God loves all

[Christinme]

But for the study, the labels are in some respect, hold to a tainting, because everyone then focuses away from the bible to apply the label and all that bigotry holds to the one posting. "Oh, he is one of those..." becomes an on off switch as to what the truth is being discussed. I just wish it wasn't needed.

I agree and I would appreciate as much as possible for us to leave labels and some of the usual "key words" out of this thread, I don't think they are at all necessary for us or for those reading.

[Brother Mark]

But for the study, the labels are in some respect, hold to a tainting, because everyone then focuses away from the bible to apply the label and all that bigotry holds to the one posting. "Oh, he is one of those..." becomes an on off switch as to what the truth is being discussed. I just wish it wasn't needed.

I understand. I won't justify it (the labels) for now. The purpose of the post was to show the error of interpretation we fall into when we use God's ability as the starting point of our doctrine instead of his character. God uses his ability as directed by his character. His ability doesn't shape his character.

That was the point I was wanting to make and wanted others reading the thread to see.

[Christinme]

Yes, every christian today before being saved was an enemy of God

I know this was more towards the middle of your post but I want to highlight it here first. Glad we can agree on that.

Further context then also declares that all men are in darkness, and then to those who do not believe are judged already

So would you agree that every christian today before they believed was judged? That they only came out from under judgement when they believed?

The condition of belief confirms God's personal love bestowed through His Son, Jesus with the believer, yet I still struggle to say that God personally gives His individual love without Christ.

So for every christian today, before they believed and were in Christ, did God not personally give His individual love to that person? Is it only once they believe and are in Christ that God personally gives His individual love?

I offered this for consideration... What are your thoughts regarding:

Romans 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory

This could be a whole thread by itself. Before you were a believer where you a vessel of wrath? I say yes. We agree we were enemies before we believed and I believe enemies are the vessels of wrath. When we became a believer I believe we became a vessel of mercy. In Romans the 3 chapters directly before this, chapters 6-8 speak about the "old man" which sets his mind on the flesh and the "new man" which sets his mind on the spirit. Colossians 3 speaks about this concept of the "old man" and the "new man" also. Paul also speaks about it in some of his other letters also. So our "old man" is destroyed and our "new man" lives. That is my understanding.

The post I wrote to Mark above addresses my understanding of this and it is that God doesn't pull His love away. I don't see in scripture where it says He does. In an earlier post you state that you tend towards He loves some more than others ... so I ask you in your understanding do you think the ones He loves less than others ... that this less love is still existent when they go into the eternal flame? This question you put forth "when does God pull His love away and for what reasoning?" applies whether we say God loves all or we say God loves some more than others.

Well I I had the answer I would give it...

And I was so hoping you did and we could be done here.

But in general terms, it is hard to understand that God loves each man equally, that there is no difference within His love for a Child washed in the blood of the Lamb and a child who never believes.

Is there a difference within His love between a Child washed in the blood of the Lamb and a child who doesn't believe?

Romans 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Can be equally applied to a none believer??? So God's love would seem to me be different towards a non believer.

Here you just said a non believer and not one who would never believe. Just pointing that out, cuz that would then mean that Gods love towards a specific person would be different when the person was a non believer than when a person was a believer. Don't know if you are willing to go there but that is where what you said leads.

The verses you quoted speak about how believers are not separated from the love of Christ. Non believers are seperated from the love of Christ, however that doesn't mean that they are loved differently (this is my understanding). Believers are open to His love, non believers aren't open to His love.

So I am still not persuaded that God loves all people the same, if He does love all people, for I struggle with scripture that states the opposite...

I would say you struggle with scripture that appears to state the opposite ... because if it out and out stated it you probably wouldn't struggle. I don't see where there is scripture that states the opposite, not saying it doesn't exist, I just don't see it and I don't think anything has been presented here that conclusively states the opposite. And if Scripture out and out stated that God loves all and it was clear as the day ... I wouldn't have had to write that it is my understanding as I did in my first post. Does that mean we shouldn't struggle with this, I don't think so.

