God loves all

[Slug1]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Seems the word "all" shows that God has love for... all?

[Slug1]

I've talked with >>Reformed Theology<< people who assert that "we-few-elect MUST (irresistibly) love God, because God loved us-few first".

Now see... ya said a term that is all about DOCTRINE (mans interpretation of scripture to match their desired truth) and not about God's TRUTH.

[Gadgeteer]

God lives outside of time thus this wouldn't be an issue IMO. Note, not taking sides here, simply making a point that since God is outside of time, I believe that if it is like RbG says, then that would not be an issue because we are elected before the foundation of the earth.

Hi, "Keyzer". Referring to 2Thess2:13:

"God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through ...faith in the truth." 2Thess2:13

How can someone be chosen through faith, before he believes? And how does that fit with Eph1:4-6?

"He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, (to be) holy and blameless before Him. ...adoptions as sons according to the kind intention of His will ...which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved"

[Gadgeteer]

I've talked with >>Reformed Theology<< people who assert that "we-few-elect MUST (irresistibly) love God, because God loved us-few first".

Now see... ya said a term that is all about DOCTRINE (mans interpretation of scripture to match their desired truth) and not about God's TRUTH.

But do we prove that to one who embraces "Reformed Theology"? How do we prove that "God loves ALL, and permits whoever is willing to do His will (Jn7:17) to come to Him"?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us,[a] not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Seems the word "all" shows that God has love for... all?

Some in Reformed Theology perceive that as:

"God does not boulemai-decree to perish any whom He's decreed-not-perish, but patiently waits for those to come to repentance whom He's predestined TO repent and their time OF repentance."

How do we prove to someone that is not a legitimate understanding? How do we prove that God loves all, and decrees no one to perish, but patiently waits for "as many as will come" to repent?

[Christinme]

Once again in this thread I would appreciate it if we don't diverge from the subject of God loves all into the mechanics of belief or other such subjects. I understand that this is not an easy thing to do. Again there are many other threads discussing these other concepts, and I would not like this thread to be turned into the same.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Verse 21/23 shows us that God's love "will be" made manifest "to" any who loves in return. It don't mean He don't have love for them. The scriptures show us that once love is returned then ALL God has to offer (living within a person, eternal life, etc) is now possible. The LOVE is always there... the eternal relationship isn't until love is returned to God and relationship has begun. God's love doesn't BEGIN with us loving Him FIRST. Jesus would have never been sacrificed if WE had to love Him first for Him to love us.

To even think that God's love isn't there until AFTER we love Him is counter to scripture.

1 John 4:¹⁹ We love Him because He first loved us.

We CAN'T love God without the fact that He LOVED us all first... so to say that UNTIL we love Him, He don't have love for us... counters the scriptural context of His love.

Exactly my point... One cannot inherit the house unless he has been named as part of the will... One cannot love unless God opens their eyes to His love for them... You probably meant it in the general and I point out that it is to the specific individual. God Loves Jesus, and Jesus Loves the Father... and through that love - they love all that the Father has given Jesus.... and then He uses all the believers to witness and love those who are not believers, even if it requires their lives. Thus the day you believed is the day 'you received inside you the love of God, His personal love. Before that it was an open offer from God --- and until you 'accepted' or better, believed, does it become actionable.

John 17:13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.

20 I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me

Clearly Jesus is declaring that He along with the Disciples are not of the world, for they like Jesus are hated for the cause of Jesus, yet are given the task to love .

John 17:6 I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them

God's love for the world is through the testimony of those who believe SO IN order to bring them to repentance and faith as well... Thus this is why we preach the Gospel, why Paul and Barnabas and James, and Peter, and John preached the Gospel... Why they wrote that we are to love our brothers and our enemies, for we are His vessel towards that Love... We have Jesus' love residing inside us - being 1st hand, offering that love to the lost then as 2nd hand, and when the gospel is preached and they respond, then they also receive God's 1st hand love. Quite clear that Jesus came to the world and is not of the world as so we too are in the world but not of the world. So the process in simple terms; hear the gospel, Repent and Believe, now grow in love for all and share the gospel to the next person who when he hears it, believes and they now share the gospel. This is the Gospel at work.

Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love

1 Timothy 1:14 and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus

So let me try explaining this in another way.

- The invitation to the Love of God through Jesus Christ His Son is global, universal, and open to all who hear the gospel.
- Those who then believe are indwelt with God’s Spirit and His love manifests itself through us.
- We, those who believe -- are then instructed to love the Lord and to love all men as a testimony of God in Jesus Christ.

Repeat.


John 3:16A shows the universal offer; 16B is the conditional application/acceptance. A is open to all; B is conditional through faith. God's love is given to all who believe and becomes real to the believer... this is God's Love indwelling a believer and is His 1st hand love in faith.

