God loves all

[Redeemed by Grace]

RbG,

I read your post and it touched me, I could feel the sincerity with which you wrote it. After reading it I went into a silent room and asked "How am I to respond to this". I then sat in silence for about an hour, waiting for a response.

You shared with us earlier how you came to faith and I will now do the same. I was 23 and I was going through some serious problems in my life and a friend of mine suggested I read the Bible that evening, specifically the New Testament. When I was around 13 I had attempted to read the Bible and started in Genesis and never finished that book. So that evening when I was 23 I read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I saw how lost and sinful I was ... and I saw the great love God and His Son Jesus Christ had not only for me but for all. (Whether that is true or not it is what I saw.) I fell in love with Jesus Christ and God. It was not only the love He had for me that drew me to Him it was the love He had for all. I loved because He first loved us, and to me that us was all. (Again whether it's true or not that was my understanding.)

That is the God I fell in love with, one who loves all. So for me to come to the understanding you have would require me to leave "my first love". And it goes further than that. If what you say is true concerning God, I find no love in myself for such a God. And that would then mean that such a God had no love for me. So I am compelled to continue understanding God as one who loves all. This is the God I love, this is the God that loves me. Thankfully I can see such a God in scripture.

Amen CIM... As I finish my devotions this morning, I turn to this site and find your post -- and I'm holding back tears that are swelling in my eyes, for I praise God for your walk and for our discourse. Your testamony and faith is more important than wondering if God loves all or a few to me, and I thank you for sharing your heart, for you have blessed my day more than you will understand or realize.

Don't know how to return what you have given me, so I'll just say thank you and pray that God gives you more wisdom and understanding as you journey in your studies....

[Redeemed by Grace]

On what basis does God have wrath? Does He decide beforehand whom He will love, and on whom He has wrath? And those on whom He has wrath --- does He still love them and desire for them to be saved?

Not sure that this a 'real' question, but will trust that it is, I'll say it again, I see that God is not as man, thus He doesn't choose, He doesn't decide.... He will's; He purposes.... Within God's will, there are segments, as best as man can explain anyway.... There is His declarative will, and His secretive will. Hopefully self-explanatory. I have not been arguing that God is not Love, for He is, what I have been challenging is the notion that He loves every man and woman equally....

Help me understand something, will you? How do you perceive this verse? Are we chosen THROUGH faith? And if you perceive that we are chosen before faith (as I understand that you do), then how does that connect with 1Jn4:16, "God is love"? If we were chosen BEFORE we loved God and before we believed Him, then how does that not violate 1Cor13:5, "love does not demand its own way"?

Unfortunately, I can't help you understand anything... all I can do is to try and explain the wisdom I believe God has given me via study. As with Paul telling the Thessalonians, that they then need to examine everything and hold fast to that which is good. This is what I see.... That God is Love, and long-suffering, and patient, and kind, and merciful, and righteous, and holy, full of grace, and jealous, vengeful, and having wrath one day against all unrighteousness. That His will trumps man's. That He uses men to accomplish His will. That there is no plan B.

Personalizing this towards you, God loved you personally before you were born, purposely used the will of your mother and father for you to have your 1st birth, you then were born in sin, lived a time to the day you came to Him in faith using you own will, but His drawing you to the 2nd birth.... and that Love that He purposed for you is now realized by you with His Spirit with you today. Again, that's what I see as what happens, more or less.

And how does "chosen-before-love" fit with "the greatest commandment is that you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength"; why issue the command if our love is decided by God? (Matt22:37)

You keep apply God's instruct for man back to God Himself? Why do you do that? Not sure how old you are, but I have adult children, one being married... As I prayed for them to know Christ as their Savior, I am now praying for my future grandchildren, praying that they too would be saved if the Lord gives. You seem to think that I don't pray, or ask, or depend on the Lord... just to throw my hands up in the air and say... whatever. Not so... I have a calendar that I manage my work, I plan my events to do, and call upon the Lord for wisdom and understanding in faith and in life, probably just like you. But for me, I know that God is sovereign in all things, so I'm learning to stress less, learning to trust more, learning to be more dependent on Him than myself, know that that is His will.

