?
4. that God has made her queen of heaven and earth, and leader of his armies?
5. that God has appointed her "keeper of his treasure," dispenser of his graces, "mediatrix on behalf of men," and "destroyer of his enemies?"

I will answer this tomorrow as I am short on time before I leave and want my answers to be helpful. I am doing this at work and am working this weekend.

The title "mediatrix" is particularly interesting. That would be the feminine form of "mediator," and that office being held by Mary would contradict Scripture that tells us Jesus is the only Mediator between God and man:

For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. 6He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time. (1 Tim 2:5-6)

Catechism of the Catholic Church
969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it." "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."

Translated-it is important to note the ways in which we use mediator. When you pray to God that those who are lost may come to know Him you in Catholic usage are mediating to Jesus and through Jesus who is the only Mediator between God and man. but by His work on the cross purely and truly by His grace he hears our heartfelt concerns and pleas for those we so desperately care about. He allows us to participate in His role as mediator. Just as God is Father and creator of all and yet He has allowed me by His precious grace to sharing in His creative process by becoming the father of my beautiful son, which is truly God's son. In a very real way God manifests His power in us.

In this same way Mary is Mediatrix she is in Heaven praying for others (intercessory prayer) through Jesus mediation (not on her own apart from it) the only mediator between God and man. Her mediation is unique from ours in that she does so as Jesus mother a role no other person will have. That is all that is trying to be said by this term.

[shepherdsword]

There are babylonian mystery roots in the origin of "Mary" worship. The worship of "the queen of heaven" precedes Mary by thousands of years. We see God rebuking the Jews for worshiping this "goddess" in Jer 7:18 and Jer 44:17. She was known as "Semiramis" and they baked little cakes(with crosses on them). All worshipers of Semiramis made the sign of the "cross" when bowing and burning incense to her. She also had a child named "Tammuz" who was born on Dec 25th (sound familiar?) They also decorated little "trees" with wreaths garlands and such to celebrate the coming spring. Tammuz was killed by a wild pig just before "easter" and that holiday celebrated his resurrection. They ate a nice big ham during the feast because he was killed by a pig.

Catholicism is nothing but pagan sun god worship. Mary is a substitute for Semiramis and Jesus is a stand in for Tammuz.
Judah was destroyed for such worship.

[Sojourner55]

There are babylonian mystery roots in the origin of "Mary" worship. The worship of "the queen of heaven" precedes Mary by thousands of years. We see God rebuking the Jews for worshiping this "goddess" in Jer 7:18 and Jer 44:17. She was known as "Semiramis" and they baked little cakes(with crosses on them). All worshipers of Semiramis made the sign of the "cross" when bowing and burning incense to her. She also had a child named "Tammuz" who was born on Dec 25th (sound familiar?) They also decorated little "trees" with wreaths garlands and such to celebrate the coming spring. Tammuz was killed by a wild pig just before "easter" and that holiday celebrated his resurrection. They ate a nice big ham during the feast because he was killed by a pig.

Catholicism is nothing but pagan sun god worship. Mary is a substitute for Semiramis and Jesus is a stand in for Tammuz.
Judah was destroyed for such worship.

All true, shepherdsword. Here's something many are unaware of: When Satan found that he could not kill the Church through persecution, he changed his tactics. Whereas the saints had been historically persecuted by the emperors of Rome, the persecutions stopped under Constantine. Instead of murder and violence, Satan infiltrated the Church with the very "grievous wolves" and false teachers that the Apostles had warned about, and sabotaged it with pagan doctrine. Instead of attacking from without, he tried to poison it from within.

He mingled in elements of the ancient sun god/queen of heaven cult that began with Nimrod's Babel, and would become a central part of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Greece and Rome. For instance, the familiar statue that supposedly represents Mary holding the infant Jesus was introduced into the church environment. It is in fact, identical to the image of the two ancient deities. The simple structure of church government also was eventually transformed into a hierarchy headed by a "holy father" throne--ostensibly predicated on the humble Peter as the first bishop of Rome. Men desiring preeminence rather than humility, aspired to ever greater offices of power within this new structure--some ultimately fighting over the papal crown like pagan kings.