Thus if God loves everyone the same, then His love resided within every man thru faith... and by His covenantal promise, will never leave nor forsake them. Thus if God’s love is without condition, then His promise doesn’t require His Son as the vessel to express this love. So let’s not confuse the offer of His love with having possession of this love… for the offer of His love is to all men everywhere, and the love of His people reaching all peoples when the Christian is submissive and obedient to the Love of Christ within them, but receiving that love of God in Jesus Christ is the key for anyone who believes only.

I'm trying to show the variance between the offer and the delivery and to make distinction that they are not the same.... for you have to be named on the will to inherit the house. But the good news is all one has to do is repent and believe to receive, and become children of God.

Praise God, yes?

[Brother Mark]

Once again in this thread I would appreciate it if we don't diverge from the subject of God loves all into the mechanics of belief or other such subjects. I understand that this is not an easy thing to do. Again there are many other threads discussing these other concepts, and I would not like this thread to be turned into the same.

One of the problems with the reformed position is many of the things Jesus said.

For instance, Jesus told us to "love our enemies". Does that mean that God loves his enemies? Would Jesus not keep his own command.

Another is how Jesus blasted the pharisees and lawyers for putting burdens on people then not lifting a finger to help them. Does God then put the burden of belief on someone without providing the faith needed to believe? Does he do that which he condemned the lawyers for doing? Will he not lift a finger to help the non-elect?

Another time, Jesus spoke of who our neighbor was and how we are love them. He spoke of the Samaritan and told how the Samaritan stopped to help the one in need. But a priest and a Levite saw the wounded man and passed on by. The Samaritan had compassion and stopped and helped the man. If God sees a spiritually wounded man, will he stop to help or walk on by?

There are just too many examples in scripture where Jesus speaks of love for us to suggest that God does not love some people.

Grace to you,

Mark

[Redeemed by Grace]

One of the problems with the reformed position is many of the things Jesus said.

For instance, Jesus told us to "love our enemies". Does that mean that God loves his enemies? Would Jesus not keep his own command.

Another is how Jesus blasted the pharisees and lawyers for putting burdens on people then not lifting a finger to help them. Does God then put the burden of belief on someone without providing the faith needed to believe? Does he do that which he condemned the lawyers for doing? Will he not lift a finger to help the non-elect?

Another time, Jesus spoke of who our neighbor was and how we are love them. He spoke of the Samaritan and told how the Samaritan stopped to help the one in need. But a priest and a Levite saw the wounded man and passed on by. The Samaritan had compassion and stopped and helped the man. If God sees a spiritually wounded man, will he stop to help or walk on by?

There are just too many examples in scripture where Jesus speaks of love for us to suggest that God does not love some people.

Grace to you,

Mark

Hi Mark,

But do you not love people differently as they relate to you... Do you not love your wife differently than your mother? Sister? Daughter? Son? Father? Do you love God differently than you love yourself? Do you treat your best friend and someone who you may not like equally? When the OP claims that God loves everyone equally that speaks covenantial love to me... And that love endures keeps holds, thus if that is so, then all men are must be save, which I know is not so... But as Jesus also declared, the world hates Him and us - us being those in Christ, thus there has to be a variance, a difference, or just an offer.

[Brother Mark]

The invitation to the Love of God through Jesus Christ His Son is global, universal, and open to all who hear the gospel.

Is it open to those that don't hear the gospel?

We, those who believe -- are then instructed to love the Lord and to love all men as a testimony of God in Jesus Christ.

I agree with this. We are instructed to love all men because God loves all men and as a witness that God loves all men. Right?

[keyzer soze]

I still vote that this is not an easy topic. Here are just a couple of passages that I have thought about that help murky the waters! LOL. All I mean by them is that it seems to at least illustrate a different level of love/devotion between Christ and a believer verses an unbeliever.

26, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

And yes, while we are told to love our enemies, we are also told this:

Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

[Brother Mark]

Hi Mark,

But do you not love people differently as they relate to you... Do you not love your wife differently than your mother? Sister? Daughter? Son? Father? Do you love God differently than you love yourself? Do you treat your best friend and someone who you may not like equally? When the OP claims that God loves everyone equally that speaks covenantial love to me... And that love endures keeps holds, thus if that is so, then all men are must be save, which I know is not so... But as Jesus also declared, the world hates Him and us - us being those in Christ, thus there has to be a variance, a difference, or just an offer.

