God loves all

[Redeemed by Grace]

And I thought what we are doing here is sharing our understandings of what is written within the word, not declaring what is written within the word. And what I said was that such an understanding that God doesn't love all is taught, that is not necessarily what is happening here but it is taught yes? Am I wrong there? Is this not something that is taught in certain churches?

I am absolutely sharing what I understand. Not sure why the semantics all of a sudden have changed for you, but my direction and effort have not.

God loving all folks is one of those Purpose Driven tenets that declares come as you are stay as you are, for God loves you. The gospel declares repentance and faith, through the love of God in Jesus Christ. That love is conditional to the hearers ears.... This is a digression on my part, but you did ask.

Do you not think one should question there understanding? I am very glad I questioned mine. That is all I'm saying RbG. Doesn't mean ones understanding will change, in fact it can bring greater conviction.

So why do you assume I don't do the same?

[keyzer soze]

Howdy KS,

Would you then say that God loves everyone the same or has degrees of love? Or does God remove His love from some? And if so, when so?

I would say that I don't believe that scripture (as I understand it today) explains this in enough detail for me to wrap my little tiny brain around. I do believe that Jesus LOVED EVERYONE. He had love for the guy who approached him about eternal life but left empty handed because he was not willing to put Christ first. I truly because Jesus loved him and Jesus is God so I believe God loved him just the same.

The premise being made is that all men are sinners and start with God's condemnation; and then the next premise is that God loves all men the same, then how do so some of the all men are sinners become saved if God loves all men the same?

God lives outside of time, this is an issue that I almost brought up on a previous page where you were going back and forth regarding how does one deal with the "elect" before they come to Christ and I don't believe this is an issue for God because God is outside of time. However, because I am stuck INSIDE of time and because I am stuck in this sinful body with a VERY FINITE and limited IQ, I can not unravel the question with the scripture that I understand enough to state that "it is because of some LOVE that the elect receive that separates them from the non-elect." From what I can understand, it might be for a different reason that reads better to say: "It is because of glory that the elect are covered in His blood and the non-elect are not."

This is a very deep subject to say the least, and it's hard not to give opinion based on feelings or experiences.... But as to what the word of God declares does He love the unrighteous?

well the only difference between the righteous and the unrighteous in this life time is the blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore if I was going to be PRESSED to make a stand and answer your question I would say that God LOVE or/and HATES every human EQUALLY, both the elect and non-elect because it is only His son that makes the difference. I do NOT feel comfortable with my statement, I don't believe scripture says that, I believe we can look at Jesus and see his love and compassion for all sinners, even those who refuse him, even those who crucified him!

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

This is over my head, I don't pretend to know anything. I simply have read and talked to my pastor at length about this and felt a need to share. I do believe that God has revealed enough for us to believe that God loves all. Now for me to stand up and make a case that all is equally and all that... why bother, that is on God. I know my Mom and Dad love me and my siblings very, very, very much. I don't want to get into a debate with them if their love for all of us is exactly equal.

I guess what i am saying is what if the "election" is based on Glorification of God/Jesus and not on some measurement of love? So its for a reason/measurement that we can not begin to understand because we are sinful and not a Holy God...

[Christinme]

God loving all folks is one of those Purpose Driven tenets that declares come as you are stay as you are, for God loves you.

Well RbG, I think we, you and I are in agreement that those "in Christ" have Christ in them and are changed. So although I say God loves all, I am in no way saying that those "in Christ" aren't changed by God. I can appreciate your concern here however this is not what I am saying. I will say though if you open yourself up to the possibility that God loves all, you may be surprised at what you find.

have you considered what if you were wrong?

What are trying to say towards me... CIM?

Do you not think one should question there understanding? I am very glad I questioned mine. That is all I'm saying RbG.

So why do you assume I don't do the same?

I'm not assuming RbG, as you can see I asked if you considered it. I didn't say you didn't. I shared what happened when I considered I was wrong, you didn't, so I asked if you had considered it. I didn't mean to cause offense.

[Christinme]

I guess what i am saying is what if the "election" is based on Glorification of God/Jesus and not on some measurement of love?

This resonates ... I see this. The nation of Israel was "elected" to serve a purpose for the Glorification of God, isn't about individual salvation. Jacob was "elected" to serve a purpose for the Glorification of God. Those in Christ are "elected" to serve a purpose for the Glorification of God, it's not just about our individual salvation. So hop, hop let's get to it.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I would say that I don't believe that scripture (as I understand it today) explains this in enough detail for me to wrap my little tiny brain around. I do believe that Jesus LOVED EVERYONE. He had love for the guy who approached him about eternal life but left empty handed because he was not willing to put Christ first. I truly because Jesus loved him and Jesus is God so I believe God loved him just the same.

