Is it better to obey God or the Government?

[Jemand]

If God says one thing, and the government says another who do we obey.

For example, if the Government says;'Have an obortion.' and God says; 'Do not kill' Whom do you obey?

This goes for all issues of conscience, faith, doctrine, & ethics.

Can someone who knows how, create a poll for me? I am new in here and don't know how to.

Give 2 options in the poll, 1) Obey God, 2) Obey Government.

Thanks

Rom. 13:1. Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
2. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.

1 Peter 2:13. Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
14. or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
15. For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

Acts 4:18. And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
19. But Peter and John answered and said to them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge;

Acts 5:29. But Peter and the apostles answered, "We must obey God rather than men.

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)


The people who are in authority over us have been appointed by God to that position and we are to submit to them and obey them—unless what they are telling us to do explicitly contradicts the Scriptures.

[Colight]

Do you feel we need to obey the government even if they are asking us to disobey God?

Since Christ controls history, and brings to power those who he wills..
would you agree that we are given the government that we deserve?
Would dis-obedience to that Christ given government, be disobedience to Christ?

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

I just feel that since Christ put the ruler over me, it would be best not to 2nd guess that ruler who has authority given to him from Christ himself..

[John 8:32]

Is not complicated...

Heb_13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Unless it contradicts God's commands...

Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

So we obey the human government as long as it does not contradict God's commands, but God supercedes the human government. I don't see any real difficulty here.

[nzyr]

I just want to make the point that the current occupier of the White House is not our "governing authority" in a Biblical sense. He is not what God commands my obedience to.

Do you mean that if someone else was in there he/she could be your governing authority?

[keck553]

No

(15 characters)

[tea]

Since Christ controls history, and brings to power those who he wills..
would you agree that we are given the government that we deserve?
Would dis-obedience to that Christ given government, be disobedience to Christ?

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

I just feel that since Christ put the ruler over me, it would be best not to 2nd guess that ruler who has authority given to him from Christ himself.

The people who are in authority over us have been appointed by God to that position and we are to submit to them and obey them—unless what they are telling us to do explicitly contradicts the Scriptures. .

.
To answer your first question, I believe I deserve hell, so I don't believe '...we are given the government that we deserve.'

To answer your second question I will use your own sentence;'... we are to submit to them and obey them—unless what they are telling us to do explicitly contradicts the Scriptures.

What ever government 'we' have is put there to test my faith.

I am compelled to disobey if the government asks me to go and kill.

[Colight]

.


I am compelled to disobey if the government asks me to go and kill.

Israel was judged by God because they did not kill.

1 sam 15
1 Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the [a]words of the LORD.
2 Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt.
3 Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”

If there is a evil nation and the high court of heaven deemed that nation to be destroyed, he uses his servants that being Government leaders to carry out his judgements.

If God judges a nation to be destroyed, who are we to question his judgements?
If any thing we as Christians should be the BEST and most ELITE soldiers in the service of our God ordained countries.


Saul went against GODS command to destroy these people and their King with every thing they had.
1 sam 15

9 But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep, the oxen, the fatlings, the lambs, and all that was good, and were not willing to destroy them utterly; but everything despised and worthless, that they utterly destroyed.

God considered this Rebellion... and has a few choice words to say on the matter.

23 “For rebellion is as the sin of divination,
And insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of the LORD,
He has also rejected you from being king.”

We are not to be in Rebellion to the leaders God has put over us.
God is more than able to handle any misguided leaders that should rise up.

[tea]

Israel was judged by God because they did not kill.

Yes, but are we Isreal?

We are not to be in Rebellion to the leaders God has put over us.

Was Peter then disobedient to preach the gospel, when the government asked him not to?

God is more than able to handle any misguided leaders that should rise up.

If God is able to do this[I agree whole heartedly], then let Him do it without me dropping bombs!

You can follow the Old Covenant if you like, but then surley you need to call yourself a non christian jew?

[keck553]

You can follow the Old Covenant if you like, but then surley you need to call yourself a non christian jew?

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, (2Ti 3:16)

that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2Ti 3:17)

[Fenris]

Exodus 1:15 And the king of Egypt spoke to the Hebrew midwives, of whom the name of the one was Shiphrah, and the name of the other Puah; 16 and he said: 'When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, ye shall look upon the birthstool: if it be a son, then ye shall kill him; but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.' 17 But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men-children alive.

[HollyRock]

Where there is conflict, OBEY GOD !!!

[dan]

The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ is a different discussion.

