God loves all

[Brother Mark]

But to love, then at some point His universal love, that 'agape' love being presented here.... would then come to an end for some, which is not equal to the enduring love He has for those in Christ Jesus. For if God's love for a person is not enduring, then one would fear that God would divorce Himself from them, then it be a works based faith and not grace... So thinking out loud, there still needs to be a variance between those In Christ and those who are not... for if God removes His agape love some folks, when does it happen?

I think you conclude that love that endures is different than love that does not endure. I would suggest that the endurance is what is different, not the love. John 3:16 states that God loved the world and again, John stated that he died for our sins and for the sins of the world. (IOW, Jesus died for both believers and unbelievers). So you ask the question, well then, if God loves all, when does one become separated from His love.

Does scripture tell us when one can no longer receive God's love? (Oh, BTW, when Jesus tells us to love our enemies, it is the same exact word used in John 3:16 when Jesus states that God loved the world.) After death comes judgment. One better be in Jesus or one is judged and condemned. Christ didn't come to condemn and He was sent because of Love. But that day is coming. If we are not in Christ at judgment, are we not then separated from the love of God? I think so, but then does scripture speak of what separates us from God's love? Does it address it?

One need not always concern himself with great answers or great questions. Such has been a beef of mine with the reformed movement. Instead of saying "I don't know", it is said "love doesn't mean love" and "world doesn't mean world" and so on. Better to say to questions "I don't know" than to say "Well, God means something different than what is written". Right?

[Brother Mark]

And as to what I just posted above, then God's love is conditional.

No. The experiencing the fullness of God's love and it's endurance is conditional. Let us not confuse love with time and experience.

[Redeemed by Grace]

No. The experiencing the fullness of God's love and it's endurance is conditional. Let us not confuse love with time and experience.

Is not experience the recipients response to love? We are talking about God giving Love to all men.

I submit that if God loves me today, that He will love me tomorrow. My experience should have no bearing on His love towards me. Now if He one day no longer loves me, then He has set a condition that stops that love towards me, for which then as a believer, scares me, for what condition as a believer would I have to be in if He stopped loving me

If God never changes, then His love for someone would never change, for if He loved someone today, and then not tomorrow, regardless in what they do, His love would hold them... for those He loves, He chastens. So if someone who dies without believing in Jesus as Savior, but claiming that God loved him while alive, then God didn't get that chasten that saves him as a child of His.

So Again, I have to think that God loves those in Christ for sure. Not too sure if the claim can be made for those outside of Christ, for that same love would not protect, or hold, or secure anyone's salvation if God's love can't protect.

[Caleb]

Hi Caleb,

Not trying to burst a bubble... but all we can offer is a fair attempt to understand the mind of God as it relates to His love and His wrath. God is love no doubt, but does His love spread to all men equally... I lean to say no. God gives man His Son as a way to redeem their sin, which is open and conditional... [the Whosoevers]. I'm not even sure if God thinks, for man thinks and based on learned understanding contriving thoughts that may be relative to what he's been taught. But God is not as man, He doesn't learn or discern, and would suggest,doesn't even ponder. So God's thoughts have to be different than man's thoughts, for which to believers is much more immense that we can't even understand it.

God is love and holy and righteous and just.... and also jealous and vengeful, and reserves His wrath until the end times, all according to His will... So as I stated to CIM, this is a tough topic and one that may never find an answer to.

Man sketches, and doodles, and outlines, and drafts ideas, and ponders and notions and weighesdata against some measurement stick of his own nature and thus his character moves. God, doesn't do any of these. For as men and women,are thinking about the 7Billion folks who are alive on this earth and how He manages all their thoughts, and prayers and actions -- of all the folks of the world with all backgrounds and languages --- as if one. Not to mention those who die and are born... meaning if in relationship to mans emotion if He could, he's be happy with this group of diverse folks here, unhappy with these folks over there, etc.... all at the same time...

So I submit declaring God loves all men everywhere as He would those who love Him in His Son.... is great thought on our part, but by His word, we can't find that... so we just have to say God is big, and His will is just, and trust that His will is done in all peoples everywhere.

