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Thread: Which translation is correct?

  1. #151
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boo View Post
    Yes, because we now have the source manuscripts, now we know better. Before, people had to accept the KJV because they had little other choice. Fortunately, God fixed that problem for us.
    Source manuscripts, and you blame God for them, the main one having more than 14,000 errors.

    Take a close look at those source manuscripts. Three of those first four manuscripts were handed to us by one man. That man was Tischendorf, a man who could have a personal audience with the Pope, and was one of the few men ever to be given the privilege of seeing the Codex Vaticanus.

    These manuscripts were first given alphabet letter designations by Johann Jakob Wettstein, who held Arian and Socinian views. Wettstein did not believe in the Deity of Christ, nor did he believe that Christ performed miracles. When Wettstein gave the Uncials their alphabetical designations, the Codex Sinaiticus did not exist. He gave Codex Alexandrinus an (A), Codex Vaticanus a (B), Codex Ephraemi a (C), and so fourth. When Tischendorf found the Codex Sinaiticus, it was moved to the front, and given the designation (N), for aleph, meaning one, or first.

    It should be noted that while (B) Codex Vaticanus 1209 was in existence prior to Tischendorf, there was no true collation available, as the collation by Cardinal Mai, the Vatican Librarian, was a false copy, according to the words of Tischendorf. The Codex Vaticanus 1209 lay hidden in the Vatican Library, and Tischendorf was given access to it. It was Tischendorf’s collation that was used in the work of the UBS/NA editions of the Greek text, from which all new translations are derived.

    It should also be noted that (C) Codex Ephraemi also existed prior to Tischendorf, but according to the words of Tischendorf had not been readable for six Centuries. It was a “palimpsest”, meaning the original words had been erased, and written over with new words. According to Tischendorf, he was able to decipher the manuscript in its entirety.

    The new manuscript, Codex Sinaiticus was moved to the front of the pack, and what a story behind this manuscript. In the words of Tischendorf, he left from a meeting with the Pope, and the following year he found his pearl, the Codex Sinaiticus, in a trash basket. Not the whole Codex Sinaiticus, but 43 leaves of the Old Testament, and gives the name of those 43 leaves the Codex Frederick Augustus. Nine years later he goes back looking for more of his “precious pearl”, and finds a fragment of Genesis. Another six years go by, fifteen years total from finding the first 43 leaves, and Tischendorf is back looking for more of his pearl. Guess what, he finds the New Testament complete, not a word unreadable. So Tischendorf takes his Codex Frederick Augustus, which he had found fifteen years prior, and puts it with his new find, and names it Codex Sinaiticus. Consider that the Old Testament portion had many fragmented portions, with many whole books missing, while the New Testament was complete without a word unreadable, and yet it is considered all one manuscript, all written at the same time, as purported to be, one of the earliest manuscripts found.


    The story is not finished on the Codex Sinaiticus. Along comes the greatest forger of the nineteenth Century claiming he wrote it, Constantine Simonides, a man who had no peers in paleography. There was a dispute over whether Simonides wrote the Codex Sinaiticus, and the dispute made its way into “The Guardian Newspaper”, and also the British Library.


    Charges were made against Simonides claiming he lied. Simonides said he could prove that he wrote the Codex Sinaiticus. Simonides claimed he had left his mark on certain pages, and he named the pages. There was an arbitration panel which said they would consider that proof, if it was true. When they examined the Codex Sinaiticus, every place Simonides said he left his mark, there was an erasure, but the dispute was not settled because the claim was made that somebody had told Simonides about these erasures (or smudges) and that was how Simonides knew about them.


    Simonides then presented two lithographed letters, that he had written to his friend at the time he was writing the Codex Sinaiticus. The counter claim was that Simonides was skilled enough to do his own lithographs, and produced the letters at a later time then was the date of those letters. When the foreman of the shop, that Simonides claimed the lithography was done at, was questioned, he remembered the letters. Those letters are now supposedly in the possession of the British Library.


    Another point in favor of Simonides was that, at that time prior to the Sinaiticus there was no known copy of “The Shepherd of Hermes” written in Greek, and yet at that time, Simonides was the only man to have proclaimed observing “The Shepherd of Hermes” in Greek. When the Codex Sinaiticus was produced, it had “The Shepherd of Hermes” in Greek in it.

