God loves all

[Redeemed by Grace]

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him. 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him....

I would differ with your understanding here Mark, verse 23 states emphatically If Anyone loves Me [Jesus], [that] he will keep My [Jesus'] word and My Father [God] will love him... and will live within him.... There's the condition once again....

[Slug1]

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,

How is a Christian to love in the example of scripture above if God Himself CAN'T love until a person shows Him love first?

[Brother Mark]

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him. 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him....

I would differ with your understanding here Mark, verse 23 states emphatically If Anyone loves Me [Jesus], [that] he will keep My [Jesus'] word and My Father [God] will love him... and will live within him.... There's the condition once again....

If the condition is as you state, then how is it that Jesus loved you before you loved him?

If the condition is that you must love him and keep his commandments to be loved, did he love you before you did this or after you did this?

Context is everything. He said John 14 to believers. Perhaps their remaining in his love is conditional along with being intimate and having Jesus disclose himself to a believer.

He said John 3:16 to unbelievers.

Show me a verse where God states he does not love someone. Just one.

John 3:16 is broad. Why would we make it narrow when God specifically made a choice to use a broad word.

And as Slug mentioned above, and others have mentioned in this thread, does God love his enemies?

So far, you have not given one verse that states God does not love his enemies or the ungodly or the unelect.

[Slug1]

I would differ with your understanding here Mark, verse 23 states emphatically If Anyone loves Me [Jesus], [that] he will keep My [Jesus'] word and My Father [God] will love him... and will live within him.... There's the condition once again....

Verse 21/23 shows us that God's love "will be" made manifest "to" any who loves in return. It don't mean He don't have love for them. The scriptures show us that once love is returned then ALL God has to offer (living within a person, eternal life, etc) is now possible. The LOVE is always there... the eternal relationship isn't until love is returned to God and relationship has begun. God's love doesn't BEGIN with us loving Him FIRST. Jesus would have never been sacrificed if WE had to love Him first for Him to love us.

To even think that God's love isn't there until AFTER we love Him is counter to scripture.

1 John 4:¹⁹ We love Him because He first loved us.

We CAN'T love God without the fact that He LOVED us all first... so to say that UNTIL we love Him, He don't have love for us... counters the scriptural context of His love.

[Christinme]

I still see the conflict between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent

Maybe further explaination of this can better help me understand where you are coming from. Do you think some unbelievers are "seed of the woman" and some are "seed of the serpent"?

[Redeemed by Grace]

Maybe further explaination of this can better help me understand where you are coming from. Do you think some unbelievers are "seed of the woman" and some are "seed of the serpent"?

Simply the Wheat and the Chaff.

[Christinme]

I still see the conflict between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent

Maybe further explaination of this can better help me understand where you are coming from. Do you think some unbelievers are "seed of the woman" and some are "seed of the serpent"?

Simply the Wheat and the Chaff.

Are you speaking about this parable?

Matthew 13:24-30 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ But he said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”

[Brother Mark]

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him. 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him....

I would differ with your understanding here Mark, verse 23 states emphatically If Anyone loves Me [Jesus], [that] he will keep My [Jesus'] word and My Father [God] will love him... and will live within him.... There's the condition once again....

I ask again RGB. If the condition is as you state, how is it that God loved you before you loved God?

[keyzer soze]

I ask again RGB. If the condition is as you state, how is it that God loved you before you loved God?

God lives outside of time thus this wouldn't be an issue IMO. Note, not taking sides here, simply making a point that since God is outside of time, I believe that if it is like RbG says, then that would not be an issue because we are elected before the foundation of the earth.

[Brother Mark]

God lives outside of time thus this wouldn't be an issue IMO. Note, not taking sides here, simply making a point that since God is outside of time, I believe that if it is like RbG says, then that would not be an issue because we are elected before the foundation of the earth.

That's philosophy KS not theology. If it is conditional, then the love cannot be given BEFORE it is received. What RGB is suggesting is that God is saying to those of us INSIDE time, that in order for God to love them, they must first love him. It doesn't fit with scripture. What does fit with scripture is that saved men cannot be separated from God's love by the things mentioned in Romans 8.

Even, so if it is like you say, then God loved those that did not love him first, as is stated in 1 John. Thus making it impossible that love is conditional for what condition can be placed upon one who does not exist?

Thing is, when God said John 3:16, he said it to a lost man. When God was warning people about God loving those that love him back, he was preaching to saved people.

He is saying that God loves those that love Him. But scripture teaches just the opposite. That's why what RGB is saying is false and unbiblical. It is why he has to say things like world means God's creation but excludes people that God made.