Again I lean that He loves some more that others, and as bible history has shown, hated certain populations of people that He annihilated. Yet saved others.

Hi Redeemed by Grace!

Not sure if I have followed you correctly, as I am a bit slow.

Why did God wipe all mankind except 8?
I don’t really know, but I am convinced that He loved them even though He chose to annihilate them and not the 8.
How do we know how man would have turned out had not God intervened at that time? God often steps in to stop wickedness getting even more wicked.
It might not have been a good thing, but it might have been best thing for mankind as a whole.

I often get the ‘well God loved Jacob, but hated Esau’

I believe it is possible to love the one you hate.
We are told to hate out father, mother, husband, wife etc… but then we are also told to love them. (imho) I believe that this ‘hate’ means when we are to choose one above another.

Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters, for you will love one and hate the other. It is my belief that you can love both, but when you are faced with having to make a choice of one above the other, the one you choose will be loved and the other hated.

You say that ‘yes’ God is love, but He is also wrathful, jealous, vengeful, angry etc..
But when all things are made new Love will remain, because God IS love. Wrath, jealousy, vengeful, angry etc.. are temporary and will pass away.

Just another thought:

God cannot lie, and He would not tell us to lie:

We are told to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all men.
How can we preach to some that God loves them and demonstrated His love for them, in that Jesus died for them, if for some that might not be so?

Jesus said the sower had sown the good seed even on the hard path, among the rocks and the thorns. That seed is the gospel of God’s love and grace and mercy towards them and all men.

[Brother Mark]

Is not experience the recipients response to love? We are talking about God giving Love to all men.

I submit that if God loves me today, that He will love me tomorrow. My experience should have no bearing on His love towards me. Now if He one day no longer loves me, then He has set a condition that stops that love towards me, for which then as a believer, scares me, for what condition as a believer would I have to be in if He stopped loving me

If God never changes, then His love for someone would never change, for if He loved someone today, and then not tomorrow, regardless in what they do, His love would hold them... for those He loves, He chastens. So if someone who dies without believing in Jesus as Savior, but claiming that God loved him while alive, then God didn't get that chasten that saves him as a child of His.

So Again, I have to think that God loves those in Christ for sure. Not too sure if the claim can be made for those outside of Christ, for that same love would not protect, or hold, or secure anyone's salvation if God's love can't protect.

And your reasoning requires you to read John 3:16 other than how it is written. I think we should reason starting with what is written. If God says he loves the world, then we should believe it not reason it away.

Jesus didn't die for the righteous or those in God. He died for the ungodly. By definition, he died for those that were opposed to Him and His enemies. It is for this reason that Jesus can tell me to "love your enemies" because he loves his enemies.

The same word Jesus used for "love" in "love your enemies" is the same word he used to say God "loved" the word. Does God love his enemies or his he a hypocrite? Does God only love some of his enemies that will eventually believe? Or does he love his enemies in the same spirit that Jesus tells us to love our enemies?

I think a plain reading of the scriptures answers many of these questions even if it leaves some others unanswered.

[Gadgeteer]

It's been my understanding that God loves all.

Matthew 5:43-48 You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus tells his disciples to "love your enemies ... so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven." And "if you only love those who love you" you are being like the tax collectors. This says to me that the Father who is in heaven loves his enemies and the Father doesn't just love those who love Him. It goes on to say that this is how we can be perfect like the Father is perfect.

What does "He loves them", mean? Does He love them in the sense that He desires all to be saved? Ezekiel 18 says,
"Do I have any pleasure in the death of anyone who dies, rather than that they should repent and live?"

When Jesus was on the Cross, He looked at the very men who were murdering Him. Did He love them? Did He forgive them? He absolutely did. "Father, forgive them; they don't know what they're doing." Mark 23:34.