    One of the main advocates against Simonides was Henry Bradshaw, the British Librarian. If you remember it was Hort that sent Tischendorf to find rich material with which to altar the vile “Authorized Version”. It was also one of Hort’s best friends that defended Tischendorf’s “Codex Sinaiticus”, as not being a forgery. That friend was Henry Bradshaw, the friend of Hort, who helped Hort put down the dissidents against “Papal Aggression” at Cambridge. A small world isn’t it?

    It was after this that the UBS/NA Greek Texts came out using the manuscripts that Tischendorf produced, and designating the one that Tischendorf did not produce as inferior, because it did not follow close enough to Tischendorf’s manuscripts.. That manuscript being the Codex Alexandrinus.


    Amazingly, that small committee that produced the UBS/NA Greek Texts had as one of its editor’s one of the highest leaders in the Vatican, Cardinal Carlo Martini. Another man was Bruce Metzger, who left 40 per cent of the Bible out in his English edition, including two of the last four verses in the Bible, which say not to add or delete words. Not surprising that under Bruce Metzger’s tutelage, Bart Erhman would denounce much of the New Testament as false.


    Some may not like what is written here, but if you think anything said here is false, please present it.
    Last edited by rejoice44; Mar 29th 2012 at 04:37 PM.

  2. #152

    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    My friend there was only one bible prior to 1881. If you read the foreword to the new translations, since 1881, they will attest to the fact that the King James was the authority.

    Well, there were the Vulgate, bishops, Wycliffs,Geneva bibles back then also, and the geneva version was THE bible of the Reformers!

    Consider the opening preface of the NASB. "In the history of English Bible translations, the King James Version is the most prestigious."

    ALL agree with that sentiment, its just that the KJV was best version of its time. not best for all times!
    JUST as they used best available documents/manuscripts, modern versions do also, and we know much more of the times/culture/word meanings than was avaible to them in 1611!
    For two hundred and fifty years it was the lone English bible that was used in the Protestant churches. Ninety years after the 1881 version came out the NASB committee still recognized the King James as the most prestigious English Bible. They did it because that was a fact. The 1881 version was in disuse in 1971.

    Ah no, it actually became the NASB, it was the ASV before that!


    People use to believe they actually had the Word of God, but what do we have now. Now they believe that only the original manuscripts were the Word of God. That the Word of God has been lost, and that perhaps some day they might find it. Can't you see what has happened? The many manuscripts, with many different words, has become the tower of Babel.
    ONLY the originals though were inspired/inerrant!

    ALL Greek texts of today TR/MT/Ct etc are close enough to them can be seen as being infallible, but NOT inspired as originals only were!

    have to realise that the word of God is the same today to us , regardless if KJV/Niv/Nasb, and that other language versions such as Russian, spanish etc JUST as much of the word of God to us today if rightly translated !

  3. #153
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    The benefits of having one Bible

    1. No more debates over what the Bible says.

    2. Superior advantage in memorization.

    3. The Muslims wouldn’t be able to claim that we don’t know what the Word of God is.

    4. A uniting effect at bible studies

    5. It would help build confidence in unbelievers that we do have the Word of God, instead of confusion.

    6. God would be happy that we acknowledge that we are incapable of knowing God’s thoughts.



    The benefits of having many Bibles, which contain a great variety of words.


    1. Helps lower unemployment numbers.
    1. Debates are valuable because they stimulate learning. In this particular debate, the problems with the KJV and the superiority of the best contemporary translations are being made known to readers who hitherto were not informed.

    2. We are all free to memorize the translations that we wish to memorize. It is true that the style of the language of the KJV makes it a slightly easier for some people to memorize it than the Revised Standard Version, but the people who memorize the Revised Standard Version have the huge advantage of understanding that which they memorize!

    3. The Muslims correctly claim that Christians, for the most part, never read the Bible because to a Muslim, the Bible is the Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek text of the Bible. English-speaking Muslims do not read the Qur’an in English; they read it in Arabic. When an English-speaking person is converted to the Muslim faith, one of the first things that they are taught is the absolute importance of learning the Arabic language so that they can read the Qur’an.