Eventually, church leadership--caught up in pomp and privilege, lost touch with the people, and ultimately became a crucible in the hand of Satan--to which the Inquisitions and Crusades remain as a shameful testimonial. No longer was it external powers that were the enemy of the saints, but a blood-thirsty and power-mad whore in bed with kings--pretending to be the bride of Christ. Even still, the saints persecuted by this enemy within carried the true Gospel with them into the lands in which they fled, keeping the flickering flame alive through the Dark Ages, until it re-ignited during the Reformation.

Any Catholic offended by these words should realize that it is not they who are being addressed--but rather a tainted hierarchy that stands as proof that power corrupts, even among the godly. Millions of good, sincere Catholics are in fact, the victims of generations of false teachers, and a hierarchy that seeks to hold power over the people by maintaining themselves as the only means by which Catholics can receive absolution.

It's so sad to me that Catholics remain under the thumb of a man made priesthood for absolution. Jesus alone can forgive us of sins. And He alone--without Mary--is the Mediator between God and man. He is our High Priest before God, by which we as individuals may go boldly before the throne of grace to petition our Lord on our own:
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are--yet was without sin. So let us come boldly to the throne of our gracious God. There we will receive his mercy, and we will find grace to help us when we need it most. (Hebrews 4:15-16)

Jesus does not need a structured priesthood of men, as under the Old Covenant, to serve His purposes. In fact, the body of Christ is declared to be a priesthood unto itself:
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2:9)

And whose words are these? None other than Peter Himself--the very man held to be the first Pope, and "Holy Father" presiding over the Roman Catholic priesthood. How ironic is that?

[one_lost_coin]

"Mary has the authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven. As a reward for her great humility, God gave her the power and mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride. Such is the will of the almighty God who exalts the humble, that the powers of heaven, earth and hell, willingly or unwillingly, must obey the commands of the humble Virgin Mary. For God has made her queen of heaven and earth, leader of his armies, keeper of his treasure, dispenser of his graces, mediatrix on behalf of men, destroyer of his enemies, and faithful associate in his great works and triumphs."

-Saint Louis Marie de Montfort, True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #28

Do you believe that:
1. Mary has authority over the angels and blessed in heaven?

Yes Jesus is King of Heaven and Earth. Mary is His Queen.

2. that God gave her the power and mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels?

It is not necessary to take this as literally true as a Catholic. St. Louis De Montfort does not explain his rational for this as far as I can remember when I read this book. He is a Holy Saint who has been a great benefit in my life in Christ. I have no reason to doubt he spoken well of our Lady.

3. that God has ordained that the powers of heaven, earth and hell, willingly or unwillingly, must obey the commands of the Virgin Mary?

Since she is completely transformed in God by that grace and glory which transforms all the saints in him, she does not ask or wish or do anything which is contrary to the eternal and changeless will of God...Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother's prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.

4. that God has made her queen of heaven and earth, and leader of his armies?

God is King of heaven and earth. Woman who prefigure Mary in the OT-Debbora, Jahel, Judith, Queen Esther.

5. that God has appointed her "keeper of his treasure," dispenser of his graces, "mediatrix on behalf of men," and "destroyer of his enemies?"

Jesus lived in Mary's womb. She kept our treasure safe in her womb. She gave birth to Him, the source of all Grace Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. In this way she dispensed His graces. Mediatrix already discussed. Destroyed our enemies by giving her "Yes" to God's will brought to her by way of the Angel Gabriel (who greeted her in a way no angel has ever greeted any other human being "Hail Mary") which ultimately brought us to the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Our victory is assured.

[Sojourner55]

Yes Jesus is King of Heaven and Earth. Mary is His Queen.

So you agree that Mary has power and authority over the angels of heaven? Since you base that belief on Mary being the queen of heaven, please cite some Scriptural support for that divine appointment. Nowhere in the Bible do I find any indication of either a divinely ordained exaltation of Mary to such royal splendor, or that Mary has authority over the angels. God's inspired word alone will validate this assertion. Claims by men who lived during the post-Apostolic era--when Satan was busily planting tares among God's wheat--carry little weight in such matters if they cannot be corroborated with Scripture.