Once a person is "chosen", do they have any other option BUT to "love God"? Isn't it irresistible?

Unfortunately your question doesn't understand what I have been declaring... Chosen, forced.... nothing at all like that.... If a man marries a woman, do they withhold intimacy with each other or does their nature change? The day you came to faith, did you stay the same or did you change? If you changed, then you should now understand my answer. And not sure why you are afraid of God's will behind your will, for wouldn't it be better to have God influence your life than sin? [rhetorically asked]

These questions will go far to helping me understand things about your position, that I've never been able to. Thanx in advance.

Gadgeteer, I'm not sure what it is you desire, to teach, to correct, or to understand? But for me, I hope my goal is clear, to love the Lord with all my heart and to love others more than myself... If you feel I have missed that with you, then my apologies... but truly God is so Big, that we all sometimes miss why we are together on this earth for a season.

Blessings....

[Christinme]

I'm holding back tears that are swelling in my eyes ... Your testamony and faith is more important than wondering if God loves all or a few to me ... I'll just say thank you and pray that God gives you more wisdom and understanding as you journey in your studies

Tears ran down my face last night when the silence broke and what was in my mind was "there is no love in me for such a God", by the time I came out and went on the computer to post I was more composed. However reading your response just brings tears running down my face again. My faith is intertwined with an understanding of God loves all ... so if what you say is true, woe is me. I am compelled to hold fast to a God that is good/loving to all, for if I abandon that I have nothing.

For the first few years when I became a believer I pretty much spent most of my time reading/studying the four gospels, that which I read that first night. I loved spending all that time with Jesus. It wasn't till years later that I really studied any of what Paul wrote. Jesus told many parables about the love of God and about the justice of God. I don't see a single parable that hints to that God created some to love and others to not love. If you can find one, I would appreciate you sharing it with me.

There is His declarative will, and His secretive will.

I think this is a part of this discussion does God love all. I think I would accurately describe this as God commands all to come, however He really only wants some, those who He has chosen to love, the rest are unloved. I apoligize if I haven't accurately portrayed this, I'm trying to be as short and concise with it as possible. It was 21 years after that night I came to believe when I was 23, before I ever heard of such a thing, as a matter of fact it was on this very same forum that I heard it for the first time. If such is His secretive will it was sure kept a secret from me for a very long time.

May it never be, for if such is His secretive will, woe is to me, for there is no love in me for such a God. Did God share with Abraham this secretive will of His, if so where? Did God share with Moses this secretive will of His, if so where? And I must ask those who have come to the "wisdom and understanding" of this secretive will of God, has God gave you His permission to share this secretive will of His???

[Redeemed by Grace]

Tears ran down my face last night when the silence broke and what was in my mind was "there is no love in me for such a God", by the time I came out and went on the computer to post I was more composed. However reading your response just brings tears running down my face again. My faith is intertwined with an understanding of God loves all ... so if what you say is true, woe is me. I am compelled to hold fast to a God that is good/loving to all, for if I abandon that I have nothing.

I agree that God is gracious to all CIM... And I'm not suggesting you change at all... The invitation of salvation, is open to all to receive. You having received it, should count it all joy.

For the first few years when I became a believer I pretty much spent most of my time reading/studying the four gospels, that which I read that first night. I loved spending all that time with Jesus. It wasn't till years later that I really studied any of what Paul wrote. Jesus told many parables about the love of God and about the justice of God. I don't see a single parable that hints to that God created some to love and others to not love. If you can find one, I would appreciate you sharing it with me.

I envy anyone who is multilingual for I assume that English is not you native language... You do well in speaking English, better grammatically than myself. What I think is lacking though is understanding my heart behind what I write, thus maybe misunderstanding what I am saying...? I'm not saying God hates. What I am saying is I am not convinced that God loves all folks equally... For if God loves you, then that love secures you, for there is nothing you would do that would stop that love.... for if your were the lost coin, He'd look for you. If you were the 100th sheep being lost, He'd come find you... When you are in His love, there is no escape. The prospect to reach others should be entrusted to God, knowing that He will do what is right within His will. Our understandings, whether we are wrong or right, don't have a bearing on God's will.... God's will be done whether we understand it or not, so to speak. So we preach the gospel to all men everywhere, trusting God will save those He saves.... for some plant, some water, but God gives the increase.