    4. The use of several translations of the Bible during a Bible study stimulates thinking and discussing and results in a more accurate understanding of the Bible.

    5. Contemporary translations of the Bible make the Bible accessible to far more people than before, giving far more people the opportunity to have confidence in the Bible as being the word of God.

    6. God gave us the Bible so that we can know His thoughts to the extent that it is humanly possible.

  4. #154
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    There is far more emotion written is some of these statements than what belongs here.

    The argument by the "King James Only" crowd is based on a loyalty to a version which came from one group of people as if THAT group of people got it "right" while nobody else can. That makes absolutely NO sense, but I hear it all the time.

    Be loyal to it if you want to, but please refrain from accusing the rest of us of error. You have no true reason for the accusation.

    Much of the Christian world is being saved and learning how to live based on words that they can actually understand.

  5. #155
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    True, in that no doctrines were removed, but they did take a couple good bites at them. True, that no false doctrines were added. But what did they accomplish?

    Consider some of the points of Philpot. He said, Anglo Catholics and the Socinianising Neologians would be the revisers. That is exactly what happened.
    What did they accomplish? Not what you think. You point to 1 Timothy 3:16 and 1 John 5:7 in your mind you see something criminal. I see faithful restoration.

    Even if a doctrine is true, that doesn't give anyone the right to add to God's word to defend a true doctrine. 1 John 5:7 isn't even defended by all who prefer the KJV. Many of them deny that it belongs. And you're using Dan Wallace's website. Dan agrees with modern versions on 1 Timothy 3:16. So is Dan in on all of this too?

    Committees today are built with multi-denominational groups for checks-and-balances. Philpot was terrified of the unknown and as I stated, got no predictions correct. What verses he said would change in new versions were already well documented and predictions he did make about "priests" and "penance" which has no manuscript basis never came to fruition.

    Philpot doesn't help your case. It just makes you look desperate to use anything that hints at supporting your antagonism of modern versions.

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Philpot said, "It would unsettle the minds of thousands as to which is the Word of God." That happened. So you see Joe you can't blame me for what Hort did, I just happen to be on the side of Philpot, while you are on the side of Hort.
    This doesn't hold up. I'm more sure than when I was TRO. You have a multitude of people disagreeing with you. Our minds are not unsettled. Philpot was wrong again. Even if you repost it a thousand times, it's wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Philpot said, "There would be two bibles, and where would it end." It ended with not two bibles, but with many many bibles.
    They didn't have only one Bible in Jesus' day. The apostles quoted Hebrew occasionally and often they quoted Greek that doesn't match the Hebrew.

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Philpot said, "There would be plenty workmen, who, trying to mend the cover, would pull the pages to pieces." That happened, for there are workmen without end ripping the pages to pieces.
    Philpot was terrified of the unknown. I read a different translation every year from Genesis to Revelation. His fears were baseless.

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Joe, that is a fallacy that I am trying to undermine everyone's trust in the Bible.
    People are blessed by reading the NIV and you are trying to undermine their trust in those versions. You say one thing, your actions say another.

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    What I would like to see change is the production of all these new translations, that come out one upon another, that undermine everyone's trust in the Bible. Isn't the new NIV gender deficient?
    I'd have to say what do you mean by "gender deficient." I read the NIV 2011 cover to cover. I don't see it as "gender deficient".

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    How can anyone trust something that changes from day to day, and those that are trying to mend the cover are just waiting to find that new manuscript so they can change it again.
    The English language changes day-by-day. Should we not trust English? New translations represent three types of changes:

    1) updating English --- this is inescapable. The KJV has outlived it's primary usefulness in regard to this even though it's a great translation.
    2) different degrees of formal, function or free translation --- KJV has this stuff in their too. So what's good for the goose . . . It's a matter of degree and knowing what it is your reading. All of this is available in the introductions to each version. Readers are leaders in regard to that.
    3) manuscript updates. You see 4 primary texts. It's so much more than that. 100 papyri that they didn't have. The NA 27 and UBS4 aren't W&H and none of those are so completely different from any of the various versions of the TR.