[keck553]

No. Once you are saved you cannot be separated from the love of God by those things listed. Before you are saved, you can be separated from God's love.

That says nothing about whether the love is different or not. Just that one can be separated from it while another can't by those things listed.

The love is the same. Nothing in the passage states it's a different kind of love.

Perhaps an example.

If I have a child that leaves my house and my protection and my provision, they are separated from my love. Doesn't mean my love is different for them than the one that stayed. But they are separated from what my love will do for them while they are gone. Doesn't mean that my love for the child that is gone is different than the love for the child that stayed. This is a poor example and will break down upon examination. But it gives a decent overview of what I am trying to say about love.

All your answers in this thread are Biblically sound, IMHO.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I understand. I won't justify it (the labels) for now. The purpose of the post was to show the error of interpretation we fall into when we use God's ability as the starting point of our doctrine instead of his character. God uses his ability as directed by his character. His ability doesn't shape his character.

That was the point I was wanting to make and wanted others reading the thread to see.

I didn't realize there was a hidden agenda with me Mark... For now revealed is your intent not to study together but discredit me to benefit your position... Another sigh... Truly it be nice that folks would just share what they know and not what they think the other believes or knows through stereotype and labels.

Oh well... it is was it is, I guess.

[Brother Mark]

I didn't realize there was a hidden agenda with me Mark... For now revealed is your intent not to study together but discredit me to benefit your position... Another sigh... Truly it be nice that folks would just share what they know and not what they think the other believes or knows through stereotype and labels.

Oh well... it is was it is, I guess.

I seek not to discredit you RGB. But I do wish to discredit the doctrine that God does not love all people for it is not scriptural. John 3:16 pretty much settles that along with 1 Cor. 13, 1 John 2.

[Redeemed by Grace]

I seek not to discredit you RGB. But I do wish to discredit the doctrine that God does not love all people for it is not scriptural. John 3:16 pretty much settles that along with 1 Cor. 13, 1 John 2.

Then all you had to say was that you disagree... instead you went back to a bit of name calling and stereotyping to get your point across and not to me per se -- but to others who may be searching as you say.

I have no problem being called a Christian, a Jesus Freak, a fool for Christ, a Reformist, a Baptist, 'one of those'.... and even a Calvinist, but labels like those are usually from outside the faith... What label that I'd hope folks here call me but is very rare ------ is brother.

We can engage in good discourse and learn or we can engage in debate and name calling, even if it is mild.... I've shared with you my heart as you have yours and show you why I disagree... Instead of understanding, you prefer to discredit, when I really do think you don't see my points.... If God loves you... there is nothing that will separate you from His love.


Let me take this to a personally level to illustrate. Are you married? Hope you say yes... You love your wife? Hoping for another yes. Then my question about that love... is there anything she can say or do that would stop you from loving her? Would you stop loving her if she yelled at you? How about swearing? How about if she spent all the money of the household? How about drinking or drugs? Would you still love her if she did the unthinkable, -- left you for another? Or is your love predicated upon what you get back in return?

See, I believe that God's love for a man is covenantial... that its irrevocable, and not dependent upon the actions of another. As you made a covenant with your wife, there should be nothing that breaks that covenant except death. Nothing. But men do as men do.

Thus God's love for the saved --- it has to be different than for the not saved. For if God vowels to protect and keep and hold, then those who are not saved would get God's same love... We know that this is not so, so the sum of they word being truth, the answer strongly suggest something different than all men everywhere are loved by God, for if so, then He saves all men, for that would be His covenant keeping.

[Brother Mark]

Then all you had to say was that you disagree... instead you went back to a bit of name calling and stereotyping to get your point across and not to me per se -- but to others who may be searching as you say.