Repeating, the offer of His love through Jesus Christ is open to all men... However that Love manifests itself through Jesus Christ.... no man can come to the Father unless He comes through Jesus Christ. Thus in exaggeration, does God love the Hindu? If you say He does, then when does He stop loving them, for we are told that there is nothing that separates us from the love of God

Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


And thus notice, that the Love of God is through Christ Jesus our Lord. Thus the Love of God is in and thus through Jesus... Non-believers have the offer of God's love towards them, for sure, but until they believe, how can they have His love without being in Christ?

I think this is a part of this discussion does God love all. I think I would accurately describe this as God commands all to come, however He really only wants some, those who He has chosen to love, the rest are unloved.

Not what I have been saying... God does not chose, IMHO... He purposes. Salvation is not an elective process of God... To our eyes, as it should be, we 'come to Him' in faith, but we then study and learn that it was His divine purpose that we come to Him. All men are sinners. All men are under condemnation. All men deserve hell in judgment. However, God purposed good; He also purposed and allowed for evil towards the benefit of good, He purposes the whosoever[s] to faith in Jesus for His glory and honor.

I apoligize if I haven't accurately portrayed this, I'm trying to be as short and concise with it as possible. It was 21 years after that night I came to believe when I was 23, before I ever heard of such a thing, as a matter of fact it was on this very same forum that I heard it for the first time. If such is His secretive will it was sure kept a secret from me for a very long time.

CIM, please know that I am not the enemy of you or in what you believe... I'm just giving comment to the things I have studied over they years that detail what I believe God has graced me with. It's humbling as well as fearful as we grow in study, and please always check the scriptures on your own to make sure... So I am convinced and persuaded through the sum of scriptures as I know them today that God's invitation of Love is wide open, the Gospel is the way to Jesus. Jesus is the way to His love. Once in His love, there is no escape from it, the surety of being saved is confirmed. So it's hard for me to say that God loves every man the same, for that love that I see as declared within His word is enduring forever and ever, and there is nothing that will separate us from that love through Jesus Christ.

May it never be, for if such is His secretive will, woe is to me, for there is no love in me for such a God. Did God share with Abraham this secretive will of His, if so where? Did God share with Moses this secretive will of His, if so where? And I must ask those who have come to the "wisdom and understanding" of this secretive will of God, has God gave you His permission to share it???

My advice is not to worry about something not revealed... But will say that God has revealed His secretive will in the past, Look at the time of when prophecy was written and then to the time it was fulfilled. Before Isaiah wrote, no one knew that the Messiah would be born from a virgin, so up until that time of Isaiah, thus was kept by God under His secretive will, until He declares it. So I don't sense a need for woe if you are saved and I hope that you can see that it's not a negative of God that He doesn't declare everything about Himself, for man's mind just couldn't handle it.

Blessings...

[Gadgeteer]

On what basis does God have wrath? Does He decide beforehand whom He will love, and on whom He has wrath? And those on whom He has wrath --- does He still love them and desire for them to be saved?

Not sure that this a 'real' question, but will trust that it is...

It's a real question, "Redeemed". Reformed Thought is that God chose the few-elect before the Creation:

Eph4:1 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"...

How does this fit with God's love? Does He love only a FEW, or does He love everyone? Those who perish --- did he love them and want them saved?

I'll say it again, I see that God is not as man, thus He doesn't choose, He doesn't decide.... He wills; He purposes.... Within God's will, there are segments, as best as man can explain anyway.... There is His declarative will, and His secretive will. Hopefully self-explanatory.

No, it's not. Does God have more than one will, sometimes conflicted? Consider:

Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Do you see THREE wills here, "good" and "accetable/permissive" and "peffect"? I see only one will, which is good AND acceptable AND perfect. Now, I see different kinds of a will --- I perceive that "thelema" is more akin to "desire" (John6:40, the will of God is that all who see Jesus and believe be saved), and "boulema" is more "decree" (God does not will/decree any to perish but patiently waits for all to repent). But they are never in conflict; God does not desire something opposite to what He decrees.