We have to ignore a LOT of plane spoke scripture to teach that God does not love the lost.

John states that God is love. What is being suggested in the this thread is that Love does not love. It's a wildly contradictory doctrine.

Is it possible that Love, does not love?

[keyzer soze]

That's philosophy KS not theology. If it is conditional, then the love cannot be given BEFORE it is received. What RGB is suggesting is that God is saying to those of us INSIDE time, that in order for God to love them, they must first love him. It doesn't fit with scripture. What does fit with scripture is that saved men cannot be separated from God's love by the things mentioned in Romans 8.

Even, so if it is like you say, then God loved those that did not love him first, as is stated in 1 John. Thus making it impossible that love is conditional for what condition can be placed upon one who does not exist?

Thing is, when God said John 3:16, he said it to a lost man. When God was warning people about God loving those that love him back, he was preaching to saved people.

He is saying that God loves those that love Him. But scripture teaches just the opposite. That's why what RGB is saying is false and unbiblical. It is why he has to say things like world means God's creation but excludes people that God made.

We have to ignore a LOT of plane spoke scripture to teach that God does not love the lost.

John states that God is love. What is being suggested in the this thread is that Love does not love. It's a wildly contradictory doctrine.

Is it possible that Love, does not love?

I have been attempting to stay clear of this thread since it is pretty similar to the other but didn't you claim somewhere in here that you didn't think God loved people once they were in hell? Perhaps I am wrong, but if that is the case wouldn't your final question to me above run into the same problem? Then factor in that God is outside of time and I believe the reality of souls in hell in our future are just as real to Him now as it will be to us in the future. Therefore if God does not love those in hell, which I thought you claimed if not just ignore this post, then I am not sure our timelines matter to God.

Just assume God does not love someone in hell and sees that person only for their sins... wouldn't that be like you knowing someone down the road is going to shoot your Mom but you trying to love her now and up until she does shoot your Mom? I mean, if you know the future as fact, then I think it makes things too challenging for us to understand everything.

Please recognize that when I did post in this thread a few pages back, I do think that Jesus loves all in such a way that I can witness to any non saved person and tell them that God loves them. So I am not trying to claim that God doesn't love all. But I am saying that if you are right (which I am pretty sure you claimed earlier) that God's love is cut off when someone goes to hell, then that can be as real to God "NOW" as it will be to us in the future. After all, when Christ was on the cross dieing for sins I believe God knew every sinner that Christ was suffering for real time.

Just something to think about, not claiming any hard theology here being that I know I don't get this.

[Brother Mark]

I have been attempting to stay clear of this thread since it is pretty similar to the other but didn't you claim somewhere in here that you didn't think God loved people once they were in hell?

That question has been asked of me multiple times and it is quite possible that I speculated that. However, my official position is that they are separated from His love if they go to hell, and are instead under judgement. For if a man rejects love and mercy, what is left other than judgment? Does scripture speak about when love stops? If it doesn't, then maybe I shouldn't either.

Perhaps I am wrong, but if that is the case wouldn't your final question to me above run into the same problem?

My question stands. (See above explanation.) Can Love not love?

Then factor in that God is outside of time and I believe the reality of souls in hell in our future are just as real to Him now as it will be to us in the future. Therefore if God does not love those in hell, which I thought you claimed if not just ignore this post, then I am not sure our timelines matter to God.

OK.

Just assume God does not love someone in hell and sees that person only for their sins...

Why would I assume that?

wouldn't that be like you knowing someone down the road is going to shoot your Mom but you trying to love her now and up until she does shoot your Mom? I mean, if you know the future as fact, then I think it makes things too challenging for us to understand everything.

I have no problem with mystery. What I have a problem with is us moving the mystery sssssooooo far that we have to challenge plain spoken scripture. Why not believe what scripture states and leave mystery where scripture leaves it?

Please recognize that when I did post in this thread a few pages back, I do think that Jesus loves all in such a way that I can witness to any non saved person and tell them that God loves them. So I am not trying to claim that God doesn't love all. But I am saying that if you are right (which I am pretty sure you claimed earlier) that God's love is cut off when someone goes to hell, then that can be as real to God "NOW" as it will be to us in the future. After all, when Christ was on the cross dieing for sins I believe God knew every sinner that Christ was suffering for real time.

Why not keep it simple, then it becomes an issue of faith. Do we believe what is written or do we need to change what is written in order to make it say what we want to believe?

What we are promised is that believers cannot be separated from God's love. That promise is not made to those that go to hell. The implication is that not lost can be separated from His love. But then, that is not freely spoken in the word.