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    No Joe, it is not me trying to unsettle the minds of believers, I believe that when something isn't broke you don't fix it.
    Then why was the KJV produced in the first place? There was the Great Bible and Geneva and others. Was it ok to fix what wasn't broke in 1611? After that, the rules changed?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Have you examined the Codex Sinaiticus, and if so, what do you think?
    I think your fears are baseless.

    You claim 14,000 errors. Let's grant it. You sound like Bart Erhman. Now what kind of errors are in those 14,000? Dan Wallace, whose website you use, says that most errors are spelling or nonsense errors in all the manuscripts.

    Norman, let's see you hand write as much of the Bible as Sinaiticus and see how many errors you make.

    Also, as previously stated, current versions are based on cross-examination by using a multiplicity of manuscripts, not just a single manuscript, and multiplicity of denominations. They aren't created from a single manuscript and the diversity of participants presents partisan bias.
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  6. #156
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    The benefits of having one Bible

    1. No more debates over what the Bible says.
    No, we're stuck with choices by errant men in the 17th century who picked between Stephanus and Beza and whichever edition of Erasmus that they went with on each particular choice. We lose inerrancy because we quit going to the manuscripts and since the KJV can't figure out if Ahaziah was 22 or 42 when he became king.

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    2. Superior advantage in memorization.
    Memorization isn't enhanced by one version. Memorization is a skill that is learned. I have entire chapters memorized in the 1984 NIV. Changes in the TNIV an/or NIV 2011 didn't make my effort a waste of time. Those changes weren't really all that different than changes in the KJV over the years.

    And on top of that, one time I quoted an entire chapter by memory for my text in a church on a Sunday morning. I didn't tell them what I was quoting. Afterwards, one of the elders (of this church that uses only TR based Bibles) told me that was the clearest that passage had ever been to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    3. The Muslims wouldn’t be able to claim that we don’t know what the Word of God is.
    You think just using the KJV would stop them? Do you think they say this because of modern versions?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    4. A uniting effect at bible studies
    What do you mean by this? Prebyterians and Baptists and AOG and Lutherans and a whole bunch of denominations formed prior to 1881. What kind of uniting do you have in mind that the KJV brings that is lost now?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    5. It would help build confidence in unbelievers that we do have the Word of God, instead of confusion.
    Do you think unbelievers think we don't have the Word of God because of multiple translations? Even if we had one, most of them would deny its the Word of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    6. God would be happy that we acknowledge that we are incapable of knowing God’s thoughts.
    What do you mean by this? In one sense, we are incapable of knowing God's thoughts. So he sent prophets and eventually Jesus. In another sense, if we were completely incapable of knowing God's thoughts, why send prophets and Jesus? So we can know God's thoughts. Whether there is one translation or multiple translations has nothing to do with any of this. Do you really think this helps your case?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    The benefits of having many Bibles, which contain a great variety of words.

    1. Helps lower unemployment numbers.
    Let me help:

    Brings greater understanding because it matches our 21st century English.

    We don't misinterpret phrases like "fetch a compass."

    We don't misinterpret the word "let".

    It brings greater understanding because where one version does a poor job (can be any version -- KJV, NIV or whatever) another version does a better one.

    Makes scholars work harder because their Bible version isn't the only choice on the market. They know people want both clarity and accuracy. The scholars know other scholars will critique their work where it gets out of line and they know if their translation isn't clear, then it won't sell. This all demands hard work from them and better Bibles and keeping up with latest manuscript discoveries and keeping up with how culture uses language.
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  7. #157
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    It was Tischendorf’s collation that was used in the work of the UBS/NA editions of the Greek text, from which all new translations are derived.
    Beginning with his third edition of 1901, Eberhard Nestle’s Greek text is based upon a comparison of three earlier Greek texts:

    1. Tischendorf’s text of 1869-1872
    2. Westcott and Hort’s text of 1881
    3. Bernhard Weiss’ text of 1894-1900

    I have in my personal library that third edition of Eberhard Nestle’s Greek text; I also have Tischendorf’s fifth edition of 1878. In 1927, Eberhard Nestle’s son Erwin issued the 13th edition. In 1952, the 21st edition was issued with Kurt Aland as an associate editor, giving us what is now known as the 21st edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek Text. The 26th edition was issued in 1979 and the 27th edition was issued in 1993. I have in my personal library the 16th and the 27th editions.