I have not been arguing that God is not Love, for He is, what I have been challenging is the notion that He loves every man and woman equally....

Okay, flat out --- is God "LOVE", to those who perish? Can you answer this "yes" or "no"?

Unfortunately, I can't help you understand anything... all I can do is to try and explain the wisdom I believe God has given me via study.

It would go very far in helping me to understand your position, if you would cite the verses that you encountered on your journey.

As with Paul telling the Thessalonians, that they then need to examine everything and hold fast to that which is good. This is what I see.... That God is Love, and long-suffering, and patient, and kind, and merciful, and righteous, and holy, full of grace, and jealous, vengeful, and having wrath one day against all unrighteousness. That His will trumps man's. That He uses men to accomplish His will. That there is no plan B.

Then what was Jesus condemning in Matt11:21-24? Why would the current audience be judged harsher than the ancients?

Personalizing this towards you, God loved you personally before you were born, purposely used the will of your mother and father for you to have your 1st birth, you then were born in sin, lived a time to the day you came to Him in faith using you own will, but His drawing you to the 2nd birth.... and that Love that He purposed for you is now realized by you with His Spirit with you today. Again, that's what I see as what happens, more or less.

Okay --- but do you perceive that very love is limited? Is it available to every last person?

And how does "chosen-before-love" fit with "the greatest commandment is that you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your mind and all your strength"; why issue the command if our love is decided by God? (Matt22:37)

You keep apply God's instruct for man back to God Himself? Why do you do that? Not sure how old you are, but I have adult children, one being married... As I prayed for them to know Christ as their Savior, I am now praying for my future grandchildren, praying that they too would be saved if the Lord gives. You seem to think that I don't pray, or ask, or depend on the Lord... just to throw my hands up in the air and say... whatever. Not so... I have a calendar that I manage my work, I plan my events to do, and call upon the Lord for wisdom and understanding in faith and in life, probably just like you. But for me, I know that God is sovereign in all things, so I'm learning to stress less, learning to trust more, learning to be more dependent on Him than myself, know that that is His will.

No, you miss my point. God is love, and His greatest commandment is for men to love Him. What about men who perish --- they lvoed sin and not God. Why? Did He love them the same as those who receive eternal life, or not? If "not", then why not?

Once a person is "chosen", do they have any other option BUT to "love God"? Isn't it irresistible?

Unfortunately your question doesn't understand what I have been declaring... Chosen, forced.... nothing at all like that.... If a man marries a woman, do they withhold intimacy with each other or does their nature change?

That's quite different than "Reformed". Under "monergistic regeneration", a heart is changed before (apart from) belief, and then belief and love-for-God are irresistible. Your question is much closer to how I understand Scripture, not the Reformed view.

The day you came to faith, did you stay the same or did you change?

I changed --- and that's the point. The love between a man and a woman is not "indwelt"; Christian salvation is. The Spirit regenerates the heart. If this is before belief, then the heart irresistibly loves God. But if regeneration is after belief, then "love" is a full and constant choice. Can you deny this?

If you changed, then you should now understand my answer. And not sure why you are afraid of God's will behind your will, for wouldn't it be better to have God influence your life than sin? [rhetorically asked]

I don't underand how you understand it. I think part of you is recognizing that "love cannot be ordained", and it's giving you some great conflicts. I wonder how you will resolve them?

Gadgeteer, I'm not sure what it is you desire, to teach, to correct, or to understand? But for me, I hope my goal is clear, to love the Lord with all my heart and to love others more than myself...

All of that. And to embody Titus1:7-9 and 2:8-9; and 1Jn4:16-21.

If you feel I have missed that with you...

Clearly, _I_ have missed that with you at times, and it was never my intent; I apreciate that you're willing to still discourse, that I may learn better communication.

then my apologies... but truly God is so Big, that we all sometimes miss why we are together on this earth for a season.

