God loves all

[Christinme]

I think the problem arises when we insert our subjective moral relativism into God's economy.

Yea like if we say He can't love them if He allows them to go into the eternal fire.

Its not about love. Its about justice.

Yes I agree primarily that is what it is about.

The point I was trying to make is that some do use their "subjective moral relativism" (your term) to say that "He can't love them if He allows them to go into the eternal fire"; and they say that this is a "proof" that God does not love some people, i.e. because He allows them to go into the eternal fire. That's all I was trying to say ... if that makes any sense to you, hope so ... lol.

[Christinme]

What Caleb wrote at the end of post #10 was really a light bulb moment for me so I'm going to expound on it, God only knows if it could be a light bulb moment for some others.

God is love, holy and just. We can't really look at certain scripture and state oh this shows/proves God is being unholy or this shows/proves God is being unjust. I think in general Christians would agree with this. However sometimes some will look at certain scripture and state oh this shows/proves God is being unloving. God can no more be unloving than He could be unholy or unjust. If our "reasoning" is leading us to conclude that certain parts of scripture show/prove God is unloving towards some than I would say it's time to go back a step or two and reexamine things.

[andrew_no_one]

To love what is good is to hate what is evil. I love children, therefore, I hate abortion.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

[Christinme]

To love what is good is to hate what is evil. I love children, therefore, I hate abortion.

You are saying you love children (a catagory of people) therefore you hate abortion (an action that kills children). So do you hate those who have abortions or do abortions (certain people)? How do you balance that with scripture that states we are to love our enemies? I would consider those who have abortions or do abortions to be enemies.

Psalm 11:5
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

We are told to love even our enemies ... and then we are also told if we don't hate our own father and mother, etc. or we cannot be His disciple, so is hate here in opposition to love??? Does God's "hate" of the wicked preclude Him from loving them? Did Christ come to call the sinners or the righteous? Are the wicked not included in the "For God so loved the world"?

[Redeemed by Grace]

41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

If by hell you mean the eternal fire in this parable Jesus states that it was prepared for the devil and his angels.


God chastens all, so yea He chastens those He loves.



The devil and his angels and all that don't chose God. He loves them enough to let them go where they want. Eventually that is what every parent has to do. You might not like what they do or chose but it doesn't mean you don't love them. Just like the prodigal son ... got to let them go. Or as is said elsewhere deliver them to satan.

Hi CIM,

Of all the subjects to choose, this one is one of the most difficult. The bible shares many of God's attributes, love, long-suffering, angry, jealous, patient, vengeful, etc, but offers limited if nothing in how He interacts with all men. We do know that God wiped out all men less 8 in the flood, and also know of His future Judgment in the Day of the Lord... So knowing His mind in that He loves all men everywhere, I just don't really know. But as speculation, think that that as there is a yes or a no, up or down, left or right, dark or light, good or evil, I would assume that He provided for those that He loves and those that He hates... but maybe not as with human emotion, but as Godly wisdom????


Again, very interesting and deep topic... one that may never really come to the right conclusion.

[Christinme]

Of all the subjects to choose, this one is one of the most difficult.

Yes difficult subject, think that reflects any on my nature???

The bible shares many of God's attributes, love, long-suffering, angry, jealous, patient, vengeful, etc, but offers limited if nothing in how He interacts with all men. We do know that God wiped out all men less 8 in the flood, and also know of His future Judgment in the Day of the Lord... So knowing His mind in that He loves all men everywhere, I just don't really know.

Fair enough. Just to share some of the thoughts that have entered my mind ... I'm (we're) instructed to love our enemies ... that would probably include some that will be going into the eternal fire. I don't see how I am capable of doing that ... is that just something that we can't do? The only way possible that I see to do that is to look to the Christ in me to do it. So it's not I but Him. And if it's Him then He has love for them.

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

And not only did He give Himself up for me He gave Himself up for you too. I feel confident to say that, confident to say that to you, confident to say that to all.

But as speculation, think that that as there is a yes or a no, up or down, left or right, dark or light, good or evil, I would assume that He provided for those that He loves and those that He hates... but maybe not as with human emotion, but as Godly wisdom????

He has provided whatever it is that He has provided and agreed not with human emotion but with Godly wisdom.

Again, very interesting and deep topic... one that may never really come to the right conclusion.

1 Corinthians 13:12-13 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

[keck553]

Yes I agree primarily that is what it is about.

The point I was trying to make is that some do use their "subjective moral relativism" (your term) to say that "He can't love them if He allows them to go into the eternal fire"; and they say that this is a "proof" that God does not love some people, i.e. because He allows them to go into the eternal fire. That's all I was trying to say ... if that makes any sense to you, hope so ... lol.

Yes it does make sense. God allows people to make choices. Some simply choose to reject Him. That doesn' t alter God's character.

____

[Redeemed by Grace]

As any Father, God chastises His children.

God cannot and will not allow any sin or stain of sin to enter His Kingdom or the new heaven and earth, or we will be back to square one.
That is why He will make all things new. As much as God loves man, all that will not or does not get cleansed by the blood of Christ shall have to be burned up.