Name calling? Below, you said you don't mind being called a reformer. Stereotyping? What did Paul say about the Cretens? What did Jesus say about the Pharisees? I am saying "Beware of the leaven of the reformers when it comes to what they say about God and His love".

I have no problem being called a Christian, a Jesus Freak, a fool for Christ, a Reformist, a Baptist, 'one of those'.... and even a Calvinist, but labels like those are usually from outside the faith... What label that I'd hope folks here call me but is very rare ------ is brother.

No problem with calling you brother. But why get so offended because someone calls your doctrine what you call it, i.e. reformed?

We can engage in good discourse and learn or we can engage in debate and name calling, even if it is mild....

Now, if I said of you what Paul said of the Cretens, I would agree that I have fallen into name calling. But I didn't. What I said and will say again, reformers start with God's ability, (i.e. his sovereignty) and say that other things flow out from that (i.e. his character/love must line up with his sovereignty). I say that line of thinking is backwards. God's character is what controls his ability.

Why not answer that? Does God's character move his sovereignty or does his sovereignty move per his character?

I've shared with you my heart as you have yours and show you why I disagree... Instead of understanding, you prefer to discredit, when I really do think you don't see my points....

Hogwash. I answered your questions and then stated that what reformers say and teach. If that's discrediting, then is not the blame laid at the feet of the reformers? If what I stated was wrong, refute it.

If God loves you... there is nothing that will separate you from His love.

In this we are agreed, that those things named in Romans 8 will not and cannot separate us from the love of God.

Let me take this to a personally level to illustrate. Are you married? Hope you say yes... You love your wife? Hoping for another yes. Then my question about that love... is there anything she can say or do that would stop you from loving her? Would you stop loving her if she yelled at you? How about swearing? How about if she spent all the money of the household? How about drinking or drugs? Would you still love her if she did the unthinkable, -- left you for another? Or is your love predicated upon what you get back in return?

I think we have discussed this before too. I've already agreed with you, for the most part, on the separation of the love of God. Because I don't want to derail the thread into OSAS/NOSAS I don't nit pick about it and in general agree.

See, I believe that God's love for a man is covenantial... that its irrevocable, and not dependent upon the actions of another. As you made a covenant with your wife, there should be nothing that breaks that covenant except death. Nothing. But men do as men do.

When one goes into covenant with God, he is sealed into His love. Before he is in covenant, he is not sealed.

Thus God's love for the saved --- it has to be different than for the not saved.

Not different. The same. Just one is in covenant and receiving all the love that God offers and the other is not.

There's no distinction made in scripture with agape. John 3:16 applies to the world. What you describe is not a difference in love but a difference in being in covenant or not being in covenant.

For if God vowels to protect and keep and hold, then those who are not saved would get God's same love... We know that this is not so, so the sum of they word being truth, the answer strongly suggest something different than all men everywhere are loved by God, for if so, then He saves all men, for that would be His covenant keeping.

They do get the same love. But they don't receive all that love offers until they move into covenant.

Show me a verse where God says love is different for saved and unsaved? John 3:16 says the world is loved by God. No distinction is made.

Show me a scripture that states he loves people differently not one that speaks about being separated from. Just one, that states "God loves elect this way but the lost that way."

In the end, can it be called love if God refuses to assist one to salvation? Is that love? How does that square with 1 Cor. 13?

[Christinme]

Well so much for the tone of the thread ...

I'll patiently wait to see if RbG is open to responding to my post. If not, God willing, I'll try to salvage the thread. For now I'll call it a night.

[Caleb]

Let me take this to a personally level to illustrate. Are you married? Hope you say yes... You love your wife? Hoping for another yes. Then my question about that love... is there anything she can say or do that would stop you from loving her? Would you stop loving her if she yelled at you? How about swearing? How about if she spent all the money of the household? How about drinking or drugs? Would you still love her if she did the unthinkable, -- left you for another? Or is your love predicated upon what you get back in return?