We are here for His glory, and to love each other and fellowship together in Him. Towards that, we seek to be mature, to learn the uncomplicated doctrine of Christ, that we may be His healing to a lost and dying world. That we grow stronger together, and more equipped for His great harvest. All of that, and more.

Blessings....

And to you.

:-)

[Redeemed by Grace]

It's a real question, "Redeemed". Reformed Thought is that God chose the few-elect before the Creation:

Eph4:1 "just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
Eph 1:5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"...

How does this fit with God's love? Does He love only a FEW, or does He love everyone? Those who perish --- did he love them and want them saved? No, it's not. Does God have more than one will, sometimes conflicted? Consider:

Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Do you see THREE wills here, "good" and "accetable/permissive" and "peffect"? I see only one will, which is good AND acceptable AND perfect. Now, I see different kinds of a will --- I perceive that "thelema" is more akin to "desire" (John6:40, the will of God is that all who see Jesus and believe be saved), and "boulema" is more "decree" (God does not will/decree any to perish but patiently waits for all to repent). But they are never in conflict; God does not desire something opposite to what He decrees. Okay, flat out --- is God "LOVE", to those who perish? Can you answer this "yes" or "no"?
It would go very far in helping me to understand your position, if you would cite the verses that you encountered on your journey. Then what was Jesus condemning in Matt11:21-24? Why would the current audience be judged harsher than the ancients?
Okay --- but do you perceive that very love is limited? Is it available to every last person?
No, you miss my point. God is love, and His greatest commandment is for men to love Him. What about men who perish --- they lvoed sin and not God. Why? Did He love them the same as those who receive eternal life, or not? If "not", then why not?
That's quite different than "Reformed". Under "monergistic regeneration", a heart is changed before (apart from) belief, and then belief and love-for-God are irresistible. Your question is much closer to how I understand Scripture, not the Reformed view. I changed --- and that's the point. The love between a man and a woman is not "indwelt"; Christian salvation is. The Spirit regenerates the heart. If this is before belief, then the heart irresistibly loves God. But if regeneration is after belief, then "love" is a full and constant choice. Can you deny this? I don't underand how you understand it. I think part of you is recognizing that "love cannot be ordained", and it's giving you some great conflicts. I wonder how you will resolve them?
All of that. And to embody Titus1:7-9 and 2:8-9; and 1Jn4:16-21. Clearly, _I_ have missed that with you at times, and it was never my intent; I apreciate that you're willing to still discourse, that I may learn better communication. We are here for His glory, and to love each other and fellowship together in Him. Towards that, we seek to be mature, to learn the uncomplicated doctrine of Christ, that we may be His healing to a lost and dying world. That we grow stronger together, and more equipped for His great harvest. All of that, and more.
And to you.

:-)

Gadgeteer... I'm old school in that I search for common ground to first establish a relationship to which to build from... You are going tit-for-tat line by line against everything I post, so I must ask, do you see any doctrinal position's that we have in common? I don't think there is, but on this point show me where we are together.

[Christinme]

I envy anyone who is multilingual for I assume that English is not you native language

Although I am multilingual, English is my native language. My nationality is American however I have lived here in Belgium for almost 15 years now. Just to clear that up.

please always check the scriptures on your own to make sure

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good

Hold fast to that which is good. Just a few sentences up scripture says:

1 Thessalonians 5:15 ... always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.

I have to believe that God does good for all people ... however we want to word the word "does". And this for me is one of those things that I am compelled to hold fast to.

So I am convinced and persuaded through the sum of scriptures as I know them today that God's invitation of Love is wide open, the Gospel is the way to Jesus. Jesus is the way to His love. Once in His love, there is no escape from it, the surety of being saved is confirmed. So it's hard for me to say that God loves every man the same, for that love that I see as declared within His word is enduring forever and ever, and there is nothing that will separate us from that love through Jesus Christ.

And I have a slightly different understanding that I am convinced and persuaded through the sum of scriptures as I know them today that does not make it hard for me to say that God loves every man the same. And I'm going to try to touch on some of it here now also. God's invitation of eternal life is wide open, the Gospel is the way to Jesus. Jesus is the way to eternal life. Once in Jesus we are able to experience His love to the fullest, there is no escape from it, the surety of being saved is confirmed. Of course there are other differences of our understanding, between both yours and mine which bring us to different conclusions about whether we can say God loves every man the same.