How about the Pharisees?

God lives outside of time, this is an issue that I almost brought up on a previous page where you were going back and forth regarding how does one deal with the "elect" before they come to Christ and I don't believe this is an issue for God because God is outside of time. However, because I am stuck INSIDE of time and because I am stuck in this sinful body with a VERY FINITE and limited IQ, I can not unravel the question with the scripture that I understand enough to state that "it is because of some LOVE that the elect receive that separates them from the non-elect." From what I can understand, it might be for a different reason that reads better to say: "It is because of glory that the elect are covered in His blood and the non-elect are not."

IMHO... God has ordained time and thus lives in and out of time.... Jesus was born to a time planned. Prophesy declares the event, God fulfills it to His time table. Your and my salvation and to the point all who believe were determined by God before the word started, yet sin was also with in God's view, not as it's author but as the user of sin within this Plan, again before the world was... The order of when sin came is immaterial to this discussion but God does not react to events of time, for all things created are under His will and authority... And yes, this is very complex and would agree to not get lost in worry becuase of it.

well the only difference between the righteous and the unrighteous in this life time is the blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore if I was going to be PRESSED to make a stand and answer your question I would say that God LOVE or/and HATES every human EQUALLY, both the elect and non-elect because it is only His son that makes the difference. I do NOT feel comfortable with my statement, I don't believe scripture says that, I believe we can look at Jesus and see his love and compassion for all sinners, even those who refuse him, even those who crucified him!

You raise of good point in Jesus offering compassion... So would His love have a variance as to who one is? Maybe you haven't be following closely, but the thread is purposed to say that God loves all people equally, for which in my studies find challenging to grasp. For we are told that God's love never fail's or that nothing can separate us from His love. So then the question, who are the us? Christians? Or every man?

This is over my head, I don't pretend to know anything. I simply have read and talked to my pastor at length about this and felt a need to share. I do believe that God has revealed enough for us to believe that God loves all. Now for me to stand up and make a case that all is equally and all that... why bother, that is on God. I know my Mom and Dad love me and my siblings very, very, very much. I don't want to get into a debate with them if their love for all of us is exactly equal.

I appreciate you candor... it is hard and yet I struggle with it still myself... I still see the conflict between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent and all the scripture that declare warning and cautions and learnings and find that Love is through Jesus Christ... If those without Jesus, do they have this love? again, I say I am persuaded to say no they do not.

I guess what i am saying is what if the "election" is based on Glorification of God/Jesus and not on some measurement of love? So its for a reason/measurement that we can not begin to understand because we are sinful and not a Holy God...

I always fall back to God's glory as well... and for many years here I have declared that a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in Gad, through God, because of God, least any man would boast.

Scripture is very interesting, because one can find scripture to support almost everything, but truth comes when the sum of scripture without modification or compromise is understood. Thus even thou most here see John 3:126 as a proclamation that means all men, it is conditional as to faith.

[Christinme]

Thus even thou most here see John 3:126 as a proclamation that means all men, it is conditional as to faith.

Just to be clear and properly represented what most at least this one sees here is the love means all men the eternal life is conditional as to faith.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Well RbG, I think we, you and I are in agreement that those "in Christ" have Christ in them and are changed. So although I say God loves all, I am in no way saying that those "in Christ" aren't changed by God. I can appreciate your concern here however this is not what I am saying. I will say though if you open yourself up to the possibility that God loves all, you may be surprised at what you find.


I'm not assuming RbG, as you can see I asked if you considered it. I didn't say you didn't. I shared what happened when I considered I was wrong, you didn't, so I asked if you had considered it. I didn't mean to cause offense.

To settle your mind, I struggle with everything I write and teach or share here with the Lord, for my words are to be a reflection of what I believe He has given me to understand, so you can now always assume the positive of me... and then particularly when I write with you, for I know you measure every word, so I have to be on guard and make sure I equally measure my words.

[keyzer soze]

How about the Pharisees?

Yes, I believe that Jesus loved the Pharisees... Saul for example I believe was loved. Jesus HATED what the pharisees had become and what they were doing to God's word and purpose but I get the feeling when I read about Jesus that Jesus fully got what it was to be human and fully got what sin does to a man. Jesus knew there was NOTHING good in a man and I believe that speaks to the elect and non-elect.