    The texts of the United Bible Societies (first edition, 1966; second edition, 1968; third edition, 1975; fourth edition, 1983) are more broadly based, being based upon a larger number of earlier Greek texts, including those of Nestle, Bover, Merk, and Vogels, and to a lesser extent upon the Greek texts of Tischendorf and von Soden. The United Bible Societies Greek text was prepared especially for translators of the Greek New Testament. I have in my personal library the third and fourth editions. The Greek text in these two editions is identical to the Greek text of the 26th edition of the Nestle-Aland text. The primary difference between Nestle-Aland texts and United Bible Societies texts is the critical apparatus, the one included in the Nestle-Aland texts being much more complete. Well over 1,000 other Greek texts of the New Testament have thus far been published.

    I also have in my personal library several hundred commentaries on the Greek text of the individual books of the Bible. The author’s of these commentaries discuss the differences between the Greek manuscripts and discuss, from their own personal point of view, the most likely original readings of the Greek text upon which they are commenting.

    Today’s best translators of the Bible, based upon their own research, translate the New Testament books from eclectic Greek texts that are similar to, but significantly different from, the published Greek texts. They translate the Old Testament books from their own eclectic texts based upon various editions of the Masoretic Text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and various editions of the Septuagint and translations of the Hebrew text in other ancient languages, including Latin and Syriac. Their aim is to present to their readers a translation of the Bible that as accurately as is humanly possible reproduces in English the words originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

    Therefore, the basis of your post and the basis of your position regarding the textual basis of contemporary translations of the Bible is nothing but incorrect assumptions based upon faulty information.

  8. #158
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    Beginning with his third edition of 1901, Eberhard Nestle’s Greek text is based upon a comparison of three earlier Greek texts:

    1. Tischendorf’s text of 1869-1872
    2. Westcott and Hort’s text of 1881
    3. Bernhard Weiss’ text of 1894-1900

    I have in my personal library that third edition of Eberhard Nestle’s Greek text; I also have Tischendorf’s fifth edition of 1878. In 1927, Eberhard Nestle’s son Erwin issued the 13th edition. In 1952, the 21st edition was issued with Kurt Aland as an associate editor, giving us what is now known as the 21st edition of the Nestle-Aland Greek Text. The 26th edition was issued in 1979 and the 27th edition was issued in 1993. I have in my personal library the 16th and the 27th editions.

    The texts of the United Bible Societies (first edition, 1966; second edition, 1968; third edition, 1975; fourth edition, 1983) are more broadly based, being based upon a larger number of earlier Greek texts, including those of Nestle, Bover, Merk, and Vogels, and to a lesser extent upon the Greek texts of Tischendorf and von Soden. The United Bible Societies Greek text was prepared especially for translators of the Greek New Testament. I have in my personal library the third and fourth editions. The Greek text in these two editions is identical to the Greek text of the 26th edition of the Nestle-Aland text. The primary difference between Nestle-Aland texts and United Bible Societies texts is the critical apparatus, the one included in the Nestle-Aland texts being much more complete. Well over 1,000 other Greek texts of the New Testament have thus far been published.

    I also have in my personal library several hundred commentaries on the Greek text of the individual books of the Bible. The author’s of these commentaries discuss the differences between the Greek manuscripts and discuss, from their own personal point of view, the most likely original readings of the Greek text upon which they are commenting.

    Today’s best translators of the Bible, based upon their own research, translate the New Testament books from eclectic Greek texts that are similar to, but significantly different from, the published Greek texts. They translate the Old Testament books from their own eclectic texts based upon various editions of the Masoretic Text, the Dead Sea Scrolls, and various editions of the Septuagint and translations of the Hebrew text in other ancient languages, including Latin and Syriac. Their aim is to present to their readers a translation of the Bible that as accurately as is humanly possible reproduces in English the words originally written in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek.

    Therefore, the basis of your post and the basis of your position regarding the textual basis of contemporary translations of the Bible is nothing but incorrect assumptions based upon faulty information.
    This is all sounds very intellectual, but when you shake the dust, all you are left with are the source manuscripts provided by Tischendorf, as requested by Hort, which was the "rich material" to replace that "vile" book. See post at top of page.