I thank God that He has allowed me to share to a certain extent how important it is to me to understand that God loves all. Having such "knowledge" ... allows me to fully bask in His love, share His love, serve others with love. It gives me confidence that He is just and righteous. It provides peace of mind and it allows me to just put my trust in Him. There is never any doubt that He loves me, of course He does He loves all. And all this I received through our Lord Jesus Christ. No tears this time.

[Gadgeteer]

Gadgeteer... I'm old school in that I search for common ground to first establish a relationship to which to build from... You are going tit-for-tat line by line against everything I post, so I must ask, do you see any doctrinal positions that we have in common? I don't think there is, but on this point show me where we are together.

Not wanting to derail the thread, so briefly --- you and I believe Jesus is God, no beginning, and salvation is by grace through faith. It is an "indwelt fellowship of love", embodying Gal2:20 (Jesus inside), and Eph5:18 (Spirit inside). The Spirit makes our hearts new. Salvation is a gift, unearned and unmerited, nothing of ourselves, done sufficient and complete on the Cross --- we add nothing to it. We cannot walk in sin, for that would be to make Jesus and the Spirit participate in sin. Our differences are that you place "regeneration" before "belief" and monergistic/unilateral, therefore what God hath wrought no man can thwart.

In keeping with the thread, we are struggling to understand "Love" in God's paradigm. Does God love even those who perish? And if He does not love the majority ("not all men have faith"), then how can 1Jn4:16 assert "God is love"? He would therefore not be "love" for the majority.

And --- how would monergistic regeneration (which makes man's response of love towards God consequential and irresistible to His regenerative-action) --- how would that fit with the definition of love? Specifically, "Love does not demand its own way" (1Cor13:5)?

Does God love all men, or does He love a few and hate the rest (did He create them to be sinful and to be hated)?

[Gadgeteer]

Although I am multilingual, English is my native language. My nationality is American however I have lived here in Belgium for almost 15 years now. Just to clear that up.

Tell me --- does the "Atomium" still exist? It was prominent in the 1958 World's Fair...

1 Thessalonians 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good

Hold fast to that which is good. Just a few sentences up scripture says:

1 Thessalonians 5:15 ... always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.

I have to believe that God does good for all people ... however we want to word the word "does". And this for me is one of those things that I am compelled to hold fast to.


And I have a slightly different understanding that I am convinced and persuaded through the sum of scriptures as I know them today that does not make it hard for me to say that God loves every man the same. And I'm going to try to touch on some of it here now also. God's invitation of eternal life is wide open, the Gospel is the way to Jesus. Jesus is the way to eternal life. Once in Jesus we are able to experience His love to the fullest, there is no escape from it, the surety of being saved is confirmed. Of course there are other differences of our understanding, between both yours and mine which bring us to different conclusions about whether we can say God loves every man the same.

I thank God that He has allowed me to share to a certain extent how important it is to me to understand that God loves all. Having such "knowledge" ... allows me to fully bask in His love, share His love, serve others with love. It gives me confidence that He is just and righteous. It provides peace of mind and it allows me to just put my trust in Him. There is never any doubt that He loves me, of course He does He loves all. And all this I received through our Lord Jesus Christ. No tears this time.

Keeping with "God's invitation and love are wide open" --- have you seen the discussion of Deuteronomy30:11-20, Romans10:8-10, and Acts17:26-31? Do you think that would be beneficial to this thread?

:-)

[Redeemed by Grace]

Not wanting to derail the thread, so briefly --- you and I believe Jesus is God, no beginning, and salvation is by grace through faith. It is an "indwelt fellowship of love", embodying Gal2:20 (Jesus inside), and Eph5:18 (Spirit inside). The Spirit makes our hearts new. Salvation is a gift, unearned and unmerited, nothing of ourselves, done sufficient and complete on the Cross --- we add nothing to it. We cannot walk in sin, for that would be to make Jesus and the Spirit participate in sin. Our differences are that you place "regeneration" before "belief" and monergistic/unilateral, therefore what God hath wrought no man can thwart.