Suppose we were talking about some pretty sinful people. Suppose they were more like unreasoning animals, counting it a pleasure to revel in their sins and stains all day long. Their eyes full of adultery, accursed children, never ceasing from sin, their every thought only evil continually. They are slaves of corruption, storm-driven-mists for whom the black darkness is reserved. Pretty rotten bottom-of-the-barrel people, aren't they? But what were Jesus' thoughts on these people, who are described as I did in 2Pet2:12-19?

"...the Master BOUGHT them". 2Pet2:1.

Jesus bought them? Jesus died-on-the-Cross for them? How could it mean anything else?

In John3:16, God loved the WORLD --- all the world, as 1John2:2 alludes (He is the propitiation for the whole world)?

I think you have made a spectacular thread, "Christinme". God is love (1Jn4:16); and as such, He loves every person whom He created, and desires that they live forever. This is what Peter said in 2:3:9.

[Redeemed by Grace]

And your reasoning requires you to read John 3:16 other than how it is written. I think we should reason starting with what is written. If God says he loves the world, then we should believe it not reason it away.

Hi Mark... John 3:16... Is not God's love speaking globally and not specifically? Absent is the word mankind, or man, as is many times used. World seems to be something larger, yet vague. In hanging my hat that God loves every individual, I should be able to find another reference point that states that God Loves all peoples everywhere... No remember, I'm not auguing to argue, I'm pointing out to make sure this is water tight, for which I hesitate.

Jesus didn't die for the righteous

Agreed.

or those in God.

Don't undersand what you mean by this.

He died for the ungodly. By definition, he died for those that were opposed to Him and His enemies.

This part I disagree, He came to save that which is lost, not His enemies.

It is for this reason that Jesus can tell me to "love your enemies" because he loves his enemies.

I don't follow ya on this one, Jesus came to save that which were last, not those who were against Jesus, for that be everyone at some point.

The same word Jesus used for "love" in "love your enemies" is the same word he used to say God "loved" the word.

I must be one of the few who don't put stock on finding words used by differing authors to confirm meaning the same things, for today many use the word 'sick' and 'ill' and it's by context and exegetic study do we find that it mean's "cool" or nice one time and not feeling well there the next.

Does God love his enemies or his he a hypocrite? Does God only love some of his enemies that will eventually believe? Or does he love his enemies in the same spirit that Jesus tells us to love our enemies?

I think a plain reading of the scriptures answers many of these questions even if it leaves some others unanswered.

I would agree that's why I lean to say the the world is not specific enough to say every man and woman are saved under Christ... Again, I believe it's bigger and open to say all who will believe, but not inclusive to say every or all men. So God's love is genuine and all encompassing in His nature, but limited in scope to those who will believe.

[Gadgeteer]

Has God prepared hell for those He loves? For we know God chastens those He loves. So who then goes to Hell if He loves all men?

What is the dynamic of "God's chastening"? You and I have discussed Hebrews12.

"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are WITHOUT discipline (of which all have become partakers), then you are illegitimate and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them; SHALL we not much rather BE in submission to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, and live?" Heb12:7-9

"...much less shall we escape who turn away from God!" Heb12:25.

God commands all men to love Him (Matt22:37); it is the same command as in Acts17, where God determines men's places and times so that they might seek/grope and find Him, though He's not far from any of us, and He commands all men everywhere to repent.

So --- God chastens whom He loves; but, per the verses we just discussed, exactly who puts anyone under God's chastening? Does God do it, or do we subject ourselves?

SHALL we not much rather BE in submission to the (discipline of the) Father of spirits, and live?

How many ways are there to understand this simple question, Redeemed?

[Brother Mark]

Hi Mark... John 3:16... Is not God's love speaking globally and not specifically? Absent is the word mankind, or man, as is many times used. World seems to be something larger, yet vague. In hanging my hat that God loves every individual, I should be able to find another reference point that states that God Loves all peoples everywhere... No remember, I'm not auguing to argue, I'm pointing out to make sure this is water tight, for which I hesitate.

Already gave you a second quote. 1 John 2 where it states that Jesus died for "our sins" (i.e. saved people) and "the world" (i.e. saved people).

John 3 is in context of being born again and is addressing people. The entire passage is about people.