IMHO... God has ordained time and thus lives in and out of time.... Jesus was born to a time planned. Prophesy declares the event, God fulfills it to His time table. Your and my salvation and to the point all who believe were determined by God before the word started, yet sin was also with in God's view, not as it's author but as the user of sin within this Plan, again before the world was... The order of when sin came is immaterial to this discussion but God does not react to events of time, for all things created are under His will and authority... And yes, this is very complex and would agree to not get lost in worry becuase of it.

You raise of good point in Jesus offering compassion... So would His love have a variance as to who one is? Maybe you haven't be following closely, but the thread is purposed to say that God loves all people equally, for which in my studies find challenging to grasp. For we are told that God's love never fail's or that nothing can separate us from His love. So then the question, who are the us? Christians? Or every man?

well my guess is that God's love is a tad bit deeper and more sophisticated then my love or my comprehending so to attempt to tie out how I understand love to the elect and non-elect is probably impossible. I believe the election process (why some are elect at all and everyone simply isn't separated from God) has more to do with glorification process then love/mercy. I believe love and mercy are very much involved here, but somehow everything that happens glorifies Christ in some way over my head.

I appreciate you candor... it is hard and yet I struggle with it still myself... I still see the conflict between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent and all the scripture that declare warning and cautions and learnings and find that Love is through Jesus Christ... If those without Jesus, do they have this love? again, I say I am persuaded to say no they do not.

Totally know why you would say this, this is the very reason that shakes my faith when I attempt to connect all the dots myself, but I believe it is biblically sound to say that God loves all humans at least while they are alive. LOL. I say this because I needed to tackle this concept in a practical way for witnessing to the unsaved because I didn't know how far to take John 3:16. Well I believe I can look at anyone in the eye and say Jesus loves you and died for you.... etc... which I struggled with BEFORE coming to this site.

I always fall back to God's glory as well... and for many years here I have declared that a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in Gad, through God, because of God, least any man would boast.

Scripture is very interesting, because one can find scripture to support almost everything, but truth comes when the sum of scripture without modification or compromise is understood. Thus even thou most here see John 3:126 as a proclamation that means all men, it is conditional as to faith.

In bold above has been a real eye-opener for me. All I can figure is that God has left mysteries a mystery on purpose and I do believe that if one attempts to reason everything out to their level of understanding they will have to trample of some of God's truths and have problems. I believe we need to humble ourselves and recognize the fact that God's ways/reasons/love/etc... are INFINITELY bigger than us and simply TRUST HIM because that brings Him glory. It seems to be about the only thing we can offer God is our trust.

A while back when I was reading the bible and deliberating on the OT it hit me that the entire foundation for God's chosen people, Israel, was stemmed around a commandment given by God to KILL a family member.... If I was to turn on the TV today and read how someone killed their child, or attempted to, because God told them to do it, I know what my natural thoughts about that person and act would be..... With God I don't believe He ever intended for us to be able to reason everything out (or at least not someone of my intellect) yet trust in Him regardless.

[Christinme]

To settle your mind, I struggle with everything I write and teach or share here with the Lord, for my words are to be a reflection of what I believe He has given me to understand, so you can now always assume the positive of me... and then particularly when I write with you, for I know you measure every word, so I have to be on guard and make sure I equally measure my words.

I have no doubt that you struggle with everything you write and that your words are a reflection of what you believe He has given you to understand. What I was asking which I may not have measured my words enough was if this is a settled question for you. You say you struggle to say that God has love for all, do you struggle to say that God does not have love for all? Is this a settled question for you, that was what I was attempting to say.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I have no doubt that you struggle with everything you write and that your words are a reflection of what you believe He has given you to understand. What I was asking which I may not have measured my words enough was if this is a settled question for you. You say you struggle to say that God has love for all, do you struggle to say that God does not have love for all? Is this a settled question for you, that was what I was attempting to say.

As I stated before... I lean towards no... and so far no one has brought compelling evidence via scriptures that shows that God loves everyone the same and thus then removes that love from those who do not believe. Is it 51% or 99% I don't know or think that it matters, for I see scriptural contradiction that would see God loving everyone the same way 100% of the time. I see His grace towards all folks in various ways, and I'd might to even go as far to might agree that there are degrees of love could be interpreted threw Jesus' ask to forgive His killers.... But to the agape love you offered, that sacrificial giving of Himself without condition, doesn't fit for me.


Sorry.

[Redeemed by Grace]

well my guess is that God's love is a tad bit deeper and more sophisticated then my love or my comprehending so to attempt to tie out how I understand love to the elect and non-elect is probably impossible. I believe the election process (why some are elect at all and everyone simply isn't separated from God) has more to do with glorification process then love/mercy. I believe love and mercy are very much involved here, but somehow everything that happens glorifies Christ in some way over my head.