In keeping with the thread, we are struggling to understand "Love" in God's paradigm. Does God love even those who perish? And if He does not love the majority ("not all men have faith"), then how can 1Jn4:16 assert "God is love"? He would therefore not be "love" for the majority.

And --- how would monergistic regeneration (which makes man's response of love towards God consequential and irresistible to His regenerative-action) --- how would that fit with the definition of love? Specifically, "Love does not demand its own way" (1Cor13:5)?

Does God love all men, or does He love a few and hate the rest (did He create them to be sinful and to be hated)?

Briefly... yes I like briefly...

I'd say that God's love is invitational to all men everywhere, thus the command to preach the Gospel to all the world, but is conditional as to all who will believe.

The commitment of God towards the believer is enduring... Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.... and it is through Jesus Christ. Those without Christ have the invitation to believe thus the condition of God's love waits for them.

You naturally use the word hate and ascribe that to pose as my reply, for which is the opposite of love I suppose... We know that God hates sin, being that God is also long suffering -- wanting that all should repent and believe, it be hard to declare what God's love for a believer in His Son is the same love for non-believers. If God indeed loves the non-believer as a believer, that love has to be different from the love He has for those in Christ. God extend His mercy and blessings on all folks, just as it rains. But through His grace by faith, He has purposed a people for Himself.

But if you say that God gives every man the same love He gave His son and believers, and if you still say that it's up to man to decide, when this man rejects the gospel, satisfied that he has rejected Jesus, will still be condemned to hell and in death, will be without Jesus.. When then did Jesus stop loving them? Yet if he is loved by God... as you say just like a believer ...and as God has declared there is nothing that can separate [believers from] the love of God -- then this action thus separates Him from that love and thus in Hell, he is removed from God's love, which remember never changes, but somehow by this man's choice, it changes.... which contradicts Romans 3: 28,39. And I will hold back from introducing Romans 9:19-25 for now.

[Christinme]

All I'm not really wanting this thread to derail into a discussion over how one comes to faith.

[Christinme]

RbG,

Although you didn't comment on it I'm assuming you read my post #127 to you.

it be hard to declare what God's love for a believer in His Son is the same love for non-believers. If God indeed loves the non-believer as a believer, that love has to be different from the love He has for those in Christ.

When you state things like this it is where I get confused. You speak about non-believer then believer ... those in Christ and those not in Christ. I do believer there are these two distinct groups of people. And forgive me again if I'm not presenting this properly, it appears you are saying there are really 3 groups of people. There is some non-believers who God does not love the same as believers and there are some non-believers who God does love the same as believers (i.e. those who will eventually believe in this life) and then there are believers. It's appears like you are saying God never really views those who are non believers who will eventually believe in this life as non believers. That when I was a non believer in God's eyes I was really a believer. Again forgive me if I'm misrepresenting this but in my simple mind that is how it is being interpreted. I still don't understand this how when I was an unbeliever God did still have the same love for me as He has for believers, but for some unbelievers He doesn't.

I know He loved me when I was an unbeliever, I think we agree that is clearly stated in scripture. I don't think He loves me more now or loves me different now then He loved me when I was an unbeliever and I think we agree that is clearly stated in scripture (or I don't know maybe we don't agree here). And yes we are His covenant people, I don't see where that should lead us to that God loves us more or different than His noncovenant people. And if we look at Romans 9 we can see the chapter is dealing with the Jew/Gentile question. The Jews were His covenant people ... and it appears they had an attitude of hey God you love us you can't love those Gentiles also or you can't love them the same as us because we are your covenant people. There was an understanding among some of them that God loved them different than those who were not His people, i.e. the Gentiles. And in Romans 9 Paul is writing to dispell this notion. So I don't see how Romans 9 can be a support for any proof that God loves us different than He loves others. And I've given you earlier my understanding of the vessel of mercy and vessel of wrath made out of the same lump of clay. Like I said Romans 9 (including those surrounding it) could be a thread of it's own.