John 3:9-21

9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 " No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 " For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
NASU

Don't undersand what you mean by this.

The same thing I meant by righteous. However one wants to put it.

This part I disagree, He came to save that which is lost, not His enemies.

I don't follow ya on this one, Jesus came to save that which were last, not those who were against Jesus, for that be everyone at some point.

The lost are his enemies.

Rom 5:10
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
NASU

He died for his enemies, for those that hated him. It's all inclusive i.e. "the world".

I must be one of the few who don't put stock on finding words used by differing authors to confirm meaning the same things, for today many use the word 'sick' and 'ill' and it's by context and exegetic study do we find that it mean's "cool" or nice one time and not feeling well there the next.

I get your point and there are times it is justified. But when the plane meaning of the word in context has to be changed to fit a doctrine, should we not change our doctrine instead of the word?

Does God love his enemies or his he a hypocrite? Does God only love some of his enemies that will eventually believe? Or does he love his enemies in the same spirit that Jesus tells us to love our enemies?

Jesus prayed to God concerning His enemies "Father forgive them. They know not what they do." Is that not how we are to pray for our enemies? The way Jesus and God love their enemies is described in John 3:16 and revealed on the cross when Jesus uttered his prayer.

I would agree that's why I lean to say the the world is not specific enough to say every man and woman are saved under Christ... Again, I believe it's bigger and open to say all who will believe, but not inclusive to say every or all men. So God's love is genuine and all encompassing in His nature, but limited in scope to those who will believe.

Specific enough? On the contrary! It's broad enough to include them. To make it more specific would narrow it down.

Again, the passage doesn't say they are all saved. But it does say that the world was who God loved. I see no need to make it narrower than what the passage made it in context. Jesus stated that God loved all men enough to send his Son to die for them that they may be redeemed.

Your argument and belief in God says this "God who is Love, does not love". It doesn't hold water, IMO.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Hi Redeemed by Grace!

Not sure if I have followed you correctly, as I am a bit slow.

Why did God wipe all mankind except 8?
I don’t really know, but I am convinced that He loved them even though He chose to annihilate them and not the 8.

Now I've been playing what if just to test the theory that God loves all men equally... But if God chose to annihilate them, what about us then?

How do we know how man would have turned out had not God intervened at that time? God often steps in to stop wickedness getting even more wicked.
It might not have been a good thing, but it might have been best thing for mankind as a whole.

Yep... as with myself, most of this is speculation on our part... Does God love all men is the statement, yet some men He must them loves forever, and Others He must stop loving them in judgement.

I often get the ‘well God loved Jacob, but hated Esau’

This, I understand... God has purposed differing roles and differing positions.

Another verse that stands before the 'God loves all' statement is:

Romans 9:21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

I believe it is possible to love the one you hate.

Through Christ all things are possible and to this instruction doable... There are and will be many martyrs who will die at the hands of God's enemies to God's glory. God's name and His glory are above all things and thus in part one reason why I see this as our command, for it show's His grace in us towards those who hate God. But would save His grave and His love are different.

We are told to hate out father, mother, husband, wife etc… but then we are also told to love them. (imho) I believe that this ‘hate’ means when we are to choose one above another.

This tile might not be directly related to the subject as it might appear.

Jesus said, you cannot serve two masters, for you will love one and hate the other. It is my belief that you can love both, but when you are faced with having to make a choice of one above the other, the one you choose will be loved and the other hated.

You say that ‘yes’ God is love, but He is also wrathful, jealous, vengeful, angry etc..
But when all things are made new Love will remain, because God IS love. Wrath, jealousy, vengeful, angry etc.. are temporary and will pass away.

I think most likely at the end of the age... but in the day we live in, it is what it is.

Just another thought:

God cannot lie, and He would not tell us to lie:

We are told to go into all the world and preach the gospel to all men.
How can we preach to some that God loves them and demonstrated His love for them, in that Jesus died for them, if for some that might not be so?

I agree... preach to all everywhere, not our role to judge the heart... all men need to repent and believe upon Christ!

