Is it better to obey God or the Government?

[awestruckchild]

Is submission to crime and violence a Christian trait?

If by "christian" you mean "Christlike", then the answer is yes. Christ submitted to the crime and violence committed against Him. It was not forced on Him. He submitted willingly. You do not have to turn the other cheek, do what you see your Savior doing, or do what He commands. It is each mans choice. We need to let each man make his choice. No man will stand before you or I at the end. He will stand before God. And when He does, all will be brought into the light, and every motive of that mans heart will be seen.

[Colight]

If by "christian" you mean "Christlike", then the answer is yes. Christ submitted to the crime and violence committed against Him. It was not forced on Him.

I dont recall him being mugged by bandits, or some thugs breaking into his tent to rob him..,,
His trials was in relation to who and what he was.

He submitted willingly. You do not have to turn the other cheek, do what you see your Savior doing, or do what He commands. It is each mans choice. We need to let each man make his choice. No man will stand before you or I at the end. He will stand before God. And when He does, all will be brought into the light, and every motive of that mans heart will be seen.

If they are striking because of the faith you, have, I can see your point.
If they are breaking into your home to steal, your point is not really valid.
Again. today they break into your home.. tomorrow your neighbors.. best to stop them on the first pass..
I am sure you would agree with that.

[awestruckchild]

Actually, the thug that stole from Him didn't break into His house because He didn't have one. The thug who stole from Him was one of the ones He broke bread with. I'm not sure this thug stole from the purse because of Who and what He was. I think His motive was just greed for money.

If you have the hearts motive of protecting your neighbor in love, then your motive is good.
He will bring this motive of love to the light and it will stand. Love IS what will stand.

The trust of David comes into play in a way here.
No! Don't touch him!
He wouldn't be doing this unless God told him to!
This man did not come into Davids house to harm him. He threw the rocks outside in broad daylight.

In every instance, it is the motive of our heart that He judges on. If the motive truly is love for our neighbor or our enemy, it will stand as a good work. If the motive was to protect our possessions, it won't stand.

But the good news is that it is always our choice. We may defend our possessions if this is our choice. We may walk in love if this is our choice. In every instance - rocks being thrown at us, being spit on, being spoken harshly to, someone breaking into our house and demanding our coat, someone stealing from us on the sly, someone harming our loved one-
it isn't the specific situation that will matter. It is the motive of our heart that will. This is what each man will be responsible for before Him in the end. He won't be held responsible in front of anyone but God. Our judgements won't matter. It is before Him that every mans works will stand or fall.

[Arrow]

Private property and the basic ability to defend it, is one of the basic cornerstones of freedom.

So you have disregard for what Jesus said about private property? To me, Jesus and His love is the basic cornerstones of freedom.

[Arrow]

What does defending your home have to do with following Jesus..
Nothing.
In fact defending your home is part of providing for your family, which is part of the faith.

.

No it is not.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.
.

Providing means food and clothing.

Having a house over the head of your family is in par with the faith. .

Therefore those without houses don't have faith?

[Arrow]

Actually, the thug that stole from Him didn't break into His house because He didn't have one. The thug who stole from Him was one of the ones He broke bread with. I'm not sure this thug stole from the purse because of Who and what He was. I think His motive was just greed for money.
.

So beautifully put. Thankyou.

I wonder if there are many who want to follow such an example-the way Jesus did it.

[awestruckchild]

What does defending your home have to do with following Jesus..
Nothing.

Actually, this is a true statement.

[awestruckchild]

So beautifully put. Thankyou.

I wonder if there are many who want to follow such an example-the way Jesus did it.

Yes! There are many in here that I have found!
There are also many who try to make a deal to cheat death and who want to try to climb into the sheepfold by another means other than following the Shepherd, but the good news is that you can smell their sweaty fear and desperation, and you can see their violent twisting away from the light and can recall that you once WERE them and that God was powerful enough to overcome, so you can rejoice and leave them to Him and His plan!

[awestruckchild]

Interesting, I guess some how that makes one more en-lighted than the rest of us who believe that ALL scripture is given by God.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:




actually you have strongly hinted at it..

So on top of detaching from those pesky passages that are not in red, there is now a choice rather a demand we should detach from every thing else ( if we want to be a really good christian).



we are talking about some one breaking in..
I have no idea what you are going on about.

I tend to not like the idea that some neighbor of mine is 'too Christian' to stop crime when it occurs to him,
Then those same bandits will attack his neighbors.
To me that would not be covered under love thy Neighbor.

Yes. ALL scripture is given by God.
I honestly am not strongly hinting that to be a good christian one must give up all possessions in their heart. I am simply saying that it is what Jesus said one must do in order to follow Him.

Aren't your possessions yours to do with as you see fit?

Yes. I can clearly see that you tend not to like the idea that a neighbor is too Christlike and so will allow a man to steal from him. My tendency is to not like it also.

[Arrow]

Yes! There are many in here that I have found!
There are also many who try to make a deal to cheat death and who want to try to climb into the sheepfold by another means other than following the Shepherd, but the good news is that you can smell their sweaty fear and desperation, and you can see their violent twisting away from the light and can recall that you once WERE them and that God was powerful enough to overcome, so you can rejoice and leave them to Him and His plan!

You really put things well. You are a true gentleman. God bless you in all you think and do

[awestruckchild]

You really put things well. You are a true gentleman. God bless you in all you think and do

Oh!
God bless you too!
We are putting things well when we simply do and say what we have seen our Father do and say! He put them well!