But...I don't find it valid for people to use the Nation of Israel as an example of justification for War. God specifically called the Nation of Israel out of Egypt and had specific purposes for each conflict with which they were involved. He was establishing His People in the World demonstrate His Power over the Pagan Nations that the Israelites conquered. That there were wars in the OT doesn't in and of itself justify War in general today.

I disagree.

The OT is the Authoritative Text when it comes to God's Righteousness for the entire world, and it has advice for the conduct of war.

EX 15:3 The Lord is a man of war: Jehovah is his name.

NUM 32:20 And Moses said to them: If you do what you promise, go on well appointed for war before the Lord:
NUM 32:21 And let every fighting man pass over the Jordan, until the Lord overthrow his enemies :
NUM 32:22 And all the land be brought under him, then shall you be blameless before the Lord and before Israel, and you shall obtain the countries that you desire, before the Lord.
NUM 32:23 But if you do not what you say, no man can doubt but you sin against God: and know ye, that your sin shall overtake you.

PS 37:12 The wicked plotteth against the just, and gnasheth upon him with his teeth.
PS 37:13 The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.
PS 37:14 The wicked have drawn out the sword, and have bent their bow, to cast down the poor and needy, and to slay such as be of upright conversation.
PS 37:15 Their sword shall enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.
PS 37:16 A little that a righteous man hath is better than the riches of many wicked.
PS 37:17 For the arms of the wicked shall be broken: but the LORD upholdeth the righteous.

PROV 20:18 [Every] purpose is established by counsel: and with good advice make war.

PROV 24:6 For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors [there is] safety.

ECCLES 3:8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.

As a Christian, we have been told to seek God's Righteousness:

MT 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

MT 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

MT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

[dan]

Well please show me your logic by answering the question;Do you believe that you are obeying Jesus' command; Philippians 4:5 NKJV
'Let your gentleness be known to all men.' by going to war?

Or do you think Jesus was being illogical by the inspiration of Phil 4:5?

No, I don't because one does not demonstrate gentleness by going to war. One would have thought that to be obvious.

Why does a Christian have to demonstrate his gentleness, unless there's a chance that he'll be perceived as something other than gentle?

But, being a Christian is not a, "demonstrate your gentleness all the time", type of endeavor, IMO.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Do you see?

LK 3:14 And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse `any one' wrongfully; and be content with your wages.(The Bible In Basic English)

John The Baptist did not tell the soldiers to give up their profession, which is violence and killing. Do you see?

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

What the saints in heaven hope for and have faith for: that the murderer will be killed before or right after he murders, and with the same weapon.

[keck553]

Amen Dan.

Great exegesis!

[tea]

No, I don't because one does not demonstrate gentleness by going to war. One would have thought that to be obvious.

Why does a Christian have to demonstrate his gentleness, unless there's a chance that he'll be perceived as something other than gentle?

But, being a Christian is not a, "demonstrate your gentleness all the time", type of endeavor, IMO.

MT 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

What I get from what you posted, Dan, is that your understanding God commands christians to sometimes be gentle, and some time to be violent.
This seems like a contradiction.

Now I guess you'll tell me about Jesus clearing the temple, my answer before you get to iot, is ;
1]that we were NOT there, so we don't really know what is between the lines
2]Jesus is God, and He knows exactly how to deal with the hearts and flesh of man.
We DO NOT, and that is why, always, everywhere, and EVERY TIME, we need to obey;Philippians 4:5 NKJV' Let your gentleness be known to all men. '

It's fine Dan, if you choose to disobey, and encourage other to do the same, you will stand before Him one day, and not before me.
I trust you take His commands seriously, and that you are not just seeking to argue, are you?

LK 3:14 And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse `any one' wrongfully; and be content with your wages.

Dan, are you presuming that soldiers were violent men.The scripture DOES NOT tell us this, so if you presume this, it is just from yourself, and not from what your read in the [N.C.] New Covenant.

Again, are you saying Jesus contradicts Himself, saying in one breath, 'love' and in another 'kill, wound, and maim, both innocent and guilty.'?

Even in the quote above are the words;...'Extort from no man by violence,...'

REV 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear:
REV 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

There we go, so if a christian kills by the sword, he will be killed by the sword? That's what you are quoting, read carefully!

What the saints in heaven hope for and have faith for: that the murderer will be killed before or right after he murders, and with the same weapon.

You speak for yourself, and perhaps a few others. My hope has got very little to do with what happens to murderers. My hope is Revel in His glorious presence for ever, as He was faithful in all His ways, so able to bring vengence on the wrongdoers by His own Mighty Arm.

God bless you