Thing is, when witnessing, can we look someone in the eye and say "God loved you so much, that he sent Jesus to die for your sins?" If so, then we are on the same page.

Just something to think about, not claiming any hard theology here being that I know I don't get this.

I have stated before and will state again, there's safety, IMO, about not getting something. It's when we try to shoehorn scripture into our understanding, or in order to make scripture say something we think we understand that we get into trouble.

Jesus said he was sent because God loved the world. Why not believe that? 1 John states that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and for the sins of the whole world. Why not believe that?

I think the answer is, if we believe those things, it may impacts other doctrines that we might hold dear. Better to say "I don't know" than to explain away scripture.

[keyzer soze]

That question has been asked of me multiple times and it is quite possible that I speculated that. However, my official position is that they are separated from His love if they go to hell, and are instead under judgement. For if a man rejects love and mercy, what is left other than judgment? Does scripture speak about when love stops? If it doesn't, then maybe I shouldn't either.



My question stands. (See above explanation.) Can Love not love?



OK.



Why would I assume that?



I have no problem with mystery. What I have a problem with is us moving the mystery sssssooooo far that we have to challenge plain spoken scripture. Why not believe what scripture states and leave mystery where scripture leaves it?



Why not keep it simple, then it becomes an issue of faith. Do we believe what is written or do we need to change what is written in order to make it say what we want to believe?

What we are promised is that believers cannot be separated from God's love. That promise is not made to those that go to hell. The implication is that not lost can be separated from His love. But then, that is not freely spoken in the word.

Thing is, when witnessing, can we look someone in the eye and say "God loved you so much, that he sent Jesus to die for your sins?" If so, then we are on the same page.



I have stated before and will state again, there's safety, IMO, about not getting something. It's when we try to shoehorn scripture into our understanding, or in order to make scripture say something we think we understand that we get into trouble.

Jesus said he was sent because God loved the world. Why not believe that? 1 John states that Jesus is the propitiation for our sins and for the sins of the whole world. Why not believe that?

I think the answer is, if we believe those things, it may impacts other doctrines that we might hold dear. Better to say "I don't know" than to explain away scripture.

Good post, I agree with you. I have agreed with you so much in the past that it doesn't allow me to rep you! LOL

As for who's sins did Christ die for I think the confusion comes in (at least it did for me) as to how they are applied or how does the atonement work. I use to think that there was a substitutionary atonement, meaning Jesus was paying for my sins in a personal matter. If that is the case then I don't believe Jesus died for all sinners because all sin would be paid for and no one would go to hell. However, I no longer believe in substitutionary atonement on a personal level for sins which has now allowed my theology to believe that Jesus died for all, offering everyone a "sin covering" so to speak instead of sin substitution.

Anyways, this is deep stuff and no matter how you process it, it is difficult to imagine how an all powerful loving God can allow people to spend eternity in hell.

[Gadgeteer]

John 14:18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 After a little while the world will no longer see Me, but you will see Me; because I live, you will live also. 20 In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him. 22 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world? 23 Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him....

I would differ with your understanding here Mark, verse 23 states emphatically If Anyone loves Me [Jesus], [that] he will keep My [Jesus'] word and My Father [God] will love him... and will live within him.... There's the condition once again....

Hi, "Redeemed". You quote verses that say, "He who loves Me", and "If anyone loves Me" --- is there any personal choice in that?

It reminds me of John7:17, "if anyone is willing to do My will", and John15:14 "You are My friends if you do what I command".

In all of these, do you see God loving everyone and giving them the choice to love them back? Or do you see God loving only SOME (and those irresistibly love Him back)?

As the police chief said when they arrested one of the identical-twin-sorceresses,
"Which witch is which???"

[Gadgeteer]

Verse 21/23 shows us that God's love "will be" made manifest "to" any who loves in return. It doesn't mean He doesn't have love for them. The scriptures show us that once love is returned then ALL God has to offer (living within a person, eternal life, etc) is now possible. The LOVE is always there... the eternal relationship isn't until love is returned to God and relationship has begun. God's love doesn't BEGIN with us loving Him FIRST. Jesus would have never been sacrificed if WE had to love Him first for Him to love us.

To even think that God's love isn't there until AFTER we love Him is counter to scripture.

1 John 4:¹⁹ We love Him because He first loved us.

We CAN'T love God without the fact that He LOVED us all first... so to say that UNTIL we love Him, He don't have love for us... counters the scriptural context of His love.

I've talked with Reformed Theology people who assert that "we-few-elect MUST (irresistibly) love God, because God loved us-few first".