You've given me a laugh.
My mother will be very pleased to hear that she has raised her daughter to be a true gentleman!
There is no longer for us, male or female, but it's still funny to me! It's hard to get used to!
The world still wants to make that distinction be so important, but it isn't because it won't be when we get to where we now long to be!

You have turned this into a praise thread.
He put all things well!
He says all things well!
Oh!
How precious are the feet of the One who brought the Good News to us!
Oh, taste how good and sweet!!!

[Colight]

Yes. ALL scripture is given by God.
I honestly am not strongly hinting that to be a good christian one must give up all possessions in their heart.order to follow Him.

Christ was speaking with a jew ( and a especially obnoxious legalistic one to boot) in the time of his hypo-static union,
Christ, the king of the Jews is telling this legalistic braggart to sell all he has and follow the King.
If that Jew actually believed that the man he was speaking to was the messiah, it would have been no issue for him.

So to try and apply it to todays gentile Church is confusion.


#1 We cant follow him, for he is not walking around on earth like he was at the time he spoke this, he was not talking in a spiritual sense either.
#2 As part of the gentile Church, on can believe on Christ and be saved with out selling a thing or trying to walk in his footsteps some where in Israel.
#3 One can run the race before us with out selling possessions for our battle is a spiritual one.
#4 I dont view what you have stated to be truth, there fore I will maintain status quo on how I handle my possessions and I will have a wonderful relationship with God in doing so.

Yes. I can clearly see that you tend not to like the idea that a neighbor is too Christlike and so will allow a man to steal from him. My tendency is to not like it also.

No liking it and acting to prevent it are 2 different things.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Standing with force against those who would harm you or your neighbors is a wonderfully Christian thing to do.

[awestruckchild]

Christ was speaking with a jew ( and a especially obnoxious legalistic one to boot) in the time of his hypo-static union,
Christ, the king of the Jews is telling this legalistic braggart to sell all he has and follow the King.
If that Jew actually believed that the man he was speaking to was the messiah, it would have been no issue for him.

So to try and apply it to todays gentile Church is confusion.


#1 We cant follow him, for he is not walking around on earth like he was at the time he spoke this, he was not talking in a spiritual sense either.
#2 As part of the gentile Church, on can believe on Christ and be saved with out selling a thing or trying to walk in his footsteps some where in Israel.
#3 One can run the race before us with out selling possessions for our battle is a spiritual one.
#4 I dont view what you have stated to be truth, there fore I will maintain status quo on how I handle my possessions and I will have a wonderful relationship with God in doing so.





No liking it and acting to prevent it are 2 different things.

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Standing with force against those who would harm you or your neighbors is a wonderfully Christian thing to do.

Yes. He was speaking with an especially obnoxious and legalistic man.

Yes. He was telling this legalistic, swaggering braggart to sell all he had and follow Him.

The next one is trickier...it is possible to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and believe He spoke the truth and to still have a problem with it, as evidenced in the story, here, all around us, and in my very own heart.

No. To try to apply what Jesus said to today's gentile church is never confusion. It clears up confusion.

You can follow a mans teachings even if the man is no longer on earth by averring that what he said is true and good and by modeling your life after what he taught.

Yes. Not liking it and acting to prevent it are two different things. One is willfull.

Standing with force against those who would do you harm is a choice you can make. I don't know if it is a wonderfully christian thing to do or not. It isn't the example Christ gave us and it doesn't fit with what He commands us. It doesn't fit with a man slapping you and giving him your other cheek. You seem to have gotten it to fit with the law, but not to fit with the words in red. Now it is not the law, but the words in red which have become the pesky ones you spoke of.

As for not believing what I have said is true, deciding to continue on as you have been regarding your possessions - a choice you can make.

But honestly, it is simpler than all this.
If the motive in your heart is love, your heart is right before God.
He is the One who uncovers and brings into the light, our hearts motives.
There is no cause for upset if He approves of our motives and He does when we are walking in love towards God, neighbors, enemies.
If you do well, won't He accept you?

I keep telling you that your possessions are yours to do with as you wish.
If another man chooses to do with his own possessions as he wishes, that is his choice as well.

[tea]

John 15:13
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

Standing with force against those who would harm you or your neighbors is a wonderfully Christian thing to do.

This is one of the most abused verse in the bible by those who tend toward more violence than gentleness.

How did Jesus lay down His life?

By encouraging Peter to cut off the guys head instead of just his ear?

No, He laid it down with ABSOLUTELY no violence whatsoever!!!!!!!

[tea]

#1 We cant follow him, for he is not walking around on earth like he was at the time he spoke this, he was not talking in a spiritual sense either.

I can, we can, those who desire to can, but as you say, you can't.

#2 As part of the gentile Church, on can believe on Christ and be saved with out selling a thing or trying to walk in his footsteps some where in Israel.

If you trust in your posessions, or if you are too rich, like the rich young ruler, then perhaps you do need to sell.

#3 One can run the race before us with out selling possessions for our battle is a spiritual one.
.

How do you know? Why are you encouraging people to disobey what He encourages;Luke 12:33 NKJV
'Sell what you have and give alms; provide yourselves money bags which do not grow old, a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches nor moth destroys.'

But I forget, you don't answer questions,perhaps this is part of your faith?