God loves all

[Brother Mark]

This is first time this has been brought into this thread and I think it is relevant. Jesus had his harshes words to the religious leaders. Paul is mostly dealing with growing up believers.

And I think this was already mentioned in this thread but was not addressed by anyone:

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

It seems the "us" is believers and the "their" and the ''them" is unbelievers. God is not counting their trespasses against them. I talk about this more in one of my posts on the second page of "Light/light of the world".

Let me say, I have not studied out the passage you quote. But it does seem to fit well with

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU

Men go to hell because of unbelief.

That said, the scripture where Jesus speaks harshly to the pharisees and scribes about putting burdens on men they will not help, shows us the heart and character of God.

[Redeemed by Grace]

Is it open to those that don't hear the gospel?

I'm sure God works His will, so it is a good question... but the commission is to go to all the ends of the world and preach, so trust that we are doing our part to that end.

I agree with this. We are instructed to love all men because God loves all men and as a witness that God loves all men. Right?

I have no problem in presenting the gospel with a comment something like "...but God, seeing you in your sin, loved you to send His Son......" So if it's delivered within the Gospel, then yes, I agree to the audience that I'd say He loves you enough to reach out to you to save you.

And for CIM... The group = individually accountable.

[Christinme]

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Let me say, I have not studied out the passage you quote. But it does seem to fit well with

1 John 2:2
2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
NASU

Yes it does fit very well with this.

[Christinme]

I have no problem in presenting the gospel with a comment something like "...but God, seeing you in your sin, loved you to send His Son......" So if it's delivered within the Gospel, the yes, I agree to the audience that I'd say He loves you enough to reach out to you to save you.

I'm not trying to be nit picky here but am asking to more understand where you are coming from ... you say you would agree to the audience, so are you saying you would say this to a group, but not an individual?

[Redeemed by Grace]

Here's the thing RGB, you speak of differences based on covenant and relationship. I agree that covenant and relationship matter when it comes to how we experience love. That doesn't mean that God loves differently.

Sure it does... Didn't Jesus love John in a different way He loved, say Peter?

It means that covenant and relationship help us experience it more fully.

I see that it's your desire to see that.... Our reaction comes when He loves us personally.... There is no way you can tell me that you loved your wife before you were introduced to her... And I'll venture to say that it took a few interactions on your part for her to fall in love with you... I share this to say love comes from relationship, no relationship, no love... God sent His Son to build a relationship with the Jews, then when they rejected Him, then the rest of the tongues and tribes of the world... Not in total, but individually.

A father has two sons. One stays in his love and the other leaves. He loves both the same. But the one who stays in relationship experiences all the benefits of that love. The one who leaves, doesn't have the same experiences and promises and benefits of the love of the father. Same love but different fulfillment based entirely on the status/health of the relationship.

Exactly.... it began in relationship... That father can't love a son he never had, but if/when son three comes, he will love that child all the same.

For instance, Romans 8 shows how those in covenant with God cannot be separated from His love. However, it does not say that love is different than the love expressed in John 3:16. Nor does it say that the love in Romans 8 is different than how God loves His enemies.

We have different hermeneutics I supposes. For John 3:16 is conditional,. Romans 8 in unconditional.

Does God walk by the man laying on the road? Or is he the Samaritan that helps?

Funny you should use this as an example... My wife and I were on our way to a wedding this Saturday and as we were driving down the road, we turned the bend to see a man and his wife who just dump his motorcycle at the bend when he missed the curve because of some gravel on the road from a drive way... I stopped and help them get up from under the bike as well as help them up right the bike... The man was so surprised that I stopped to help him.

Now... how do you want to look at this? That because of the love of God that is within me, I offered this couple assistance when I saw their needs and sacrificed my time and clothes to pick up an 850lb bike off them... or that God used me to give them His love through me to help them in their time of need? I'd say both would be true to me, Now, I don't think they were saved, but they were grateful that I came by when I did. Yet this love is not saving love but temporal love that I shared with them... Had I been thinking, I would have also shared the gospel with them, for let's say they were not believers at the time and I gave them the gospel to hear, if they would have responded, then the love of Christ will then reside within them, just as it does within us. However, maybe this is there beginning of the coming of faith towards them, through and effort of a stranger motivated by He who is within me to love on them in their time of need. [BTW... they were just shaken and not hurt and were able to ride the bike back home.]

Does God lift a finger to help relieve the burdens he places on man? Or does he do as the lawyers and pharisees and not grant any help at all?

Matt 23:1-4

23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: " The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 " They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
NASU

Does God do according to the deeds of the scribes and Pharisees? Will he place a burden of belief upon a man but then not help that man believe?

Sorry, but I don't see how this fits?

[Redeemed by Grace]

I'm not trying to be nit picky here but am asking to more understand where you are coming from ... you say you would agree to the audience, so are you saying you would say this to a group, but not an individual?

Hi CIM,


I see you are reading it a bit literal... individually and as to the group... So If I am witnessing to one or to many, it would fair to say God loves you within the Gospel presentation... For the gospel judges but also restores and the offer of God's love is right there before them... So in presenting the Gospel to a group of 10, per se, I personalize it to the individual as I declare it to the masses.

[Brother Mark]

Sure it does... Didn't Jesus love John in a different way He loved, say Peter?