[Christinme]

I am starting a new thread titled "light of the world", to me this is related.

http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...t-of-the-world

[Christinme]

Tell me --- does the "Atomium" still exist? It was prominent in the 1958 World's Fair...

Yes the Atonium is still here, lol.

Keeping with "God's invitation and love are wide open" --- have you seen the discussion of Deuteronomy30:11-20, Romans10:8-10, and Acts17:26-31? Do you think that would be beneficial to this thread?

No I haven't really followed those discussions. Sorry.

[Redeemed by Grace]

RbG,

Although you didn't comment on it I'm assuming you read my post #127 to you.

When you state things like this it is where I get confused. You speak about non-believer then believer ... those in Christ and those not in Christ. I do believer there are these two distinct groups of people. And forgive me again if I'm not presenting this properly, it appears you are saying there are really 3 groups of people. There is some non-believers who God does not love the same as believers and there are some non-believers who God does love the same as believers (i.e. those who will eventually believe in this life) and then there are believers. It's appears like you are saying God never really views those who are non believers who will eventually believe in this life as non believers. That when I was a non believer in God's eyes I was really a believer. Again forgive me if I'm misrepresenting this but in my simple mind that is how it is being interpreted. I still don't understand this how when I was an unbeliever God did still have the same love for me as He has for believers, but for some unbelievers He doesn't.

Yes... Exactly!

I know He loved me when I was an unbeliever, I think we agree that is clearly stated in scripture. I don't think He loves me more now or loves me different now then He loved me when I was an unbeliever and I think we agree that is clearly stated in scripture (or I don't know maybe we don't agree here).

God always has His view [read will] into the future, so yet while you were a sinner, His love for you was seen through Jesus before you were born, and you caught up to that view so to speak, when you stated in Faith, I believe that day in 19xx. Thus the same love of God was always towards you, only you realized it after your were 'born again'.

And yes we are His covenant people, I don't see where that should lead us to that God loves us more or different than His noncovenant people.

Then here is another point of difference between us... For if God loves all - meaning everyone from everywhere the same, then there is really no need for God to send His Son.... For God expresses His love for us [read believers] through Jesus Christ....

Romans 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Now I would also state that God is long-suffering, not willing that any should die in sin, and that He blesses sinner and saved in daily life as like rain falling to the ground.... He gives man every opportunity to repent and believe, and as Romans 1-3 declares man still rebels.

And if we look at Romans 9 we can see the chapter is dealing with the Jew/Gentile question. The Jews were His covenant people ... and it appears they had an attitude of hey God you love us you can't love those Gentiles also or you can't love them the same as us because we are your covenant people. There was an understanding among some of them that God loved them different than those who were not His people, i.e. the Gentiles. And in Romans 9 Paul is writing to dispell this notion. So I don't see how Romans 9 can be a support for any proof that God loves us different than He loves others. And I've given you earlier my understanding of the vessel of mercy and vessel of wrath made out of the same lump of clay. Like I said Romans 9 (including those surrounding it) could be a thread of it's own.

Paul writes to this blended church of Rome many doctrines that they missed when they all were forced to scatter from Jerusalem, thus a church started without apostolic teaching, thus Paul's reason for writing as well as his strong desire to visit. [Remember, this church had 'saved' Jews and 'saved' Gentiles]. The doctrine of election and predestination is the strongest here of all of Paul's writings, probably because the other churches understood this more, again from the 1st handed teaching of the Apostles.

Romans 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,
"I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,'
AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
26 "AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, 'YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,'
THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

Clearly Paul is using the question not as a point of possibility, but the question as a point of emphasis... in sort of a sells tact used by many folks to convey a truth... I.e, if this soap can not only clean walls, but is mild enough that you can wash your hair with it, then will you buy it? The example is absurd, I know, but it's to show the type of speech Paul was using to make his point.

Asked as a question, he is actually making a statement but gives this audience a time to understand it for themselves: What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so [There... Paul just confirmed his question his readers that it is so]to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. All facts, presented in a way to get the reader to find agreement. God expressing His patience, but will also express His judgement, to the benefit towards those vessels of mercy.

Today is a heavy travel day for me so I will be gone most of the day...