Very true!

Totally know why you would say this, this is the very reason that shakes my faith when I attempt to connect all the dots myself, but I believe it is biblically sound to say that God loves all humans at least while they are alive. LOL. I say this because I needed to tackle this concept in a practical way for witnessing to the unsaved because I didn't know how far to take John 3:16. Well I believe I can look at anyone in the eye and say Jesus loves you and died for you.... etc... which I struggled with BEFORE coming to this site.

Very wise KS... I'd agree

In bold above has been a real eye-opener for me. All I can figure is that God has left mysteries a mystery on purpose and I do believe that if one attempts to reason everything out to their level of understanding they will have to trample of some of God's truths and have problems. I believe we need to humble ourselves and recognize the fact that God's ways/reasons/love/etc... are INFINITELY bigger than us and simply TRUST HIM because that brings Him glory. It seems to be about the only thing we can offer God is our trust.

That is what a good part of faith is... Trusting in God and not leaning so much on our own understandings... Gee for a youngin in the faith, you sure have a wise heart... Must be His work within you that is oozing out.

A while back when I was reading the bible and deliberating on the OT it hit me that the entire foundation for God's chosen people, Israel, was stemmed around a commandment given by God to KILL a family member.... If I was to turn on the TV today and read how someone killed their child, or attempted to, because God told them to do it, I know what my natural thoughts about that person and act would be..... With God I don't believe He ever intended for us to be able to reason everything out (or at least not someone of my intellect) yet trust in Him regardless.

Well that one you'd have to explain to me, for it goes back a bit farther... For it wasn't to kill a family member per se, but the promise of the Messiah... Abraham trusted God for the promise, whereas He didn't trust God prior with forcing a son through Sarah's handmaiden

[Christinme]

As I stated before... I lean towards no... and so far no one has brought compelling evidence via scriptures that shows that God loves everyone the same and thus then removes that love from those who do not believe. Is it 51% or 99% I don't know or think that it matters, for I see scriptural contradiction that would see God loving everyone the same way 100% of the time. I see His grace towards all folks in various ways, and I'd might to even go as far to might agree that there are degrees of love could be interpreted threw Jesus' ask to forgive His killers.... But to the agape love you offered, that sacrificial giving of Himself without condition, doesn't fit for me.

Thanks alot for more fully describing where you are at with this.

I think it is interesting and relevent you bringing up Jesus' asking for His killers to be forgiven.

Luke 23:24 But Jesus was saying, “ Father, forgive them; for they do not know what they are doing.”

You think they were forgiven? I think so.

We also read where Paul says:

1 Timothy 1:12-13 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service, even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

We find in scripture many times when people are forgiven because they know not what they do. We also see this:

John 20:23 If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.

What is your interpretation here? Can we intercede to have sins forgiven?

[keyzer soze]

Well that one you'd have to explain to me, for it goes back a bit farther... For it wasn't to kill a family member per se, but the promise of the Messiah... Abraham trusted God for the promise, whereas He didn't trust God prior with forcing a son through Sarah's handmaiden

I have been asked by people why God chose Israel as His chosen people.... And unless I am greatly missing the answer myself it boils down to the faith of Abraham, and God tested His faith through this request:

1 Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.”

So at the end of the day, God's people are who they are because of this man's faith was so great that he would sacrifice his son to God which unless I am mistaken, includes killing a child. Wouldn't you say that this act of faith is one of the biggest game changes in human history? Another HUGE one being a guy building a boat INLAND away form the sea before anyone had seen rain. Just blows my mind to stop and think about the greatest game changers in human history come from requests from God that had to make virtually NO SENSE to those who received the request. In either of their cases I know I would have been thinking, "you have got to be kidding, building this boat will take me 100+ years plus how will I drag it to water?" or "you have got to be joking, killing my son does not feel right at all, I must have this wrong or God must not be a loving God." All I was getting at is that I believe there can be what appears to be logic gaps in scripture and thus I can allow the same and not have to logically connect every dot between election and God's love.

Deut 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer
Gen 22:2 “Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you.”

All I am saying is that the above 2 verses can seem pretty ironic to me if I try to over think everything and apply everything to a logical conclusion and attempt to 100% understand and comprehend perfectly in my tiny peon of a brain.

[Brother Mark]

How about the Pharisees?

Yes, "even" the loved the Pharisees. Here are a couple of verses.

1. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected the purpose that God had for them, which was to repent and be baptized by John's baptism. They tried to do so without repenting.

Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
NASU

2. Jesus longed for Jerusalem, who kills the prophets, to repent. We know that it is the religious crowd, i.e. the Pharisees, the lawyers, Saducees, etc. that killed the prophets so they are included in the longing Jesus had for them.