  9. #159
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    And you're using Dan Wallace's website. Dan agrees with modern versions on 1 Timothy 3:16. So is Dan in on all of this too?
    Joe, you owe me an apology, I don't even know who Dan Wallace is, and I do my own research.

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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    This is all sounds very intellectual, but when you shake the dust, all you are left with are the source manuscripts provided by Tischendorf, as requested by Hort, which was the "rich material" to replace that "vile" book. See post at top of page.
    No, I am left with the truth in excellent translations of the Bible based upon eclectic Old and New Testament texts prepared from very ancient manuscripts that do not include hundreds of years of copyist errors. The manuscripts are not perfect, and the texts prepared from them are not perfect, but they are far more accurate than Greek New Testament text of 1550 that was the principle text from which the New Testament in the King James Version of the Bible was translated.

    I can sympathize with those who love the King James Version of the Bible because my very first Bible was such a Bible, and all of my early Bible studies were prepared using the King James Version. Moreover, very many of the hymns that were so precious to me as a young Christian included quotes from the King James Version. And like many other Christians, the first Bible verses that I memorized were from the King James Version. Indeed, the first three times that I read through the entire Bible, I used a King James Version; and the first twelve times that I read through the New Testament, I used a King James Version.

    However, after I had read through the New Testament twelve times using the King James Version, I read through the New Testament using the Revised Standard Version with the second edition (1971) of the New Testament. Very much to my surprise, I came upon verses in the New Testament that were not familiar to me. When I compared them with the King James Version, I saw that I had read them in the King James Version but had misunderstood them. This surprised me because I had recently read Thomas Shelton’s 1612 translation of Don Quixote, and I experienced no difficulty in understanding the English of that period. Furthermore, I had an excellent university education and had completed many courses on the interpretation of literature. The problem was that the New Testament in the King James Version was not as well translated as it was in the Revised Standard Version and I had misunderstood some verses in the King James Version.

    My friends told me that I should not read the Revised Standard Version because the translators were very liberal in their theology and, therefore, could not be trusted. One of these friends gave me a New Testament from the New American Standard Bible and told me about the ultraconservative theology of the translators. I compared it with the King James Version and the Revised Standard Version and saw that it read much more like the Revised Standard Version than the King James Version.

    My life took an unexpected change in its course, and I found myself studying Greek and Hebrew, New Testament exegesis, translation theory, and the textual basis of the New Testament. That was some years ago, but my interests in theses fields of study have not diminished and the volumes in my personal library now number in the thousands.

    The truth has always been very important to me, and became all the more important to me upon my salvation. Having been originally educated as a scientist, I am still very reluctant to believe anything unless it is very well supported by factual evidence. Therefore, my quest for the truth involves a lot of careful, objective, and prayerful study of the facts. I have several volumes in my personal library written by folks in the King James Only sect, and I have had several friends who were a part of that sect, and my observation of them has been that instead of being on a journey to learn the truth, they are on a journey to propagate their unfounded devotion to the King James Version of the Bible and to vilify other versions of the Bible and the people whom God used to give us those versions. In your posts, you commingle facts with unwarranted assumptions, misinformation, and malicious, libelous lies. The unwarranted assumptions, misinformation, and malicious, libelous lies have been pointed out to you in this and other threads, and yet you continue to post them. Therefore, I shall let you go on your way.

  11. #161
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Unless you haven’t looked, the New Testament is accessible to us layman. It is just the Old Testament that they keep from us. http://www.csntm.org/ (click on manuscripts)
    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    And you're using Dan Wallace's website. Dan agrees with modern versions on 1 Timothy 3:16. So is Dan in on all of this too?
    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    You claim 14,000 errors. Let's grant it. You sound like Bart Erhman. Now what kind of errors are in those 14,000? Dan Wallace, whose website you use, says that most errors are spelling or nonsense errors in all the manuscripts.
    Quote Originally Posted by rejoice44 View Post
    Joe, you owe me an apology, I don't even know who Dan Wallace is, and I do my own research.
    Dan Wallace is the executive director of The Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts . . . or csntm.org

    Here's an article from him about why he doesn't think the King James is the best English translation available today. It's a good article. I'm curious to hear your comments about his article.
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    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

  12. #162
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Are you a Christian rejoice44? Do you believe the word of God? Why are you trying to say the bible has all kinds of mistakes in it? Don't you believe that the Holy Spirit preserves His word?