Here's the thing RGB, you speak of differences based on covenant and relationship. I agree that covenant and relationship matter when it comes to how we experience love. That doesn't mean that God loves differently. It means that covenant and relationship help us experience it more fully. A father has two sons. One stays in his love and the other leaves. He loves both the same. But the one who stays in relationship experiences all the benefits of that love. The one who leaves, doesn't have the same experiences and promises and benefits of the love of the father. Same love but different fulfillment based entirely on the status/health of the relationship.

For instance, Romans 8 shows how those in covenant with God cannot be separated from His love. However, it does not say that love is different than the love expressed in John 3:16. Nor does it say that the love in Romans 8 is different than how God loves His enemies.

Does God walk by the man laying on the road? Or is he the Samaritan that helps?

Does God lift a finger to help relieve the burdens he places on man? Or does he do as the lawyers and pharisees and not grant any help at all?

Matt 23:1-4

23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: " The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 " They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
NASU

Does God do according to the deeds of the scribes and Pharisees? Will he place a burden of belief upon a man but then not help that man believe?

[Brother Mark]

I still vote that this is not an easy topic. Here are just a couple of passages that I have thought about that help murky the waters! LOL. All I mean by them is that it seems to at least illustrate a different level of love/devotion between Christ and a believer verses an unbeliever.

26, "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple."

It makes one want to study what the Lord means by hate, does it not?

And yes, while we are told to love our enemies, we are also told this:

Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

Indeed! If one rejects love and mercy, what's left other than judgment, vengeance, wrath, etc? I believe God loves every man, woman and child according to John 3:16 and many other scriptures. But if we reject that, what's left?

Luke 7:30
30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.
NASU


Thing is, what do we do with verses like this that I quoted above to RGB?

Matt 23:1-4

23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: " The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 " They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
NASU

Will God place a burden to believe upon a man then not lift a finger to help him believe? Is God really like that which he condemns?

[keyzer soze]

can you jump over to the election vs. free-will thread, because I don't want to hijack this one. I still believe it is more complicated then this. Look at the examples I posted there. You have David sinning which leads to God declaring a sin that his son will perform. Then, when his son performs it can God hold his son accountable? Had David not sinned would his son had still slept with David's wives? It's freaking complicated because no matter how you answer that I can come back with another impossible question. God's sovereignty must trump all or none of this makes sense to me. I believe a man can be judged for a sin that he performed that God decreed would happen. It's NOT an easy thing to process, in fact I can not, but I don't see any other way to read this stuff. And there are quite a number of these stories where God says: "because you sinned your future ancestors will not do this sin" and then it happens. I believe that the sin is still performed by the "free-will" of the person but it is all happening INSIDE of God's sovereign plan, not the other way around.

[Christinme]

Matt 23:1-4
23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: " The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 " They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

This is first time this has been brought into this thread and I think it is relevant. Jesus had his harshes words to the religious leaders. Paul is mostly dealing with growing up believers.

And I think this was already mentioned in this thread but was not addressed by anyone:

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

It seems the "us" is believers and the "their" and the ''them" is unbelievers. God is not counting their trespasses against them. I talk about this more in one of my posts on the second page of "Light/light of the world".

[Brother Mark]

can you jump over to the election vs. free-will thread, because I don't want to hijack this one. I still believe it is more complicated then this. Look at the examples I posted there. You have David sinning which leads to God declaring a sin that his son will perform. Then, when his son performs it can God hold his son accountable? Had David not sinned would his son had still slept with David's wives? It's freaking complicated because no matter how you answer that I can come back with another impossible question.

If the question makes the answer impossible, then perhaps the answer is wrong. I can go take a look. But I generally avoid the whole election, free will, etc. kind of debates/thinking. Once we get God's character right, the rest of the stuff falls more into place. It doesn't eliminate all mystery, but it has less mystery, IMO.

God's sovereignty must trump all or none of this makes sense to me.

It doesn't make sense because your definition of sovereignty is that God plans and forces (I know that's a strong word) all things. Lay that aside, and everything else starts fitting in.

For instance, God saying that David's son will sin is different than God forcing, planning, causing, etc. David's son to sin.

God's sovereignty defines his ability. It doesn't define his heart. For instance, it's like saying the fastest man in the world robs banks because he is fast. Being fast has nothing to do with whether he will rob banks or not. The man's heart and character will determine how he uses his speed. God's heart and character will determine how he uses his sovereignty.

I believe a man can be judged for a sin that he performed that God decreed would happen. It's NOT an easy thing to process, in fact I can not, but I don't see any other way to read this stuff.

Did God decree it or predict it?

And there are quite a number of these stories where God says: "because you sinned your future ancestors will not do this sin" and then it happens. I believe that the sin is still performed by the "free-will" of the person but it is all happening INSIDE of God's sovereign plan, not the other way around.

Happening inside God's plan doesn't mean God planned every detail of it and caused it.