Matt 23:37-39

37 " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!'"
NASU

3. John 3:16 was written in the broadest terms that the writer could write it. So much so, that the writer, as God inspired, used the word world. I see no room for the word "world" to exclude any human being, for everyone is part of and in the world at some point.

John 3:16-17

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
NASU

4. We know that it is love that will cause a man to lay down his life as John 3:16 tells us. 1 John 2 tells us that Jesus paid for our sins and the sins of the "whole" world. As mentioned earlier, the Apostle thought it important to say "whole" when speaking of the world, thereby leaving no one out of the meaning of the word.

1 John 2:1-2

2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU

IMHO... God has ordained time and thus lives in and out of time.... Jesus was born to a time planned. Prophesy declares the event, God fulfills it to His time table. Your and my salvation and to the point all who believe were determined by God before the word started, yet sin was also with in God's view, not as it's author but as the user of sin within this Plan, again before the world was... The order of when sin came is immaterial to this discussion but God does not react to events of time, for all things created are under His will and authority... And yes, this is very complex and would agree to not get lost in worry becuase of it.

If he planned it, he authored it. No getting around that, IMO. Now, if he planned "for" sin, instead of planning sin, that's different. It would be the difference between me planning for what to do when a terrorist attack occurs storm and planning the terrorist attack.

You raise of good point in Jesus offering compassion... So would His love have a variance as to who one is? Maybe you haven't be following closely, but the thread is purposed to say that God loves all people equally, for which in my studies find challenging to grasp. For we are told that God's love never fail's or that nothing can separate us from His love. So then the question, who are the us? Christians? Or every man?

We are told his love never fails and that we are never separated from His love. We are not told he loves differently. His love doesn't fail, even the lost person. His love sent Jesus to die for the ungodly, even if that ungodly man goes to hell. We can come short of the grace of God. That doesn't mean the love failed or that grace failed. Even a saved man can come short of the grace of God.

Heb 12:15
15 See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
NASU






I appreciate you candor... it is hard and yet I struggle with it still myself... I still see the conflict between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent and all the scripture that declare warning and cautions and learnings and find that Love is through Jesus Christ... If those without Jesus, do they have this love? again, I say I am persuaded to say no they do not.

I always fall back to God's glory as well... and for many years here I have declared that a man's salvation is for God, of God, by God, in Gad, through God, because of God, least any man would boast.

And what is His glory? When God showed Moses his glory, he showed him his goodness! His character! God's character is revealed in His love. It is also revealed in his judgment. However, mercy is greater than judgment and preferable to God. He is not self seeking as that is the opposite of love. (I Cor. 13.)

Scripture is very interesting, because one can find scripture to support almost everything, but truth comes when the sum of scripture without modification or compromise is understood. Thus even thou most here see John 3:126 as a proclamation that means all men, it is conditional as to faith.

When we don't modify John 3:16, but take it as written, and when we don't compromise on what it says, then we can believe that God loves the world. Faith doesn't condition the word "world" in John 3:16. The gift is offered for those that don't believe, in order that they might believe. Love comes before faith. Therefor, it is not conditional upon faith.

Grace to you,

Mark

[Brother Mark]

As I stated before... I lean towards no... and so far no one has brought compelling evidence via scriptures that shows that God loves everyone the same and thus then removes that love from those who do not believe.

Sure they have. Many times. On the other hand, no one has shown that God's love is limited.

How much planer can scripture be than John 3:16 and 1 John 2:1? Where does "world" get limited to elect in those verses? God chose a very broad word, i.e. world, when penning John 3:16. He did so for a reason!

Now, scripture does imply that one can be separated from God's love if he dies in unbelief. But that implication comes because God makes it clear that those things listed in Romans 8 cannot separate a believer from his love. So being separated from the love doesn't make it a different kind of love.

Is it 51% or 99% I don't know or think that it matters, for I see scriptural contradiction that would see God loving everyone the same way 100% of the time.

Where?

I see His grace towards all folks in various ways, and I'd might to even go as far to might agree that there are degrees of love could be interpreted threw Jesus' ask to forgive His killers....

What verse does God say that there are degrees of love? What chapter? It appears to me to be an assumed doctrine.

But to the agape love you offered, that sacrificial giving of Himself without condition, doesn't fit for me.

Thing is, God tells us he has agape for the world. Then he tells us in 1 Cor. 13 what agape means. The condition is to stay in his love, not to be loved. The offer is the result of love and is offered before faith exists in a person, while that person is ungodly.