No. John was just more fully aware of the love Jesus had for him.

I see that it's your desire to see that....

On the contrary! My seeing it led to my desire. But we can agree it's your desire to see love as different.

Our reaction comes when He loves us personally.... There is no way you can tell me that you loved your wife before you were introduced to her...

Right. But I am human and not God. God talks about loving people before they are born and before they are created.

And I'll venture to say that it took a few interactions on your part for her to fall in love with you... I share this to say love comes from relationship, no relationship, no love...

Except that God loved the world before there was relationship. No relationship doesn't equal no love with God. It means separation from that love.

Exactly.... it began in relationship... That father can't love a son he never had, but if/when son three comes, he will love that child all the same.

All examples break down at some point. Let me ask you, is the prodigal son about a son that was alive and is now dead, a son that became lost and then became saved? Does that mean the prodigal son was saved, then lost, then saved? Or does the parable break down according to your doctrine?

God loves people that are not his sons. That's what John 3:16 says and Romans.

We have different hermeneutics I supposes. For John 3:16 is conditional,. Romans 8 in unconditional.

Eternal life is conditional. It doesn't say in there that love is conditional.

Romans 8 tells us that separation from the love by those things mentioned in romans 8 is not possible. That is what covenant is about.

Understanding what the conditions apply to is important. For instance let's look again at John 3:16

John 3:16

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
NASU

"For God so loved the world, that"... No condition named there at all. The love is not conditional.

"whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life". There's the condition. Belief is the condition and eternal life is granted to the one who keeps the condition.

Funny you should use this as an example... My wife and I were on our way to a wedding this Saturday and as we were driving down the road, we turned the bend to see a man and his wife who just dump his motorcycle at the bend when he missed the curve because of some gravel on the road from a drive way... I stopped and help them get up from under the bike as well as help them up right the bike... The man was so surprised that I stopped to help him.

Now... how do you want to look at this? That because of the love of God that is within me, I offered this couple assistance when I saw their needs and sacrificed my time and clothes to pick up an 850lb bike off them... or that God used me to give them His love through me to help them in their time of need? I'd say both would be true to me, Now, I don't think they were saved, but they were grateful that I came by when I did. Yet this love is not saving love but temporal love that I shared with them... Had I been thinking, I would have also shared the gospel with them, for let's say they were not believers at the time and I gave them the gospel to hear, if they would have responded, then the love of Christ will then reside within them, just as it does within us. However, maybe this is there beginning of the coming of faith towards them, through and effort of a stranger motivated by He who is within me to love on them in their time of need. [BTW... they were just shaken and not hurt and were able to ride the bike back home.]

It is the love of God in us that motivates us to help! For sure! That's why God sent his Son to help.

Sorry, but I don't see how this fits?

God places the burden of belief upon man. Does he help man believe or does he leave man helpless? The pharisees would place a burden upon a man then not lift one finger to help. Is God like the pharisees in this?

Matt 23:1-5

23 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, 2 saying: " The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; 3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them. 4 " They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.
NASU

Is God unwilling to help some men? Does he place a burden of living standards upon them that he will not help them with?

[Christinme]

Didn't Jesus love John in a different way He loved, say Peter?

So Jesus loves some believers different than other believers?

[Redeemed by Grace]

So Jesus loves some believers different than other believers?

Didn't He ?

[Redeemed by Grace]

Mark...

John 19:26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He *said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"

John 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved *said to Peter, "It is the Lord." So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put his outer garment on (for he was stripped for work), and threw himself into the sea.

Don't you find this peculiar that John is known as the disciple whom Jesus loved? Certainly offers thought that Jesus did have variances to His love....

[Christinme]

Didn't Jesus love John in a different way He loved, say Peter?

So Jesus loves some believers different than other believers?

Didn't He ?

Can you give me quote from scripture that says this?

[Christinme]

Can you give me quote from scripture that says this?

OK I see you provided a quote ... RbG this is John speaking ... Did he say Jesus loved him different ... if anything it would sound like John was the only one Jesus loved, but we know this is not the case. This is the same type reasoning that leads one to believe God/Jesus love unbelievers different/less/not at all.

[Brother Mark]

Mark...

John 19:26 When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby, He *said to His mother, "Woman, behold, your son!"

John 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved *said to Peter, "It is the Lord." So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put his outer garment on (for he was stripped for work), and threw himself into the sea.

Don't you find this peculiar that John is known as the disciple whom Jesus loved? Certainly offers thought that Jesus did have variances to His love....

John writes those things about himself, meaning he recognized the love Jesus had for him. It is why in the same book we can see where John writes of Jesus love for others (i.e. John 3:16). John had come to know and understand the love of God. He was once known as a son of thunder and called by Jesus. I would imagine his temper was pretty harsh! But having experienced fully, the love of Jesus and having received it, it changed him.

I too could describe myself as "the one whom Jesus loved". Would to God all would realize how much God really loves them for then, it would change them!!!!

[Christinme]

Don't you find this peculiar that John is known as the disciple whom Jesus loved? Certainly offers thought that Jesus did have variances to His love....

This makes me very sad ... are we all to get into a discussion of which one of us Jesus loves more ... May it never be.

[Christinme]

I'm willing to be the one God/Jesus loves least.