Jesus said the sower had sown the good seed even on the hard path, among the rocks and the thorns. That seed is the gospel of God’s love and grace and mercy towards them and all men.

But Jesus also stated that the soil, needs to be tilled in order to accept the good seed. So not to through in other paths, the quest has been does God love all men... And that is a difficult question.

[Brother Mark]

I agree... preach to all everywhere, not our role to judge the heart... all men need to repent and believe upon Christ!

Can I go and preach "Jesus died for you so that you may go to heaven! Repent and believe so you don't go to hell." Is that OK? Seems to me the reformed cannot preach that because they do not believe Jesus died for everyone.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Already gave you a second quote. 1 John 2 where it states that Jesus died for "our sins" (i.e. saved people) and "the world" (i.e. saved people).

John 3 is in context of being born again and is addressing people. The entire passage is about people.

John 3:9-21

9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 "Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 " No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 " He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 " For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."
NASU



The same thing I meant by righteous. However one wants to put it.







The lost are his enemies.

Rom 5:10
10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
NASU

Gottcha! More data makes sense now! agreed.

He died for his enemies, for those that hated him. It's all inclusive i.e. "the world".

I didn't see the we as being world, but to the church of believers in Rome

I get your point and there are times it is justified. But when the plane meaning of the word in context has to be changed to fit a doctrine, should we not change our doctrine instead of the word?



Jesus prayed to God concerning His enemies "Father forgive them. They know not what they do." Is that not how we are to pray for our enemies? The way Jesus and God love their enemies is described in John 3:16 and revealed on the cross when Jesus uttered his prayer.

I know it's hard, but I see comparatives back to man to God instead of God to God. The them, the they... fits to a specific folks of the time, the Jews and then the Romans... I understand that we want to say that God loves all men equally, yet no one has yet addressed the statement when does God pull His love away and for what reasoning?

[Redeemed by Grace]

Can I go and preach "Jesus died for you so that you may go to heaven! Repent and believe so you don't go to hell." Is that OK? Seems to me the reformed cannot preach that because they do not believe Jesus died for everyone.

Absolutely... And I will be in the audience giving you loud AMENS!!!!!!!!!

[Brother Mark]

I didn't see the we as being world, but to the church of believers in Rome

The passage I was referring to was the one in 1st John where John makes a distinction between us and them repeatedly in his book.

He speaks of those in fellowship and those out of fellowship.
He speaks of believers and antichrist.
He speaks of children of the devil and children of Christ.

And in this context, he says this:

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU

He wanted to make the point so profoundly, that he chose to use the word "whole" in front of the word "world". It's redundant but done so to make a point. It's "whole" and means complete or all.

NT:3650

NT:3650 holos (hol'-os); a primary word; "whole" or "all", i.e. complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb:

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So not only did he die for the saved, but he died for the lost. Not only did he die for the "children of God" but also for "the children of the devil".

I understand that we want to say that God loves all men equally, yet no one has yet addressed the statement when does God pull His love away and for what reasoning?

It's not whether I want to say or don't want to say it RGB. It's what the bible says that matters. I know it's beating a dead horse, but God said he loved the world when speaking to Nicodemus. That's good enough for me.

Jesus told us to love our enemies and then gave us the example of what that meant on the cross when he prayed for those that were killing him. He prayed that God would forgive them! That's God to God! He tells us to love our enemies then demonstrates what it means.

As for answering your question, I will go back to what I said earlier. If scripture answers it, we can answer. If it doesn't, then we leave it unanswered.

When we are in hell, I think it safe to say, we are separated from God's love. What else do we need beyond that? Here are some verses that suggest when we are separated from the love of God.

Heb 9:27-28
27 And inasmuch as it isappointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
NASU

It is illustrated in the OT with Noah.

Gen 6:3-4
3 Then the Lord said, " My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
NASU

[Brother Mark]

Absolutely... And I will be in the audience giving you loud AMENS!!!!!!!!!

Do you then believe that Jesus died for all men? Would I not be lying to say that "He died for you" from the pulpit if someone there was not nor ever would be part of the elect?