It is not necessary to take this as literally true as a Catholic. St. Louis De Montfort does not explain his rational for this as far as I can remember when I read this book. He is a Holy Saint who has been a great benefit in my life in Christ. I have no reason to doubt he spoken well of our Lady.

You're avoiding the question. While I'm glad you hold De Montfort in such high esteem, do you agree with him when he says that God granted Mary the sole authority to assign to saints, the thrones left vacant by the fallen angels? Are there God-breathed words upon which this man based his words and ideas? Or are we supposed to simply take his word for it?

Since she is completely transformed in God by that grace and glory which transforms all the saints in him, she does not ask or wish or do anything which is contrary to the eternal and changeless will of God...Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother's prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.

You're being very evasive, my friend. The question was: "Has God ordained that the powers of heaven, earth and hell must--willingly or unwillingly--obey the commands of the Virgin Mary?" Does she possess such unlimited, universal power and authority or not? And please do not attribute this power to her being queen of heaven until you have offered some semblance of Biblical support for her possessing a heavenly throne.

God is King of heaven and earth. Woman who prefigure Mary in the OT-Debbora, Jahel, Judith, Queen Esther.

Again, your response does not address De Montfort's assertion that Mary is the heavenly queen who commands the angelic armies . Do you do you not agree that Mary is the commander of the heavenly host of God?

Jesus lived in Mary's womb. She kept our treasure safe in her womb. She gave birth to Him, the source of all Grace Jesus Christ was born of the Virgin Mary. In this way she dispensed His graces. Mediatrix already discussed. Destroyed our enemies by giving her "Yes" to God's will brought to her by way of the Angel Gabriel (who greeted her in a way no angel has ever greeted any other human being "Hail Mary") which ultimately brought us to the incarnation of Jesus Christ. Our victory is assured.

Each of the above points ascribe honor and glory to Mary solely by virtue of her having been the vessel that bore Jesus. Coin, believe me, no one appreciates better than I, the faith, obedience, and even courage that it took for Mary to accept and follow through with what God had ordained for her. The circumstances she was subjected to in such a small community must have been very difficult. Yet, we might well consider that Joseph also had to be a man of great faith and character to fulfill his part of God's design. (Especially so, if you adhere to the belief that Mary remained a virgin even after the birth of Jesus--and that Joseph never consummated his marriage, and wasn't permitted to be a real husband and father).

Yes, Mary is indeed blessed among woman, and all generations have and shall call her blessed. But she is blessed "among" women, not above women. Mary is a sinner saved by grace just like any other saved person. Catholics take tremendous liberties with the favor bestowed upon Mary, and see her in an estate far more highly exalted than even Jesus Himself acknowledged. He consistently addressed her as "woman" for Pete's sake.

I'd really like to move on through the other quotes, but you've consistently been evasive in directly addressing the points raised in even the first one. You have an opportunity here in this forum to validate the Catholics claims made about Mary, which are denied by most Protestants. So far however, you've done little to inspire confidence in the divine mandate and credentials for the glorious estate you so fervently advocate. Please try to answer the questions directly, and also present biblical substantiation for the beliefs espoused in your answer. God bless.

[gringo300]

I've been attempting to do research on Roman Catholicism.

The more research on Roman Catholicism I do, the more confused about Roman Catholicism I get.

I suspect that many people have never heard of the 23 Sui Juris Particular Churches of the Roman Catholic Church. This is one of the things I came across during the research.

Anyway...

Can anyone show me any references to praying to Mary in the Bible?

[John 8:32]

Really? in their graves? Yet in Sacred Scripture we find at the Transfiguration of our Lord Moses and Elijah speaking to Him before His death and resurrection. Elijah was taken up in a chariot without dying but Moses died and yet there he is speaking with Jesus.

Sojourner55 quotes above the account of the martyred believers who souls are in heaven.

Christian teaching is that at our physical death that is when our soul is separated from our bodies we go to our assigned places awaiting the time when our souls will be united with our glorified bodies aka resurrection.

You see death cannot separate us from the love of God. We do not wait in our graves we wait in heaven.

It was a vision.