  13. #163
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jemand View Post
    One of the most important qualifications for an investigator is an objective, analytical mind. Reading maliciously false propaganda written by men and women whose goal is not to promote the objective, analytical reading of the Bible but to deceive their readers into believing what is known to be false does not constitute investigating the truth—it constitutes giving into the powers of darkness and believing maliciously false lies.

    Studying the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament to determine the most likely original text begins with learning how to read Greek. The next step is to learn the basics of textual criticism—not just of the Biblical texts, but also of old literature in general, such as the writings of William Shakespeare and Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra where the original text is in doubt. The third step is to learn the basics of textual criticism as it applies specifically to the ancient Greek manuscripts of the New Testament. The fourth step is to commit many years of one’s life to, as fairly and objectively as possible, the study of the ancient Greek manuscripts while continuing to learn the methodology of New Testament textual criticism.
    And after we complete these steps we would agree with you ?
    That the bible is "corrupted".
    Just think of all those years where Christianity flourished, all that time they were using a "corrupted" text!
    But now that we have so many new translations it is clear to everyone that the bible is corrupted!

    I guess I might be seen as someone who simply "loves the KJV" and has no concern for the direction which all you highly intelligent folks are taking the bible.

  14. #164
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack702 View Post
    And after we complete these steps we would agree with you ?
    That the bible is "corrupted".
    Just think of all those years where Christianity flourished, all that time they were using a "corrupted" text!
    But now that we have so many new translations it is clear to everyone that the bible is corrupted!

    I guess I might be seen as someone who simply "loves the KJV" and has no concern for the direction which all you highly intelligent folks are taking the bible.
    The main person arguing for corruption is from KJVO advocates who want everyone to avoid new translations. They argue that modern versions are corrupted.

    Jemand's main point (and I don't imply that I'm speaking for him - I'm just saying what I understood his meaning to be) was that despite his great education, he misunderstood KJV English. Hundreds of words we still use have changed meaning. He read verses for years that he didn't understand and didn't even realize he misunderstood the meaning. That is the biggest problem of the KJV. It isn't a case of the translators doing a poor job even. They did great. However, English has changed --- drastically. The KJV is not clear now. It was perfectly clear in prior times.

    I was debating with a KJVO advocate at this website who complete misinterpreted 1 Timothy 6:20 because the meaning of words have changed. So here this guy was duking it out with me about the superiority of the KJV and in the mean time he was completely misinterpreting 1 Timothy 6:20 because he was using the KJV and didn't understand what those English words meant in the days of 1611 (or 1769).

    The KJV is still great. But one should purchase a copy of the King James Bible Word Book and read that first to make sure they don't misinterpret words we still use today that have a different meaning. Or they can more simply pick up a modern version and save themselves that intermediate step.

    It seems to me that was the biggest point Jemand was making. English changes. We cannot deny this. And I've quizzed many people, teens and adults about certain KJV phrases that sound like we should know what they mean and they misinterpret them due to the language change over four centuries.

    This isn't about who is smarter than who. However, it is about people reading a Bible that they can understand. Some believe the KJV is the only Bible that can be trusted. This is simply false. The KJV can be trusted. So can modern versions. The KJV can be more easily misinterpreted due to no fault of the translators but just due to the course of time, language and history.
    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - unknown

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

  15. #165
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    Re: Which translation is correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    It seems to me that was the biggest point Jemand was making. English changes. We cannot deny this. And I've quizzed many people, teens and adults about certain KJV phrases that sound like we should know what they mean and they misinterpret them due to the language change over four centuries.
    Exactly my point in regards to Hebrew and Greek languages.
    If you honestly think that our current definitions of these languages is the same as when these scritpures were originally written then I say apply the same logic you are using to understand how english has changed.
    When the very nature of the languages is changing over time then we begin to fool ourselves when we say that we better understand the language today than they did in the past.

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