See, I believe that God's love for a man is covenantial... that its irrevocable, and not dependent upon the actions of another. As you made a covenant with your wife, there should be nothing that breaks that covenant except death. Nothing. But men do as men do.

Thus God's love for the saved --- it has to be different than for the not saved. For if God vowels to protect and keep and hold, then those who are not saved would get God's same love... We know that this is not so, so the sum of they word being truth, the answer strongly suggest something different than all men everywhere are loved by God, for if so, then He saves all men, for that would be His covenant keeping.

But even though you still love them the same, some may chose not to become a beneficiary of your love.

When we speak of ‘wife’ we are then speaking of family, just as a child is family. The covenant is for all that would come and enter into the covenant family of God. We enter into the covenant family as adopted children, who have chosen to come and become benefactors of His unconditional love.

A father can then impose his love and guidance, provision, protection, keeping, correction, raising up his children, because it is his ultimate responsibility to do so, but he cannot impose his fatherly-ness upon the child of another.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Well so much for the tone of the thread ...

I'll patiently wait to see if RbG is open to responding to my post. If not, God willing, I'll try to salvage the thread. For now I'll call it a night.

I'll be will you once my work day is done... cause you wrote much and want to give it a good thoughtful review... Again emphasizing how tough a topic this is, to say that God loves all people as He loves those in Christ is hard for me to see.... but will read your comments again for reply soon.

[Christinme]

I'll be with you once my work day is done... cause you wrote much and want to give it a good thoughtful review... Again emphasizing how tough a topic this is, to say that God loves all people as He loves those in Christ is hard for me to see.... but will read your comments again for reply soon.

Great and thanks. I think you have been quite thoughtful in your responses so far and I appreciate that. It takes me forever to respond to a post so I understand. It's pretty late here so I probably won't see your post untill tomorrow. As I wrote in my earlier post ... I don't think this is all clear cut so that's why I posted in my first post that it is my understanding that God loves all.

[Redeemed by Grace]

But even though you still love them the same, some may chose not to become a beneficiary of your love.

I hear what you are saying... but that should not change the love giving... Say God is the electricity and you are the computer... God gives the power [ie here being love] independent if you are on or off... So if a husband is committed to loving his wife, he should love her independent if she love him back or not... Now ideally we are to love one another, but love in it's pure format is one way giving. Two people giving of themselves to each other unselfishly as husband and wife....BAM... that's golden!

When we speak of ‘wife’ we are then speaking of family, just as a child is family.

In my usage I am specific to a husband and wife relationship becuase it patterns that of Christ and the Church.

The covenant is for all that would come and enter into the covenant family of God. We enter into the covenant family as adopted children, who have chosen to come and become benefactors of His unconditional love.

Taking that pattern to the extreme will find holes, but if you take it just to love and commitment, than it holds... If a husband loves his wife, he would die for her to protect her, just as Jesus died to redeem his bride. To God's love for us, the us being His Church, His believers, His bride to Jesus Christ. God loves Jesus so much that he gave us, [believers] to Him.

John 17:22 "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;
23 I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
25 "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;
26 and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

A father can then impose his love and guidance, provision, protection, keeping, correction, raising up his children, because it is his ultimate responsibility to do so, but he cannot impose his fatherly-ness upon the child of another.

But go back to your wife... your love for your wife is different than for your children... Your wife is a part of you by covenant... and as a husband, is like an extension of yourself... Two being one flesh. Your love for you wife came by your commitment and vow and you love is your love given.

That's been my hesitation to CIM and Mark, that God has to offer differing love between a Christian and a non-Christian, if He loves the non-Christian at all.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Have fun ... post #85 addresses the last post you made to me and I believe brings up some things you and Mark have not specifically covered, just pointing that out in case you missed it in the furry of posts. I removed the post from post #85 and put it on the next page post #93.

I'm looking for your post now CIM... Where did it go?

[Christinme]

I'm looking for your post now CIM... Where did it go?

It is post #93, I moved it up some so it wasn't back so far.