God is Love and He does not change. No one and nothing can change Him
Just as God is Holy and He does not change. No one and nothing can change Him.

Every thought and action of God is love, just as every thought and action is holy, and righteous and just. To say that God can be unloving towards anyone, is to say that He can be unholy, unrighteous and unjust towards someone.

Hi Caleb,

Not trying to burst a bubble... but all we can offer is a fair attempt to understand the mind of God as it relates to His love and His wrath. God is love no doubt, but does His love spread to all men equally... I lean to say no. God gives man His Son as a way to redeem their sin, which is open and conditional... [the Whosoevers]. I'm not even sure if God thinks, for man thinks and based on learned understanding contriving thoughts that may be relative to what he's been taught. But God is not as man, He doesn't learn or discern, and would suggest,doesn't even ponder. So God's thoughts have to be different than man's thoughts, for which to believers is much more immense that we can't even understand it.

God is love and holy and righteous and just.... and also jealous and vengeful, and reserves His wrath until the end times, all according to His will... So as I stated to CIM, this is a tough topic and one that may never find an answer to.

Man sketches, and doodles, and outlines, and drafts ideas, and ponders and notions and weighesdata against some measurement stick of his own nature and thus his character moves. God, doesn't do any of these. For as men and women,are thinking about the 7Billion folks who are alive on this earth and how He manages all their thoughts, and prayers and actions -- of all the folks of the world with all backgrounds and languages --- as if one. Not to mention those who die and are born... meaning if in relationship to mans emotion if He could, he's be happy with this group of diverse folks here, unhappy with these folks over there, etc.... all at the same time...

So I submit declaring God loves all men everywhere as He would those who love Him in His Son.... is great thought on our part, but by His word, we can't find that... so we just have to say God is big, and His will is just, and trust that His will is done in all peoples everywhere.

Again I lean that He loves some more that others, and as bible history has shown, hated certain populations of people that He annihilated. Yet saved others.

[Christinme]

Again I lean that He loves some more that others

Granted the relationships between God and a believer and God and a nonbeliever are different. However is it God who is different towards each (loving one more than the other) or is the relationships different because of the different states of each of the men. A believer is open to God's mercy and all that goes along with that, an unbeliever isn't.

Even looking in human terms, let's say a man has two sons and one rejects the father and the other does not. The non rejecting one would be receiving more from the father because he was open to it. Does it necessarily mean that the father loves one son more than another? I would say that it is not necessarily true that the father would love one son more than the other; though from some peoples "view" it might appear that way, however I don't think that it is necessarily the truth.

[Silvermist]

I agree. God will not be mocked, he will not put up with an unrepentant sinner and He doesn't expect us to either. We are not to hurt them but not to fellowship with them either.

Granted the relationships between God and a believer and God and a nonbeliever are different. However is it God who is different towards each (loving one more than the other) or is the relationships different because of the different states of each of the men. A believer is open to God's mercy and all that goes along with that, an unbeliever isn't.

Even looking in human terms, let's say a man has two sons and one rejects the father and the other does not. The non rejecting one would be receiving more from the father because he was open to it. Does it necessarily mean that the father loves one son more than another? I would say that it is not necessarily true that the father would love one son more than the other; though from some peoples "view" it might appear that way, however I don't think that it is necessarily the truth.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Hi CIM,

It's probably time for you to introduce what you mean by 'love'. This may help the replies to your thread see this a bit better.

[Christinme]

I agree. God will not be mocked, he will not put up with an unrepentant sinner and He doesn't expect us to either. We are not to hurt them but not to fellowship with them either.

Yes we are not to fellowship with them however we are told to do more than not harm ... we are told to love them.

[Christinme]

Again I lean that He loves some more that others

Granted the relationships between God and a believer and God and a nonbeliever are different. However is it God who is different towards each (loving one more than the other) or is the relationships different because of the different states of each of the men. A believer is open to God's mercy and all that goes along with that, an unbeliever isn't.

Even looking in human terms, let's say a man has two sons and one rejects the father and the other does not. The non rejecting one would be receiving more from the father because he was open to it. Does it necessarily mean that the father loves one son more than another? I would say that it is not necessarily true that the father would love one son more than the other; though from some peoples "view" it might appear that way, however I don't think that it is necessarily the truth.

It's probably time for you to introduce what you mean by 'love'. This may help the replies to your thread see this a bit better.

Greetings,
What I mean by "love" is agape love. Hopes that helps.

[Brother Mark]

Has God prepared hell for those He loves? For we know God chastens those He loves. So who then goes to Hell if He loves all men?

The people who reject God's love go to hell. Or said another way, people who reject Love.

God didn't prepare hell for man. Scripture says God prepared hell for the devil and his angels.

[Brother Mark]

Its not about love. Its about justice.

The two are not mutually exclusive. God loves even those that end up rejecting him. When you sin against mercy by rejecting Love, what else is left other than judgment?